Eh- Are You A Born Sinner Or A "Born Again"

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Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 11, 2010
Eh Lets go back to the full story of Prophet Adam, the first man on the Earth...

This is the muslim version...http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1190/viewall/ which gives the believers ability to reason.. But I struggle with the christian version..Help me please...

After God cursed Adam and Eve and casts them out of the Garden of Eden, God makes a very powerful prophetic statement. Here is what He says direct to the devil:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." (Genesis 3:15)

God the Father, in this statement, was foretelling of Jesus coming to our earth to be crucified for all of our sins. In this crucifixion, Jesus would defeat Satan and any stronghold he has on people. This is what God meant when He said that Jesus shall bruise his head.

Satan was defeated once and for all at the cross!
However, God also states that Satan would bruise the heel of Jesus, which occurred when He was crucified. Due to the position and weight of the human body when crucified, the heels are bruised - which is exactly what happened to Jesus when He was crucified.


http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Adam-and-Eve.html


Come on tell us...Since you crucified :wink: Jesus.., Are you now free from sins or still stay born sinners?

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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Well, the NT says that sinners are guilty of re-crucifying Jesus. So, you tell me.
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Well, the NT says that sinners are guilty of re-crucifying Jesus. So, you tell me.


Who tells them that they were sinners?
Why should the sinners be guilty of re-rucifying Jesus? if they were sinners? :lol:

I mean if Jesus is the son of God then I would say... what sort of a God is he that he cannot beat the sinners on Earth? Instead the sinners curicifies the god... and that the son of the God the holly spirit allows a bloody death to himself?

Is satan stronger to kill the son of God Eh?..the holly almighty spirit...

Care to answer all my question so that it all makes sense...Since you are proud christian the crusader, you should be able to reason...
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Eh convey my greetings to the author,.. the convert from islam to christianity...

I found that the strange teachings about God that one finds throughout the Bible are completely and unequivocally missing from the Quran.

For the sake of brevity, only a few examples illustrating this point shall be given.

The New International Version of Genesis 3:8-11, reads,

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?” 10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” 11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”


Here, God is pictured as walking in the garden in the cool of the day. What is even more astonishing is that Adam and Eve were able to hide from God and he had to ask, “Where are you?” If a human is able to hide from Him in the garden, how is it that this Lord is going to have knowledge of the sins that people commit? It would be difficult for any human to gender in his heart the kind of love and fear of God that he should have when he believes that his God is so faulty and weak that an event like this could occur to him.

In Genesis 32:24-28,[1] there is the story and literal description of Jacob wrestling with and defeating God. In verse 28, it says, “You [Jacob] have wrestled with God and with men, and you have won.” In other words, the creator of the universe whom mankind is expected to worship and submit to was defeated by a mere mortal in a wrestling match.

The Old Testament even pictures God as one who intended to do evil but then repented. Exodus 32:14 states, “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people” (King James Version). It would not be surprising for anyone to turn away from God and not consider Him worthy of worship if He himself has to repent from His own evil.[2]

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/536/

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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
I think it's called 'sacrifice'. Parents sacrifice for their children if they are loving parents.

Perhaps you would see that as a weakness - others would see that as a strength.

As for God and Christianity. God loves all people unconditionally. That means God's love for you is not dependent on whether you believe in him or not.

This contrasts with Islam where Allah only loves those who believe in him and his prophet. That is conditional love.

So, from your perspective, God making a sacrifice for his children does sound absurd. I agree.

Christians see this differently and understand that God making a sacrifice is a sign of his unconditional love for humanity. Just as a good parent would make a sacrifice for his or her child, God acts out of kindness and sacrifices himself for the benefit of humanity.

It simply boils down to whether you want a God that loves you only if you believe in him and only comes down to intervene in human affairs to wipe out cities or help Muhammad gain more wives or believing in a God that will love you no matter what you do in life and one you know has loved you so much that he has made sacrifices of his own.

And a debate explaining my position better -

The concept of God in Islam and Christianity:

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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Oh dear, eh is off on one of his orientalist islamophobic cuts and pastes again.

God unconditionally loving mankind is a central part of Islam - it is part of Him being 'Raheem' which means providing all necessities without having being asked - including love. This is usually translated as 'gracious". His next attribute is 'Raheem' - which is 'Merciful', but which means He rewards good works or actions.

The orientalist view that Islam's God is any different from the one you use to excuse killing of civilians by Israelites or the Biblical God who curses a fig tree for not having any fruit is a bit weird.

