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I would like to hear from people who know Sharia law better than i do. While i know that in Islamic law to be able to accuse a man or a woman with adultery and have them punished accordingly you will need 4 witnesses who actually saw the act happen. This was done to make it really hard to accuse anyone of adultery since hte likelihood it happened while 4 people where watching is very unlikely (unless your at mardi gras or something..) ..

Anyway my question is, when did this become applied to rape cases too? Is this actually part of Sharia law ? or is it just screwed up interpretations of politicians?

Maad - the requirement for 4 witnesses is in the case of accusations of adultery against a woman, in the opening verses of Chapter 24 of the Quran.

There is no such injunction, to my knowledge, concerning rape in the Quran.

The Hudood laws in Pakistan - which are hopefully going to be repealed - are a great injustice and insult to Islam in my opinion. They, amongst other things, said that a rape victim was guilty of adultery and subject to the death penalty !!

The Quran is clear that the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes (again Ch24) - so the death penalty is not from the Quran but actually from the Bible, mostly because the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used this law before the verses were revealed and for Jewish adulterers that were subject to Judaic law.

Rape is not adultery, so does not fall into the remit of these Quranic verses.

That said, it appears logical that under sharia the rapist will be at least guilty of adultery/fornication so he should be punished whatever is decided about the rape allegation. Sadly this does not appear to have been the case in Pakistan where there are horrendous stats on the extent of rape in that country!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Maad - the requirement for 4 witnesses is in the case of accusations of adultery against a woman, in the opening verses of Chapter 24 of the Quran.

There is no such injunction, to my knowledge, concerning rape in the Quran.

The Hudood laws in Pakistan - which are hopefully going to be repealed - are a great injustice and insult to Islam in my opinion. They, amongst other things, said that a rape victim was guilty of adultery and subject to the death penalty !!

I am keeping my fingers cross, but it takes too long for Pakistan Gov't to repeal that law.

shafique wrote:The Quran is clear that the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes (again Ch24) - so the death penalty is not from the Quran but actually from the Bible, mostly because the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used this law before the verses were revealed and for Jewish adulterers that were subject to Judaic law.

Rape is not adultery, so does not fall into the remit of these Quranic verses.

TRUE! Most people especially those who believe in bible would like to abolish death penalty. However, for those who aren't believer of the bible implemented death penalty by all means.

shafique wrote:That said, it appears logical that under sharia the rapist will be at least guilty of adultery/fornication so he should be punished whatever is decided about the rape allegation. Sadly this does not appear to have been the case in Pakistan where there are horrendous stats on the extent of rape in that country!

I am hoping that this law will be repealed. My heart broke for those rape victims in pakistan. They're the victims and yet they're being punished.

double post

Shafique

Why are Muslim women on their cycle foridden from reciting the koran, touching the koran and attending mosque?

valkyrie wrote:Shafique

Why are Muslim women on their cycle foridden from reciting the koran, touching the koran and attending mosque?

Val, I'd like to answer the question...Shaf, if you see anything wrong in what I write please correct me - or if I leave anything out, well, you know what to do .


Why are Muslim women on their cycle forbidden from reciting the quran:

Muslim women who are on their cycle are not forbidden from reciting quran. They are allowed to do so as long as they do not touch the actual holy book itself (the quran). The matter has been debated and the conclusion was that a woman may recite the quran while on her mens for the following reasons:

a.she is learning the quran
b. she is teaching the quran to others, or
c. because she does not want to forget what she already knows from the quran.

So basically, she is allowed to recite it, even if she is on her mens.


Why are Muslim women forbidden from touching the Quran while on their cycle:

Muslim women on their mens are allowed to touch the Quran if she needs to for educational purposes...or any other valid reason. However, she cannot touch it if she is not covering her hands... meaning, she should be wearing gloves, or use a cloth or scarf to keep her bear hands from touching the actual quran itself.

Why are Muslim women on their cycle forbidden from attending the Mosque:

Muslim women are not allowed to be seated in any area that is used for supplication/worship to Allah if they are on their cycle, but they are allowed to enter the mosque itself.



The reason why for all the situations above is because when a woman is on her cycle - because the ... blood from menstruation is considered impure and breaks the woman's wuduu - she is considered impure for that moment.

duplicate post - sorry

valkyrie wrote:Shafique

Why are Muslim women on their cycle foridden from reciting the koran, touching the koran and attending mosque?

Bushra summed up the position well.

Women are exempt from performing the formal prayers and fasts during their periods, and marital relations are also forbidden in this period.

Going to the mosque is allowed - she takes the children there so they can pray, and also listen to the sermon. However, she will just not take part in the prayer (I think they sit at the back and not where the prayers take place).

