Eh - Jews Responsible For Killing Jesus?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Jan 31, 2010
I'm just pointing out that the New Testament explicitly blames Christ's crucifixion on rulers in power at the time.

But I'm sure you knew of this verse beforehand because you would never pontificate about the Bible.

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Jan 31, 2010
Are you in the process of doing a flip-flop?

I asked what YOU believe - do you believe that Matthew was lying when he said Pilate was NOT to blame, or do you believe that Christians who put the blame on Pilate are wrong and Matthew was right?


shafique wrote:Hey, perhaps I wasn't being clear.

We can go into the 'WHY' of you chose the option of either 'Jews were responsible for killing Jesus, not Pilate' or 'Pilate was responsible for killing Jesus, not the Jews'. I can't see how you could choose 'both were responsible' as there seems to be no overlap.

First you need to tell us which of the two camps you belong to.

Who do YOU believe was responsible for killing Jesus?
a. Jews
b. Pilate

(It appears you are laying the foundations for a flip-flop and will come up with an excuse for why Matthew is wrong to absolve Pilate and put the responsibility only on the Jews - but I don't want to assume anything, you need to tell us first what you believe.)

Cheers,
Shafique


(I'm sure I hear flip flops in the distance)
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Jan 31, 2010
Let me remind you of this quote:

event horizon wrote:No, claiming that Jews killed Jesus is not anti-Semitic. Why would it be?


So, Matthew isn't anti-semitic for claiming Jews killed Jesus.

But the question is - do you believe Matthew was RIGHT to blame Jews for killing Jesus and absolving Pilate? (Paul also says Jews killed Jesus, as we have seen).

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Jan 31, 2010
Hey, I'm just pointing out that the New Testament lays the blame of Jesus' death squarely on the feet of the authorities/powers of the time.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 01, 2010
Does your copy of the New Testament not have the following verses in it? Does your translation NOT absolve Pilate and put the responsibility on the Jews?

shafique wrote:Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."


Do YOU not believe these verses from Matthew are true? (Wow, that would be a major flip-flop)

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Shafique
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 01, 2010
event horizon wrote:Hey, I'm just pointing out that the New Testament lays the blame of Jesus' death squarely on the feet of the authorities/powers of the time.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 01, 2010
shafique wrote:Does your copy of the New Testament not have the following verses in it? Does your translation NOT absolve Pilate and put the responsibility on the Jews?

shafique wrote:Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."


Do YOU not believe these verses from Matthew are true? (Wow, that would be a major flip-flop)


Having trouble reading, or trouble making up your mind what you believe?

Image
:mrgreen:
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 01, 2010
I'm just pointing out the facts - the NT explicitly blames the powers that be for Jesus' death. Your account from Matthew is simply descriptive.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 01, 2010
Yeah, descriptive of the fact the Bible absolves Pilate and blames the Jews.

I always had you down for wearing jack-boots, not flip flops. :)

But hey, why the reluctance to let us know who you think is responsible for killing Jesus - either 'not Pilate' as Matthew says, or Pilate as the 21st century Christians now believe?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 02, 2010
Well, the Bible says the rulers were responsible for Jesus' death. I am free to agree or disagree with what the Jewish crowd said.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 02, 2010
Ok - so you and other Christioans are free to believe the Bible when it says the responsibility for killing Jesus is not with PilateN but on the heads of Jews and their children.

Matthew says Pilate was not responsible for the killing of Jesus.

I totally agree you have the choice between believing Matthew or blaming Pilate.

The question was though - what is your choice?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 02, 2010
I totally agree you have the choice between believing Matthew or blaming Pilate.


No troll, that's not what I said.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 02, 2010
So, do you agree with Matthew who says Pilate is not responsible for killing Jesus and puts the blame on the Jewz?

You argued that this is not anti-smitic, are you now flip flopping?

Was Matthew correct to absolve Pilate?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 03, 2010
No, Matthew does not put the blame of Christ's death on the Jews.

He quotes a group of Jews who make that claim.