That said, you do insist on having quaint, out dated views. I suggest you consult Prof Hans Kung on the subject again before quoting discredited ideas. But then again, it did make laugh.

(But your also ignoring the fact that even Christians have to do good actions - otherwise their faith is dead - ii.e. They too are rewarded and punished if they follow or don't follow the will of God)

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Shafique
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Oh dear, I see shafique is once again off on one of his tangents.

I didn't say that Christians could sin as much as they wanted and be saved. I said that God's love for us is unconditional - that God also loves unbelievers and sinners, just as he loves those who believe in him and do righteous works.

This contrasts sharply with Allah in the Koran whose love for humanity is conditional - Allah only loves those who believe in him.

That's why many former Muslims are drawn to Christianity and embrace Christianity's all-loving God who makes sacrifices for his children and who loves all of his children the same.

The god of the Koran would never put himself on the cross and suffer torment for the sins of humanity. The god of the Koran does not love all people the same - as is clearly stated over and over again in the Koran.

God in the New Testament, however, does love all. The New Testament says that God is love. And the passage is not an isolated, contradictory verse in a sea of hatred, like many oft-quoted passages in the Koran.

The God in the New Testament repeatedly says that he loves all and that his love is unconditional. Like a parent who will love his or her child no matter what their child does. God loves all, sinners and saints, disbelievers and life-long Christians.

That isn't to say that God, like a parent, won't be disappointed when their child veers off the straight and narrow or won't punish their child. But God, just like a parent, still loves his children. On the other hand, in Islam, Allah only loves you if you are a believer - Allah's love is very conditional.

Part 2 of the video
(if you've been following along):

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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Well we agree that punishes sinners and rewards those who follow His laws. God also loves all creations.

So what's with the repetition/pasting of orientalist views of Islam?

Did you not look up what Prof Kung has to say?
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 12, 2010
Here's a great response from Dr. Craig to a question from a reader coincidentally overlapping many of the points he raises in the videos I posted and addresses the point shafique addressed:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=7421

Dr. Craig responds:

Thanks for your thoughtful questions, Kevin! I so enjoy talking with Muslims about these mutually important issues.

For readers who haven't listened to my debate with Shabir Ally, permit me to provide some background by reproducing here the argument from my opening speech:

That brings us to my second contention, that the Muslim concept of God is rationally objectionable. Now in claiming this, I'm not trying to put anybody down or attack someone personally. I'm just saying that it seems to me that the Islamic conception of God has real problems which render it rationally objectionable. Let me share just one of those deficits, namely: Islam has a morally deficient concept of God.

We've seen that Muslims and Christians agree that God by definition is the greatest conceivable being and that besides being all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, and so forth, the greatest conceivable being must also be morally perfect. That means that God must be a loving and gracious being. Therefore, God, as the perfect being, must be all-loving.

And this is exactly what the Bible affirms. The Bible says,

"God is love, . . . In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His son to be the sacrifice for our sins" (I John 4.8, 10).

Or again it says,

"God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5.8).

Jesus taught God's unconditional love for sinners. We see this in his parables about the prodigal son and the lost sheep, in his practice of table fellowship with the immoral and unclean, and in his sayings like those of the Sermon on the Mount. He said, for example,

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends his rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, . . . what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5.43-48)

The love of the Heavenly Father is impartial, universal, and unconditional.

What a contrast with the God of the Qur'an! According to the Qur'an, God does not love sinners. This fact is emphasized repeatedly and consistently like a drumbeat throughout the pages of the Qur'an. Just listen to the following passages:

"God loves not the unbelievers" (III. 33)
"God loves not the impious and sinners" (II. 277)
"God loves not evildoers" (III. 58)
"God loves not the proud" (IV. 37)
"God loves not transgressors" (V. 88)
"God loves not the prodigal" (VI. 142)
"God loves not the treacherous" (VIII. 59)
"God is an enemy to unbelievers" (II. 99)

Over and over again the Qur'an declares that God does not love the very people whom the Bible says God loves so much that He sent His Son to die for them!

Now this may seem paradoxical in light of the Qur'an's calling God "al-Rahman al-Rahim"--the All-Merciful--until you realize that according to the Qur'an what God's mercy really cashes out to is that if you believe and do righteous deeds, then God can be counted on to overlook your sins and reward your good works. Thus, the Qu'ran promises,

"Work and God will surely see your work." (IX. 105)

"Every soul shall be paid in full for what it has earned." (II. 282)

"Those who believe and do deeds of righteousness and perform the prayer and pay the alms--their wage awaits them with the Lord." (II. 278)

According to the Qur'an God's love is thus reserved only for those who earn it
. It says,

"To those who believe and do righteousness, God will assign love." (XIX 97).