Some women and scholars say that one should avoid the recitation out of respect for the Quran. Muslims believe the claims of the Quran to be the literal word of God, and wash themselves as per the formal prayers before reciting/reading the Quran. One is ritually pure when praying and this respect is also shown to the Quran. Therefore, by extension, if a lady is not 'clean' for the purposes of prayer, then they feel ill-at-ease at touching and reading the Quran. Some ladies and scholars say that the recitation is ok, but avoid touching it with their bare hands.

Lastly let me clarify what 'clean' means here - prayer needs to be made when one is in complete control of ones senses and also physically clean. The exemption to women is a concession for them and not a 'punishment' or banishment, at least in my eyes. During the period, a lady is not considered physically clean, I think, and some experience discomfort/pain.

Cheers,
Shafique

Geez, I'm biting my tongue.

Would like to add that all Muslims are required to cleanse themselves after s.e.x. as well, before they can pray and fast. It is to sanitize the body and in that state you can do your prayers or fast. The period is considered unsanitary as well and when the period is over a woman is supposed to cleanse herself in the same way. It is not considered a reflection of inferiority of the female race as it also means that a woman is the bearer of life and in Islam it is considered that heaven lies beneath the feet of a woman who has borne children. Women are obligated to make up for the fasts they have missed during their period, however, women are not obligated to make up for the missed prayers (there would be too many to make up). There is an inevitable lack of acceptance of this concept in non-muslims as they consider this a bias against women.

From a biological standpoint, menstruation is certainly not dirty. It is simply the uterine lining shedding when there has been no implantation of fertilised eggs. If secretions from the female reproductive system makes a woman unclean, then women must be considered dirty every day, because the female reproductive system is cleaning itself on a daily basis. My argument is that it is easy for a woman to keep clean every day no matter which part of her cycle she is on - so I don't understand why she needs to be excluded from some religious practices at a certain time in her cycle. That's just my opinion though, and of course I can't argue with the words that come from some people's gods.

kanelli wrote:From a biological standpoint, menstruation is certainly not dirty. It is simply the uterine lining shedding when there has been no implantation of fertilised eggs. If secretions from the female reproductive system makes a woman unclean, then women must be considered dirty every day, because the female reproductive system is cleaning itself on a daily basis. My argument is that it is easy for a woman to keep clean every day no matter which part of her cycle she is on - so I don't understand why she needs to be excluded from some religious practices at a certain time in her cycle. That's just my opinion though, and of course I can't argue with the words that come from some people's gods.

I guess your tongue got tired of you biting it...


Religiously speaking, there is a difference between the daily secretions and those during the time of menstruation and s e xual activities...

The daily secretions are not considered, in Islam, impure and will not break the woman's wudu'/purity.

The fluids that result from any se xual activity are, however, considered to be impure and break the woman...as well as mans wudu'/purity.

The reason for why a woman is considered impure while menstruating is because any blood is considered to be impure in Islam, and will break the persons wudu'.

This can be anything from blood that comes from a cut on the knee, to blood from an animal that has just been killed. The only type of bood that is considered to be pure, however, is the blood that remains in the veins of the individual or animal as well as any blood that is in meats, (liver, heart, kidney...etc), as long as the animal was slaughtered following the Islamic ways.



I hope that clears things up a bit K

kanelli wrote:From a biological standpoint, menstruation is certainly not dirty. It is simply the uterine lining shedding when there has been no implantation of fertilised eggs. If secretions from the female reproductive system makes a woman unclean, then women must be considered dirty every day, because the female reproductive system is cleaning itself on a daily basis. My argument is that it is easy for a woman to keep clean every day no matter which part of her cycle she is on - so I don't understand why she needs to be excluded from some religious practices at a certain time in her cycle. That's just my opinion though, and of course I can't argue with the words that come from some people's gods.

As far as I can recall, Bushra's reply to this is right.

bleeding, in any form, negates wudu.

Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it.

Yup Bushra is right. So if I bite my lip and bleed I need to do wudu again in order to be able to pray. Question is, why is blood considered impure? hmmm ....

Thats one for shafiqe... I don't have the knowledge to answer.

PrettyPenny wrote:Yup Bushra is right. So if I bite my lip and bleed I need to do wudu again in order to be able to pray. Question is, why is blood considered impure? hmmm ....

Blood is considered impure because of the contents in it. While blood transfers nutrients to cells, it also removes the waste products from the tissue cells. Blood carries organisms of various diseases and bacteria as well...


That is what I know, from my knowledge, Im sure Shaf can be more in depth about it -- or correct me if I am wrong.

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#221

I'll have to look up the references, but my understanding in regards to blood is that if only a small amount is shed - say through biting one's lip or picking a scab, then the wudu is not necessarily broken.

However, this question is best answered when one considers why we clean ourselves before prayer and then one's concious will guide us whether we should perform the abulution again.

Prayer is a time we set aside to present ourselves to God and literally stand in His presence and address Him and implore for forgiveness etc.