Please, just pass a basic reading comprehension course before pontificating.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 04, 2010
Why are you being coy about your beliefs?

Do you agree with Matthew that Pilate was NOT responsible for killing Jesus, washed his hands of the affair and that the responsibility lies with non-Romans?

I trust your English comprehension is sufficient to understand the question and recognise that the is answer is either yes, or no (but feel free to let us know if you disagree with Mathew why you don't agree)


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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 05, 2010
I agree with the New Testament that the powers in charge were responsible for Jesus' death.

Obviously, you and your rabbi were/are unaware of the verse I'm alluding to (big surprise). So that kind of throws a monkey wrench in your 'brilliant' analysis of the crucifixion.

Let me know when you finally get around to reading Paul's letters and then I'll take your insights a little more seriously.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 05, 2010
Dsoes your copy of the Bible have Matthew NOT saying that Pilate washed his hands and was not responsible for killing Jesus.?

Or do you agree with those who say Matthew was wrong?

Why so coy about your belief about the Bible?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 06, 2010
No, my Bible does not say Jesus was the speaker in the epistle of James. Then again, I don't get my knowledge of Christianity from dot com websites.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 06, 2010
Your Bible does not contain the Gospel of Matthew!!!???

Oh what a tangled web you weave to avoid answering questions about what the Bible says. :)

I guess that had you been in the garden of Gethsemane you would have denied knowing Jesus more than 3 times!!!

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 22, 2010
Not like you eh to leave a question unanswered ( ;) )- but seriously, does your Bible really not contain Matthew's words which absolve Pilate of blame for Jesus' death - or do you just choose to ignore this part of the Bible?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 22, 2010
Your questions have been answered since page one of this thread....
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 23, 2010
bump:
Are you imagining things again eh?

Was my question too difficult for you?

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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 23, 2010
You keep changing your questions (after I correct you on the facts) that I'm having a difficult time understanding what you're *now* asking.

A simple read of this thread will reveal that you asked several questions that were wrong and I corrected you on - and then you changed your question and asked again - claiming that the Bible 'categorically' blames the Jews for Jesus' death (remember that one? that was good for a laugh or two), that Matthew says the Jews took responsibility for Christ's death when, in reality, I informed you that Matthew *records* what Jews in a crowd had said, etc, etc,.

So, what is your current question? And will you change your question as soon as I correct your mistaken understanding of the New Testament?
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 23, 2010
The question is quite simple:

Does your copy of the Bible have Matthew NOT saying that Pilate washed his hands and was not responsible for killing Jesus.?

Or do you agree with those who say Matthew was wrong?

Why so coy about your belief about the Bible?


The original question (in the first post of this thread) was also about the verses from Matthew which say that Pilate wasn't to blame:

It appears that our friend eh believes that the Biblical account of Jesus' trial is correct and he believes that the Romans were not responsible for killing of Jesus, but rather it was the responsiblity of 'Jews'.

This view is nowadays viewed as anti-semitic, but kudos to eh for having the courage of his convictions and sticking with the Bible. (I'm assuming he would have renounced the anti-semitic literal interpretation if he was one of the 21st century christians who now blame Pilate)


I fully understand why eh maintains his belief - as the Bible is pretty clear on the subject.
Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.


However, 21st century Christians argue that the above is not correct and it is actually Pilate who is responsible.

The Apostle's Creed states:
..He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.


Which notably does not absolve the jews of responsibility for the killing - as it only states that Pilate was the means by which the Jews killed Jesus. Matthew clearly states that Jesus was killed despite the best efforts of Pilate to get him released.


So, whilst I disagree with eh over many points - I can't fault him for sticking to the literal message of the Bible and not blaming Pilate for killing Jesus.

That said, if I've misunderstood eh's non-renunciation of the verse above, I'm sure he will clarify his belief.


Happy to clarify.

Now I await your answer.

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Shafique
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 23, 2010
Oh dear - then I've answered your questions on the first page of the thread if you're quoting the OP.