So the Qur'an assures us of God's love for the God-fearing and the good-doers; but He has no love for sinners and unbelievers. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be earned. The Muslim God only loves those who first love Him. His love thus rises no higher than the love which Jesus said even tax-collectors and unbelievers exhibit.

Now don't you think this is an inadequate conception of God? What would you think of a parent who said to his children, "If you measure up to my standards and do as I say, then I will love you"? Some of you have had parents like that, who didn't love you unconditionally, and you know the emotional scars you bear as a result. As the greatest conceivable being, the most perfect being, the source of all goodness and love, God's love must be unconditional and impartial. Therefore, the Islamic conception of God seems to me to be morally deficient. I therefore cannot rationally accept it.


The article also continues, so it's recommended to read the link.



Part 3/11 of the debate


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI4qusp6 ... re=related

Craig really lays down the ownage on Badawi - again, highly recommended to click on the youtube link and watch for yourself.
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 13, 2010
Now what did I tell you about just quoting guys instead of addressing the simple point that the orientalist view of Islam is outated now.

God tells us His attributes in the Quran and we don't have your luxury of rejecting what God says in our scripture - as you seem to be doing by blaming Pilate when Matthew says he was not reponsible.

I asked you to look up what Prof Kung has to say on the subject on whether God of Muslims is any different from the God of Jesus and Moses - but it appears you can't handle the truth!
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 13, 2010
Just a clarification eh - does your theology state that God unconditionally loves religious fanatics who kill civilians and rape virgins, or who blow themselves up in cafes?

Will He not punish these terrorists that you condone(if they do these crimes in the name of God)?

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Shafique
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 13, 2010
shafique wrote:Just a clarification eh - does your theology state that God unconditionally loves religious fanatics who kill civilians and rape virgins, or who blow themselves up in cafes?

Will He not punish these terrorists that you condone(if they do these crimes in the name of God)?

Cheers
Shafique


Nice straw-man there.

Will a parent stop loving their child even though the child becomes a Muslim? Errh, no.

Just because a good parent will unconditionally love their children doesn't mean that a parent won't be disappointed or punish their child if they are disobedient. What it does mean is that a parent will never stop loving their children.

Perhaps you're confused over what William Lane Craig actually wrote and that is why you're claiming that he is regurgitating previous views of Islam.

To be clear, Craig doesn't say that the God of the NT won't punish sinners or that God loves the actions of sinners.

Craig is saying that God's love is unconditional and he contrasts the God of the NT with Allah in the Koran, whom he says is morally deficient - Allah only loves those who love him back (by believing in him, etc).
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 13, 2010
shafique wrote:Now what did I tell you about just quoting guys instead of addressing the simple point that the orientalist view of Islam is outated now.

God tells us His attributes in the Quran and we don't have your luxury of rejecting what God says in our scripture - as you seem to be doing by blaming Pilate when Matthew says he was not reponsible.

I asked you to look up what Prof Kung has to say on the subject on whether God of Muslims is any different from the God of Jesus and Moses - but it appears you can't handle the truth!


First of all, the majority of Muslims who believe in abrogation would beg to disagree.

Secondly, WLC already addresses what you wrote:

Now this may seem paradoxical in light of the Qur'an's calling God "al-Rahman al-Rahim"--the All-Merciful--until you realize that according to the Qur'an what God's mercy really cashes out to is that if you believe and do righteous deeds, then God can be counted on to overlook your sins and reward your good works. Thus, the Qu'ran promises,....
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 13, 2010
You could simply have said:

'No, I refuse to quote what Prof Hans Kung has to say on the subject because I want to continue living in the past.'


So, yet another quaint belief to add to your growing list.

You think it's ok to enslave virgins and slaughter their families in cold blood in the name of religion, and even argue it is angelic action, So given you don't deny you are more extreme a fanatic in this regard than Al Qaeda, the quaint belief above isn't the most weird belief you have by far (but just another one that relies on misinterpretations and ignoring the conclusions of recent scholars such as Kung)
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 13, 2010
Strange response. So you agree with me that Allah only loves those who loves him back, ie., Allah is morally deficient, whereas the Christian God loves even the sinners and tax collectors?

Part 4/11 Jamal Badawi delivers his opening comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APw2kIHl ... re=related
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 14, 2010
As I keep saying, your refusal to quote modern day theologians who laugh at your orientalist views is damning.

You have to live in the past and attack a strawman - the God of Islam is no different from the God of the Bible.

