Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

shafique · Mar 17, 2010

I think Kung would take out Craig in a celebrity death match.
:mrgreen:

event horizon · Mar 17, 2010

shafique wrote:I think Kung would take out Craig in a celebrity death match.

You should have stopped right there.

Berrin · Mar 18, 2010

Ok, do you know of a passage in the Koran where Allah says he loves the sinner? Loves the disbeliever? Loves those who do not love him back?
Craig's argument was pretty convincing. He says that Allah is morally deficient.

Eh I found why Bible God has so much love passion for sinners. Apparently he is a loooove
inducing God..You wanna believe that? Here..It's only 30 bucks.
http://history.resultspage.com/search?w ... 20Sex%20in

Well then it now becomes your duty to ask Mr. Craig to get hold of this and lecture us all about the adequate morality of God in Bible.. What do you think?

Better still have a short cut and talk about all of this. I am getting more and more impressed as I read on...
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

shafique · Mar 18, 2010

eh enjoys living in denial.

event horizon · Mar 18, 2010

Does allah love disbelievers?

shafique · Mar 18, 2010

Yes.

Just read Kung, he'll clarify why Craig and you are clinging to this old misconception that relies on selective quotes.

If you want to disregard what modern day Christian theologians conclude, that's really you're problem. God clearly states in the Quran that He is most Forgiving and Most Gracious and is the Rahman - the one who loves all creation.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 18, 2010

Let's see the passage(s) from the Koran where Allah says that he loves disbelievers.

shafique · Mar 18, 2010

shafique wrote:Just read Kung, he'll clarify why Craig and you are clinging to this old misconception that relies on selective quotes.

I couldn't make it more simpler.

Berrin · Mar 18, 2010

Shafique reading Kung is the easiest option to conclude that Allah loves disbelievers..
But let's challenge Eh's intelligence..

Eh gives us one simple answer as to why Allah is Rahman to disbelievers? It has a very basic answer...

event horizon · Mar 18, 2010

Why not just quote the Koran, as Dr. Craig has done?

So far, you've both failed to even quote a single verse.

Why does Allah hate disbelievers so much?

shafique · Mar 19, 2010

Actually, the first verse of the Quran clarifies the matter and we explained what 'Rahman' means. It appears your memory is letting you down as well as!

Thereafter I asked you to consult what up to date scholars such as Prof Hans Kung have concluded.

Hey, if you want to continue to believe quaint ideas and weird interpretations of Islam based on what 'Craig' tells you and you want to ignore what Prof Kung concludes, then that's your perogative.

You will understand why we call this the:
'Head in the bucket of sand' argument! :albino:

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 19, 2010

Actually, Craig already addressed the 'al-rahman' smoke-and-mirrors excuse. He says that Allah's mercy really only cashes out to those who love him.

Dr. William Lane Craig wrote:Over and over again the Qur'an declares that God does not love the very people whom the Bible says God loves so much that He sent His Son to die for them!

Now this may seem paradoxical in light of the Qur'an's calling God "al-Rahman al-Rahim"--the All-Merciful--until you realize that according to the Qur'an what God's mercy really cashes out to is that if you believe and do righteous deeds, then God can be counted on to overlook your sins and reward your good works. Thus, the Qu'ran promises,

"Work and God will surely see your work." (IX. 105)

"Every soul shall be paid in full for what it has earned." (II. 282)

"Those who believe and do deeds of righteousness and perform the prayer and pay the alms--their wage awaits them with the Lord." (II. 278)

According to the Qur'an God's love is thus reserved only for those who earn it. It says,

"To those who believe and do righteousness, God will assign love." (XIX 97).

So the Qur'an assures us of God's love for the God-fearing and the good-doers; but He has no love for sinners and unbelievers. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be earned. The Muslim God only loves those who first love Him. His love thus rises no higher than the love which Jesus said even tax-collectors and unbelievers exhibit.

Now don't you think this is an inadequate conception of God? What would you think of a parent who said to his children, "If you measure up to my standards and do as I say, then I will love you"? Some of you have had parents like that, who didn't love you unconditionally, and you know the emotional scars you bear as a result. As the greatest conceivable being, the most perfect being, the source of all goodness and love, God's love must be unconditional and impartial. Therefore, the Islamic conception of God seems to me to be morally deficient. I therefore cannot rationally accept it.

It seems, that in your old age, your memory is starting to fail you.

Thereafter I asked you to consult what up to date scholars such as Prof Hans Kung have concluded.

Does Kung address whether the god of the Koran actually loves disbelievers/sinners?

Happy to consult Kung if he actually addresses what you claim he does.

Hey, if you want to continue to believe quaint ideas and weird interpretations of Islam based on what 'Craig' tells you and you want to ignore what Prof Kung concludes, then that's your perogative.

*yawn*

shafique · Mar 19, 2010

Rather than supposing what Kung concludes, why don't you quote him?

Here's his book (in full) - Islam, Past, Present and Future.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6387447/Islam ... and-Future

He's still a Christian and I don't agree with all his conclusions about Islam, or Islamic history - but you've quoted him before and say you have his book(s) - so why not take the view of this scholar and compare what he concludes with the outdated view espoused by Craig et al?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 19, 2010

Too lazy (but hey, at least I'm not also overweight and short).

shafique · Mar 19, 2010

Head in sand AND an ad hominem attack - impressive going eh.