The NT is not categorical in saying that the Jews killed Jesus - Paul blames the rulers in power for Jesus' death in a verse that neither you nor your rabbi you quoted were aware of before you both began pontificating on the Bible. Additionally, Paul elsewhere says that Pilate, not the Jews, crucified Jesus.

Matthew does not say the Jews are to be blamed for Jesus' death - Matthew records a group of Jews in a crowd who make that statement (that's just poor reading on your part and the Rabbi probably can't be blamed for that).

A full reading of the New Testament makes it rather absurd to claim that the NT is any more anti-Semitic than the Hebrew Bible - the Bible blames the Hebrews for all sorts of things, etc:

Amos 2:6-16 (New International Version)

Judgment on Israel
6 This is what the LORD says:
"For three sins of Israel,
even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}.
They sell the righteous for silver,
and the needy for a pair of sandals.

7 They trample on the heads of the poor
as upon the dust of the ground
and deny justice to the oppressed.
Father and son use the same girl
and so profane my holy name.

8 They lie down beside every altar
on garments taken in pledge.
In the house of their god
they drink wine taken as fines.

9 "I destroyed the Amorite before them,
though he was tall as the cedars
and strong as the oaks.
I destroyed his fruit above
and his roots below.

10 "I brought you up out of Egypt,
and I led you forty years in the desert
to give you the land of the Amorites.

11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons
and Nazirites from among your young men.
Is this not true, people of Israel?"
declares the LORD.

12 "But you made the Nazirites drink wine
and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

13 "Now then, I will crush you
as a cart crushes when loaded with grain.

14 The swift will not escape,
the strong will not muster their strength,
and the warrior will not save his life.

15 The archer will not stand his ground,
the fleet-footed soldier will not get away,
and the horseman will not save his life.

16 Even the bravest warriors
will flee naked on that day,"
declares the LORD.


Now, since all of your misconceptions/questions have been addressed (since the first page), I'm left wondering what you are still griping about.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 24, 2010
event horizon wrote:The NT is not categorical in saying that the Jews killed Jesus -


The NT is categorical that Pilate is not to blame.

Matthew 27:23-26

Pilate asked, "Why do you want me to kill him? What wrong has he done?" But all the people shouted louder, "Kill him on a cross!" Pilate saw that he could do nothing to make the people change. And he saw that the people were becoming upset. So Pilate took some water and washed his hands so that all the people could see. Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death." Then Pilate freed Barabbas. Pilate told some soldiers to beat Jesus with whips. Then Pilate gave Jesus to the soldiers to be killed on a cross.


Do you agree with Matthew that Pilate was not to blame and that the responsibility lies with the Jews who say 'We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death'.


The question is simple - do you agree Pilate is not to blame and those responsible are those who take responsibility (the Jews who say this above)?

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Shafique
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 24, 2010
Please, click on the first page - all of your issues/questions/concerns have been addressed/corrected or answered.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 24, 2010
I see you are in denial.

I searched in vain for where on the first page you explain whether you reject Matthew's clear statement that Pilate is NOT to blame for killing Jesus.

I agreed with you that accepting the Biblical account is not anti-Semitic.

Let me repeat the question for you:

The question is simple - do you agree Pilate is not to blame and those responsible are those who take responsibility (the Jews who say this above)?




Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 25, 2010
Do you agree with Matthew that Pilate was not to blame and that the responsibility lies with the Jews who say 'We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death'.


Once again, Matthew did not say that Pilate was not to blame and the Jews were - he records a group of Jews in a crowd who *themselves* make this claim.

Jeez, I keep correcting your questions and you keep repeating them.
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Re: eh - Jews responsible for killing Jesus? Feb 25, 2010
I have asked you whether your Bible contains Matthew's words or not.

Perhaps your Bible is in ancient Greek and you haven't looked at the translation?

Matthew says clearly that Pilate does not take the blame for the killing of Jesus. Here are Pilate's words (again):

Then Pilate said, "I am not guilty of this man's death. You are the ones that are doing it!" All the people answered, "We will be responsible for his death. We accept for ourselves and for our children any punishment for his death."



How is 'I am not guilty' equal to 'I am guilty'????

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