You've quoted Prof Hans Kung before - so why not acknowledge his conclusions on the orientalist spin you think are fact?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 14, 2010
Fascinating views - now, can you tell me if you accept Craig's conclusions that Allah is morally deficient because he only loves those who love him?
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 14, 2010
I just find it difficult to accept that there is a real difference between Allah ordering his followers to slay innocent civilians and God ordering the Israelites to do it.

So, either way it is- you are with God… You accept the fact that he can dislike, reject and curse anyone he wants at any time…I see..

I think it's called 'sacrifice'. Parents sacrifice for their children if they are loving parents.

And you really convinced yourself with your own bullshi. Conviction?…
I’ve heard of no parents sacrificing themselves for their kids(It’s illogical and out of reality- A soul of an adult is equal to the soul of a child, neither has superiority over the other).
On the birth table, If a mothers life is under danger, would you risk the life of the baby or the mother?

However I heard of parents murdering their kids for their own selfish good and hatred. If parents die when they rescue their kids out of a disaster, that’s not because they wish to sacrifice themselves but that’s because it’s their parental instinct to rescue and protect them. Isn’t God so wonderful that he creates everyone with these internal qualities regardless of their race and religion? Now this is my muslim God.
But according to your God, Parents can sacrifice both themselves and their kids but cannot rescue or protect.
Father God, son of a God – Criminal God, sacrificed God….hmmm I like the concept…

As for God and Christianity. God loves all people unconditionally. That means God's love for you is not dependent on whether you believe in him or not.

Care to read on...
As Christians would say that God loves the sinner but hates the sin and it is true in Islam too.
Indeed, "The Loving" is one of Allah's names as He said about Himself: "And He is the Forgiving and Loving" (Qur'an 85:14). Love is just a word which must be translated in action and it becomes obedience in the case of His creation, human beings, and mercy in case of the Creator, Allah. You can see that when love is translated into action it is mercy and His mercy is unconditional. You receive Allah's mercy whether you are an obedient servant of Allah or you are a mushrik (pagan, idolater) and a sinner; they all receive equal treatment in this life. Let us take a few examples:
- A man may say to his wife "I love you" but he beats her and does not provide for her. Does he love her?
- A wife says to her husband "I love you" but when he desires sex she does not agree to it. Does she love him?
- A child says to his parents "I love you" but he disobeys them most of the time. Does he/she love them?
Love must be translated in action, attitude and behavior, otherwise it is just a word without meaning. Similarly Allah's love is translated in His attributes of forgiving, compassion and mercy. Look around and you will find that Allah's mercy is spread all around. "Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem" means "In the name of Allah the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate." The words are AR-RaHMan and AR-RaHeeM. AR represents the article AL, meaning "the". The root word is RHM, which may be read as RaHiMa or RaHaMa, means mercy. Allah does not use two identical words next to each other unless there is a difference in their meaning.
Allah is Ar-Raheem for all humankind irrespective of their belief in Allah and their character whether they believe in Allah or not; whether they are good-doers or evil-doers; they all obtain their sustenance from Allah. Many evil people are very rich because Allah decided to give them all the wealth and good things of this life; this is because Allah is Ar-Raheem. Allah is also Ar-Rahman for the believers in Him; they are good-doers. They receive special blessings from Allah, that is, happiness and contentment in this life and reward in the hereafter.
As for the life hereafter, or the next life, the matter is different. The Christian concept of God is a merciless God. He punishes the sinless, Jesus, for the wrong done by others. The Christian God is powerless to forgive sins and accept repentance. He makes the entire mankind sinners for the sin of one couple, Adam and Eve. The Christian God is incapable of forgiving the sin of one couple but makes their entire progeny sinners. For forgiving their sins he has to concoct a charade of bringing "his son" who is sinless and kills him for no fault of his own. This is a cruel god and a pagan-assumed god, not the One True God.
The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV). The converse of this statement is that the rest of humanity will perish, that is, will go to hell without any other way of receiving His forgiveness for the sin they did not commit. What happens to the people who were born and died before God decide to concoct this charade only 2000 years ago?It seems that the Christian God is a poor planner and a late thinker because it took him thousands if not millions of years to find a way of forgiving "the sins" of mankind. What happens to those who never received the message of Jesus until it was thoroughly corrupted by the "Christians" and it became illogical and unacceptable?