A white flag smiley would have been easier.
:drunken:

Berrin · Mar 19, 2010

Actually, Craig already addressed the 'al-rahman' smoke-and-mirrors excuse. He says that Allah's mercy really only cashes out to those who love him.

What a silly quote by Craig..
Did you ever hear if God asked anyone' opinion before he gave them life on earth?
Did you ever hear anyone before they were honoured on earth they went into some sort of unconditional/conditional love and supply contract?

event horizon · Mar 20, 2010

Berrin, care to quote a single verse in the Koran where allah says he loves sinners/disbelievers?

shafique · Mar 20, 2010

See pgs 87 to 91 of Kung's book:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6387447/Islam ... and-Future

'The common belief in God in the three Abrahamic religions'

He quotes the Quran there and gives you the references for the attributes of God. Rahman, as we've pointed out before, is also dealt with.

The conclusion is that the one and only God is common to all three religions.

If you disagree, you can quote him and show where he's wrong.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 20, 2010

Ahh - but that's Kung's misunderstanding of Islam.

Muslims don't believe that the two other religions have any spiritual/ancestral connection to Abraham and the other prophets.

To Muslims, Jesus, Abraham, Moses were all Muslims. In Islam, Judaism and Christianity is no different than Bahai'sm.

The primordial religion was Islam and Judaism and Christianity are the later ones. It just so happens that Baha'is have lesser rights/recognition because of the prophet thing happening after Muhammad.

In any event, if you're hammering away in the other thread about the God of the OT, doesn't that kind of contradict what you're trying to express here?

shafique · Mar 20, 2010

Ah, I didn't take long for you to invoke your 'sheikhdom' and declare yourself a greater scholar of Islam than Prof Hans Kung.

I was betting it would take a few more posts - but hey, you surprised me by bringing your beliefs in a bit sooner than I expected.

It does appear you really, really enjoy living in the past.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Mar 20, 2010

Berrin, care to quote a single verse in the Koran where allah says he loves sinners/disbelievers?

Every chapter in quran starts with "Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim" wheather God talks about disbelievers or believers.
http://wahiduddin.net/words/bismillah.htm

I have another facinating question to you..
Before christian God arrived, who was the God of the people before prophet Abraham?
How do you come to conclusion that God didn't love those disbelivers before prophet Abraham?

event horizon · Mar 20, 2010

Berrin wrote:
Berrin, care to quote a single verse in the Koran where allah says he loves sinners/disbelievers?

Every chapter in quran starts with "Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim" wheather God talks about disbelievers or believers.
http://wahiduddin.net/words/bismillah.htm

I have another facinating question to you..
Before christian God arrived, who was the God of the people before prophet Abraham?
How do you come to conclusion that God didn't love those disbelivers before prophet Abraham?

The answer is in the NT.

Anyways, you have still failed to provide one verse - Dr. Craig also explains what the term 'al-rahmeen' really 'cashes' out to be.

shafique · Mar 21, 2010

shafique wrote:See pgs 87 to 91 of Kung's book:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6387447/Islam ... and-Future

'The common belief in God in the three Abrahamic religions'

He quotes the Quran there and gives you the references for the attributes of God. Rahman, as we've pointed out before, is also dealt with.

The conclusion is that the one and only God is common to all three religions.

If you disagree, you can quote him and show where he's wrong.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 21, 2010

As already explained by Craig, rahman really cashes out to be that those who love Allah receive his love. Disbelievers and sinners do not receive Allah's love - the Koran is explicit about this.

shafique · Mar 22, 2010

Was my question difficult?

shafique wrote:He quotes the Quran there and gives you the references for the attributes of God. Rahman, as we've pointed out before, is also dealt with.

The conclusion is that the one and only God is common to all three religions.

If you disagree, you can quote him and show where he's wrong.

Why do you rate Craig over Kung?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 22, 2010

Because Kung doesn't address anything that Craig is talking about....and because Craig cites the Koran.

Allah hates disbelievers - he says so himself. Are you saying that Allah is a liar?

shafique · Mar 22, 2010

Ah, the ostrich defence again.

Kung says it is the same God (as Christianity and Judaism) and explains what God's attributes are (and gives Quranic references).

Do you disagree with Kung that the God of the Quran is the same as the God of Moses and Jesus?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 22, 2010

Hey, you're the one agreeing with Dawkins' views on the OT God.

In any event, I'm simply pointing out that allah does not love disblievers/sinners.

So, the question is simple. Do you have any evidence which contradicts the passages Craig has cited from the Koran to show that allah does indeed love disbelievers/sinners?

AMNT?

shafique · Mar 23, 2010

Yes, the evidence is in the quotes I've referred you to.

Kung says that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Jesus and Moses. He also quotes the Quran in terms of His attributes - notably Rahman.

shafique wrote:Do you disagree with Kung that the God of the Quran is the same as the God of Moses and Jesus?

If you disagree - pray tell why you think Kung is wrong.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Mar 23, 2010

That's kind of a dumb question. It's simply personal belief. I'm not sure why you keep repeating a question that really isn't that profound.

Anyways, this topic is mostly about God's love (or lack thereof) for disbelievers/sinners. Do you have a passage which contradicts the ones Dr. Craig quotes from the Koran saying that allah does not love disbelievers et al?

Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

Eh- Are You A Born Sinner Or A "Born Again"

Go To

Dubai Discussions

Dubai Expat Forums

Dubai Business

Dubai Tech Discussions

Dubai Classifieds