In our secular lives, when we have to meet an important person - be that a king, politician, boss of our company or (for you young 'uns out there) a prospective date - we take the time and effort to ensure we are presentable. At the very least we ensure we are clean.

Now imagine that we are presenting ourselves to the most important Being - one that created us and the universe.

Cleanliness of the body is just symbolic - but symbolic of respect. We also try and clean our minds so that we can concentrate on our communication with God.

In this light - perhaps we can understand why the instructions are to re-clean oneself when one becomes dirty again - be it from external dirt or bodily fluids.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, but my quote on menstration views it as an illness .. really that was the part that I sought an answer to.

valkyrie wrote:Ok, but my quote on menstration views it as an illness .. really that was the part that I sought an answer to.

If someone is not well, we say they have an illness. People who are ill are normally excused from day to day activities which are strenuous - eg if you are at school and aren't well you are excused from sport.

Would it be wrong therefore to consider mensturation as an 'illness' for some women? I.e. that they aren't completely well or normal wellbeing during the menses (I know we'll have roller skating women advertising tampax thrown in as examples of the contrary )

What's the issue with making things easy for women who have their periods?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, missed your informative posts, i do not participate lately, i'm just a watcher.

I have a comment on your below post.

shafique wrote:The Quran is clear that the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes (again Ch24) - so the death penalty is not from the Quran but actually from the Bible, mostly because the Holy Prophet, pbuh, used this law before the verses were revealed and for Jewish adulterers that were subject to Judaic law.

I totally agree with you on the part of the 10 lashes, but... I belive this is for the single man and women, not for the married ones.
So punishment for the adultery commited by a married man and woman is to stone them.

I recall the story of the lady that got pragnent from adultery and went to the prophet PBUH for the punishment and he asked her to come after she give birth and then she came to him, and he asked her to come again after she finish breast feeding him (2 years) then she came back to him and ... i forgot the end but she was stonned in the end.

Again, as usual in religious matters, my contribution might be right or wrong.. only God is rightous all the time

cheers

yshimy - I have to disagree with you about the stoning.

The times when stoning was prescribed as punishment by the Holy Prophet, pbuh, fall into two categories:

1. punishments before the Quranic verse was revealed, and therefore the Prophet, pbuh, used the Biblical punishments (in Torah)

2. punishments which related to transgressors who were Jewish and who were presented to the Prophet, pbuh, for his judgement. He judged them against the Torah.

I have been told (I really can't think how I can independently verify this), that there are no instances of non-Jewish adulterers being stoned on the order of the Prophet, pbuh, after this particular verse of the Quran was revealed.

The Quran does not make a distinction between single or married adulterers.

I'm not sure whether Arabic has the same distinction, but adultery in English means that one of the participants is married. Fornication is a separate act when both are single.

I know there are 'scholars' that bring up the arguments you have presented. But there are many scholars that have got things wrong - eg. that there is a punishment of blasphemy in Islam (there isn't - no one was punished for insulting the Prophet, pbuh, in time) and some say that apostacy is a crime - i.e. renouncing Islam is punishable by death (when again, the Quran is clear there is no compulsion in religion and also documents that people joined Islam in the morning, renounced in the evening and repeated the next day - none of these guys were ever punished).

Therefore, unless I can be shown otherwise, I side with the scholars that state that the Quran's punishment for adultery is the one that should be followed under Sharia.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf,
Thanks for the reply.

After checking alot of reliable resources, i came to conculsion that there are 2 different punishments as stated before.
1) for the Unmarried man and woman, which is 100 lashes to each.
2) For Married man or woman (as they have a spouse and can sexually relief themselves with) is stonning.

My sources are plenty, but i would mention Sheikh Yusuf al Qaradawi who is one of the most prominent scholars and alot others.

Anyway,i found alot of arabic websites, and this is the only english source i have.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... 9503548032

Thank you shaf, long time since i did research for such topics online

Will the 100 lashes be in one day or 3 lashes a day?

How is the punishment (lashes) being carried out? 100 lashes in one sitting i think the person will die.

Not really sure..


Worth to mention, the punishment of adultry was used only once during prophet era due to the very tight rules for it to be applied (4 eye witnesses) and i'll not get into the details of what type of witness can we counted in islam there are books only to identify who is eligable to witness.

The only incident was the story i mentiond before, the lady confessed.
She was stoned. for more research the lady called "Al Ghamedeyah"

yshimy - thanks for the link. I'll also do some research and check out some references.

Wikipedia has a page on hadith which mention stoning - all of the incidents refer to people who confessed adultery to the Prophet, pbuh, himself. Many of the instances are of Jews, but there are certainly hadith about muslim adulterers being stoned - but it isn't clear from the hadith whether the Quranic punishment had been revealed or not.

Interestingly, the Quran does not mention stoning as a punishment at all.

Wasalaam,
Shafique