In the Qur'an Allah says that He does not love those who reject Him (3:32), does not love those who are transgressors (2:57, 140, 5:87, 7:55), does not love those who are evil-livers (5:64), does not love evil talk (4:148) and others. In all these cases love is connected to the deeds of a person. At the same time Allah does not deprive them of anything in this life. You will not find that all good people are rich and all sinners are living in poverty and a wretched life. Allah gives a person life-long opportunity to turn away from the life of sin and disobedience and receive His forgiveness. Conversely, Allah says, "Say, if you love Allah, obey me (Muhammad), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful" (3:31). If you love Allah show it in your conduct and obey Allah and His Messenger, for obedience of His Messenger is the obedience of Allah (4:80). It means our expression of love is in obedience.

See what Allah also says in the Qur'an, "Say: O My slaves (mankind) who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgives all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful..." (39:53-58). Here the message is that those who commit evil are doing wrong and hurting themselves in this life and the next, however, Allah's forgiveness has no limits and the only condition is asking for forgiveness and repentance (not committing wrongs again knowingly).
Dr. M. Amir Ali, Ph.D.

http://www.ilaam.net/Questions/AllahsLove.html

Eh would you love your wife unconditionally if she rejects you and says she loves another man?
(God doesn’t reject those who don’t reject him)
Eh would you love your step mother and father unconditionally if they reject you and don’t welcome you into their new life? (God too loves those who don’t reject him)
The god of the Koran would never put himself on the cross and suffer torment for the sins of humanity. The god of the Koran does not love all people the same - as is clearly stated over and over again in the Koran.

Of course he is not mad maniac God! Muslim God is proper God..
So What was the fault of the mankind who were let to live in sins until upon Jesus arrived? Why did Your God allowed them to live in Sins and never loved them the same way as the ones like after Jesus sacrificed?
Why didn’t your God sacrifice himself for the sins of humanity before Jesus?

God in the New Testament, however, does love all. The New Testament says that God is love. And the passage is not an isolated, contradictory verse in a sea of hatred, like many oft-quoted passages in the Koran.

Hatred?
You mean this kind of biblical hatred…
Psalm 5:4-6
4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;
with you the wicked cannot dwell.
5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.
6 You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men
the LORD abhors.
Psalm 11:5
5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked and those who love violence
his soul hates.
Some Christians would argue and say that the book of Psalms is a book of poetry and we cannot establish any doctrine related verdicts based on books of poetry. Even though this argument is very lame. We will accept it for sake of argument and show that God hates from other books of the Bible which are not books of poetry.

Ecclesiastes 3:8
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Leviticus 20:23
23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
Deuteronomy 18:12
12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
Leviticus 26:30
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.
Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... e_love.htm
By the way there is no such hatred language in the quran..As usual, MISSING…

The God in the New Testament repeatedly says that he loves all and that his love is unconditional. Like a parent who will love his or her child no matter what their child does. God loves all, sinners and saints, disbelievers and life-long Christians.

Really?
Eh if your God loves sinners, sinner saints, sinner disbelievers then Why do you have hell as well as heaven in Bible ? And If your God only loves life-long Christians then why doesn’t he stop non-Christians from breeding? Is that because he is such a fair God that he prepared hell for non-Christian disbelievers?

If God is all loving towards disbelievers than why did he had to come to the disbelieving children of Israel? And why "God Jesus" was fighting those disbelieving Jews in Biblical verses? And why were they forced to to be guided?
If God loves the disbelievers unconditionally how will he make sure that disbelievers will listen to his orders to keep justice on earth?
i.e, as in dark ages of Europe, current Christian believers in Uganda and Ruanda...

You are such a sweet melon baby….

However I’ll give you couple of links to read and learn all about unconditional love of God in Islam..

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... boutIslamE
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... odlove.htm
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 14, 2010
Berrin, I encourage you to read the link I provided because it sounds like you've misunderstood what Craig has said:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=7421

I won't bother to provide my own take on what Craig says. Rather, I think you should hear straight from the horse's mouth.
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 14, 2010
shafique wrote:As I keep saying, your refusal to quote modern day theologians who laugh at your orientalist views is damning.

You have to live in the past and attack a strawman - the God of Islam is no different from the God of the Bible.

You've quoted Prof Hans Kung before - so why not acknowledge his conclusions on the orientalist spin you think are fact?
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 14, 2010
event horizon wrote:Berrin, I encourage you to read the link I provided because it sounds like you've misunderstood what Craig has said:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=7421

I won't bother to provide my own take on what Craig says. Rather, I think you should hear straight from the horse's mouth.
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 15, 2010
Are you scared of quoting what Kung concludes?

Re-quoting guys who live in the past won't help you much - my point is that their views are outdated.

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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 15, 2010
What does Kung say about Allah's mercy ? Does he actually address this or are you simply diverting from the actual points made - that Allah is morally deficient because he only loves those who love him back?

I guess I'll have to paste the actual link now since no-one seems interested in addressing what Craig actually writes:

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Question:

Dr. Craig,

I would, firstly, like to thank you for all the work you have done. As a Muslim, I have been able to profit a great deal from many of your articles and have better been able to understand Christianity as well.

My question deals with the issue of God being All-Loving. I recently had the pleasure of listening to your debate with Shabir Ally on the Concept of God. You made the objection that the Islamic conception of God is morally deficient because it is not All-Loving.

I would just like to raise a few points:

1) How exactly do you prove to me that it is necessary for God to be All-Loving? Do you derive this from the ontological argument for God or through natural intuition?

2) I received the following objection from a fellow Muslim, it is as follows:

The greatest conceivable being will have the fewest essential attributes possible. Why is that? By definition the greatest being is the most powerful being (since he does explain everything out there, this follows from any version of the Principle of Sufficient Reason that you wish). It follows from that, that a powerful being would have as few constraints as possible. So let us say that Allah had a negative essential attribute i.e. Allah essentially cannot provide us with a miracle if we have some vague specific natural law against it. Clearly, we could conceive of a more powerful being! Ok, how about the attribute of existing. Now if he did not have that attribute he could not be a being that is all powerful. Therefore we are obliged to place this attribute in his essential nature. In other words if someone wants to place an attribute into Allah's essential camp, then the onus is on the OTHER party to provide proof. So why does Allah have to be ALL loving?! Why does Allah have to love everything and act?!


I found this point interesting. In other words, is it not limiting God when we set absolutes upon God saying that he can't do a certain thing i.e not love? Would it not be better to say that God has a choice and is therefore not limited?

3) When the Christian tells me that God loves everyone, even the sinner, I inquire as to how a morally perfect God could love the sinner who defies God and causes harm to those around him. I usually get the response saying God "hates the sin and loves the sinner" (which is apparently a quote from Ghandi!). However, is this really possible? This kind of reasoning is never applied to judicial rulings or even God's decision on the Day of Judgment. When someone rules on something, he takes into account the individual and punishes him as well. How can we say that God loves the person whose heart is black with sin and defiance of God? Does this not imply a tacit approval or indifference towards this rejection? Can we really remove the sin from the sinner? Thus, could God love sin?

4) Is it not just for God to perhaps reward believers and the righteous to give them love (or perhaps more love) and affection for them for their continual good. It seems unfair to think that God would equally love all people despite the incredible difference in values. Could we say that God loves Jesus, say as much as the brutal oppressors in the world? How could we say God gives the exact same love? And if his love is graded and varies to the believer as St. Thomas Aquinas asserts, then you implicitly admit that there is a justice aspect to his love. Thus, the accusation of the Islamic God being morally deficient seems weaker, as you have conceded that God can judge his love according to the person.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this and hope to benefit from your knowledge.

Kevin


Dr. Craig responds:

Thanks for your thoughtful questions, Kevin! I so enjoy talking with Muslims about these mutually important issues.

For readers who haven't listened to my debate with Shabir Ally, permit me to provide some background by reproducing here the argument from my opening speech:

That brings us to my second contention, that the Muslim concept of God is rationally objectionable. Now in claiming this, I'm not trying to put anybody down or attack someone personally. I'm just saying that it seems to me that the Islamic conception of God has real problems which render it rationally objectionable. Let me share just one of those deficits, namely: Islam has a morally deficient concept of God.

We've seen that Muslims and Christians agree that God by definition is the greatest conceivable being and that besides being all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, and so forth, the greatest conceivable being must also be morally perfect. That means that God must be a loving and gracious being. Therefore, God, as the perfect being, must be all-loving.

And this is exactly what the Bible affirms. The Bible says,

"God is love, . . . In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His son to be the sacrifice for our sins" (I John 4.8, 10).

Or again it says,

"God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5.8).

Jesus taught God's unconditional love for sinners. We see this in his parables about the prodigal son and the lost sheep, in his practice of table fellowship with the immoral and unclean, and in his sayings like those of the Sermon on the Mount. He said, for example,

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends his rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, . . . what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5.43-48)

The love of the Heavenly Father is impartial, universal, and unconditional.

What a contrast with the God of the Qur'an! According to the Qur'an, God does not love sinners. This fact is emphasized repeatedly and consistently like a drumbeat throughout the pages of the Qur'an. Just listen to the following passages:

"God loves not the unbelievers" (III. 33)
"God loves not the impious and sinners" (II. 277)
"God loves not evildoers" (III. 58)
"God loves not the proud" (IV. 37)
"God loves not transgressors" (V. 88)
"God loves not the prodigal" (VI. 142)
"God loves not the treacherous" (VIII. 59)
"God is an enemy to unbelievers" (II. 99)

Over and over again the Qur'an declares that God does not love the very people whom the Bible says God loves so much that He sent His Son to die for them!

Now this may seem paradoxical in light of the Qur'an's calling God "al-Rahman al-Rahim"--the All-Merciful--until you realize that according to the Qur'an what God's mercy really cashes out to is that if you believe and do righteous deeds, then God can be counted on to overlook your sins and reward your good works. Thus, the Qu'ran promises,

"Work and God will surely see your work." (IX. 105)

"Every soul shall be paid in full for what it has earned." (II. 282)

"Those who believe and do deeds of righteousness and perform the prayer and pay the alms--their wage awaits them with the Lord." (II. 278)

According to the Qur'an God's love is thus reserved only for those who earn it. It says,

"To those who believe and do righteousness, God will assign love." (XIX 97).

So the Qur'an assures us of God's love for the God-fearing and the good-doers; but He has no love for sinners and unbelievers. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be earned. The Muslim God only loves those who first love Him. His love thus rises no higher than the love which Jesus said even tax-collectors and unbelievers exhibit.

Now don't you think this is an inadequate conception of God? What would you think of a parent who said to his children, "If you measure up to my standards and do as I say, then I will love you"? Some of you have had parents like that, who didn't love you unconditionally, and you know the emotional scars you bear as a result. As the greatest conceivable being, the most perfect being, the source of all goodness and love, God's love must be unconditional and impartial. Therefore, the Islamic conception of God seems to me to be morally deficient. I therefore cannot rationally accept it.

So in answer to your questions:

1. As is evident from the above, I take as the point of departure for my argument our shared conviction, as Christians and Muslims, that God is the greatest conceivable being. This understanding of God is, as you note, the nerve of Anselm's ontological argument, though we are not here endorsing that argument. The idea is that a greatest conceivable being must be morally perfect. That seems self-evident: if a being is in some way morally imperfect, then it is not a perfect being and therefore not the greatest conceivable being. The key move, then, is the claim that moral perfection entails being all-loving. That seems intuitively obvious to me, for love is a moral perfection, and therefore a perfect being will be a being which is as loving as possible.

2. I'm not very impressed by the argument of your friend you quote. First, although traditional Christian theology has taken God to be absolutely simple, I don't see any reason to think that it is greater to have as few essential attributes as possible (see Question # 111). Indeed, quite the opposite might seem to be the case! The greatest conceivable being will be not merely essentially all-powerful, but also self-existent, eternal, holy, all-knowing, all-present, etc., etc. (Think of God's 99 beautiful names in the Qur'an!) So I see no grounds for thinking that God cannot have a multiplicity of essential attributes. Indeed, being maximally great entails having quite a number of distinct attributes, such has those just mentioned.

When your friend says that an all-powerful being will have as few constraints as possible, he's giving expression to the typical Islamic view of God's power that trumps everything, even His own nature. God is so powerful that he could say to faithful Muslims on the Day of Judgement, "Ha, ha! I tricked you! I'm sending all of you to eternal hell for believing in me and my Prophet!" On this view God is not constrained even by His own goodness. Now I disagree completely that this makes God a greater being. Quite the contrary, such a capricious Deity is morally flawed and therefore not perfect. We must insist that God's omnipotence operates consistently with His moral perfection.

Now I do shoulder the burden of proof as demanded by your friend. My argument is that maximal greatness entails moral perfection and that moral perfection entails being all-loving. This first entailment seems undeniable. The key question is the second. It is based on the evident fact that being loving is a moral perfection or great-making property and that it is better to be all-loving than partially loving.

3. The answer to this third question is, "Yes, emphatically Yes!" You can separate the sin from the sinner. Every good parent knows this fact. Your rebellious teenage son or daughter will break your heart precisely because you love him or her despite his or her defiant and wicked behavior. If you didn't love your child, it wouldn't hurt so bad. But the fact is that you do love your children, despite their waywardness.

In a courtroom setting, there's no reason to think the judge might not love the accused despite his obligation to dispense justice impartially.

God loves us because we are persons created in His image and therefore bearers of intrinsic moral value. He hates the sinful things we do and deplores the mess we have made of our lives and the world, but He loves us like His own children. There's no inconsistency there; indeed, that's what a morally perfect being would do.

4. Here we come to very subtle point. Notice how I cash out the notion of being all-loving: God's love is impartial, universal, and unconditional. I make no claim about the intensity of God's love being the same for every person. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. I'm not arguing for that. I'm saying that a morally perfect being would love people impartially, all people, and without strings attached. But Allah has no love at all for unbelievers. This is not just a difference of degree, but of night and day!

Of course, those who respond to God's love will experience God's love in a fuller and deeper way than those who spurn it. That's part of what it means to be in a love relationship. Such a relationship with God is at the heart of Christianity. It's what makes heaven so wonderful. In that sense we can agree that those who are saved will be rewarded with a greater measure of God's love in an experiential sense.

I believe that this moral difference between the God of the New Testament and the God of the Qur'an is just as important as differences over the Trinity, for it strikes at the very heart of Who God is.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=7421
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 15, 2010
I keep telling you, repeating the outdated views of orientalists won't change the fact you're living in the past.

Are you really that afraid of quoting Kung's conclusions?

Cheers,
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 15, 2010
Eh What could be the reasons why Muslim God wants mankind to recognize him?
Is it him that is in real need of our recognition? Either yes or no and why?
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 15, 2010
See what Allah also says in the Qur'an, "Say: O My slaves (mankind) who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgives all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful..." (39:53-58). Here the message is that those who commit evil are doing wrong and hurting themselves in this life and the next, however, Allah's forgiveness has no limits and the only condition is asking for forgiveness and repentance (not committing wrongs again knowingly).

Eh what's these words mean to you?
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 17, 2010
Berrin, do you agree or disagree with the points made by Craig.

Which ones do you agree with and which ones do you disagree with?

Does Allah love disbelievers?
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 17, 2010
Ah, Berrin - he's asking you whether you agree with his cuts and pastes detailing an outdated view of Islam that modern day scholars such as Prof Hans Kung rejects.

Well, I personally am with Prof Kung who says that Muhammad, pbuh, is a Biblical prophet of God (and Prof Kung is an ordained Catholic Priest, and still is a Christian).

What about you Berrin? Are you with 'Craig' or with 'Kung'?

Isn't it interesting that eh refuses to acknowledge what the 21st century Christian scholars conclude? ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 17, 2010
Berrin, do you agree or disagree with the points made by Craig.


Totally disagree. He sounds as if he is trying hard to keep what few believing christians left to stand by christianity, When infact millions of them become atheists every year not becouse they wish to but simply they cannot make sense out of illogical corrupted verses and commands of God in OT and NT.

"God loves not the unbelievers" (III. 33)
"God loves not the impious and sinners" (II. 277)
"God loves not evildoers" (III. 58)
"God loves not the proud" (IV. 37)
"God loves not transgressors" (V. 88)
"God loves not the prodigal" (VI. 142)
"God loves not the treacherous" (VIII. 59)
"God is an enemy to unbelievers


Craig quotes these as of hatred towards sinners therefore deprivation of love from God. Totally, totally illogical.....Whereas a humanist atheist would consider these as joined universal values to serve humanity...
Any disbeliever who sees God's objectives on par with their understanding of serving humanity, would initially become curious and start reading more about islam leading to recognition of God eventually. It's not as if when you start putting your trust in God, you start commiting suicide or something else etc. you know.

So please care to answer my question.
What could be the reasons why Muslim God wants mankind to recognize him?

I know it's very diffucut for you to find reasons..so I give up on you finding many but just find one which sums it all up? When you're giving your answer bear in mind that it's no him who needs our recognition but us!
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Re: Eh- Are you a born sinner or a "Born Again" Mar 17, 2010
Craig quotes these as of hatred towards sinners therefore deprivation of love from God. Totally, totally illogical.....Whereas a humanist atheist would consider these as joined universal values to serve humanity...


Ok, do you know of a passage in the Koran where Allah says he loves the sinner? Loves the disbeliever? Loves those who do not love him back?

Craig's argument was pretty convincing. He says that Allah is morally deficient. It should speak volumes that the trained Islamic apologist Craig was debating could not refute any of Craig's arguments. I strongly recommend for you to watch those videos to determine for yourself whose argument was better - Craig's or the Muslim apologist's.

So please care to answer my question.
What could be the reasons why Muslim God wants mankind to recognize him?


Well, if I were Richard Dawkins, I would probably say that Allah is a control-freak. Or maybe Allah just wants some attention.
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