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shafique wrote:

shafique wrote:I disagree with you and Craig - and agree with Kung that God is the same and that He loves all creation I including sinners.

If God is the same, then His attributes did not change from when Jesus was praying to God to when Muhammad did the same.

God whilst loving all creation also diapproves of acts that hurt his creations. A mother will tell a child that she will not like children who misbehave or play with fire - ultimately to prevent them from hurting thmselves.

God says in the first verse of the Quran that He loves all creation - this is His attribute of Rahman.

QED

Shafique

Do you need to look up what QED stands for?

Another post that could be deleted - quoting yourself, no less.

In any event - can you confirm that there is no passage in the Koran where allah says that he loves disbelievers or sinners?

I'll take your non-answer as confirmation that there is no passage which says that.

That would also have to ignore the contradictory passages in the Koran where allah is clear that he does *not* love disbelievers and sinners.

Anyways, I have to repeat my earlier claim that I have never heard someone who is truly loving tell another person (especially a child) that they will no longer love that person anymore if they do not do what that someone wants out of them.

To me, that was the entire point Dr. Craig was making. Thank you for encapsulating Dr. Craig's previous point by using an analogy of a mother who tells her children that she will no longer love them if they do not do or believe what she tells them to.

The fact that you used such an analogy, tells me that you, also, have an imperfect and incomplete understanding of morality and that this understanding comes from what the Koran says - that one should not unconditionally love others.

Yes, I posted many times that the first verse of the Quran states that God is Rahman - i.e. that He loves all creation.

Hence my QED in my previous post.


I also agree with Kung et al that there is only one God - that of Muhammad, Moses and Jesus - and therefore His attributes are the same.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Yes, I posted many times that the first verse of the Quran states that God is Rahman - i.e. that He loves all creation.

Hence my QED in my previous post.


I also agree with Kung et al that there is only one God - that of Muhammad, Moses and Jesus - and therefore His attributes are the same.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, unfortunately the Koran defines allah's mercy (as William Lane Craig already pointed out in this thread previously) - the examples provided from the Koran prove that allah is merciful only to those who love him.

BTW, thanks for bringing the arguments from this thread back up again.

It's good for Muslims and non-Muslims alike to learn that allah's love is conditional and that many humans are morally more perfect than the god of Islam.

Repeating your belief that God does not love all creation does not make it any stronger - just shows your desperation to believe the loon spin about Islam.

Rahman applies to all creation - God loves all creation.

You seem to think that God telling us the consequences of our actions is tantamount to a punishment, when it is merely an act of love - a warning that we may suffer if we choose actions that can harm us.

You have to go through some impressive logic sommersaults to spin this warning issued out of love as an act of cruelty or bizarely an argument for God's conditional love.

Cheers,
Shafique

So we should ignore what allah clearly says in the Koran and listen to your fanciful spin about who allah loves:

Koran 3:32 wrote:Say: 'Obey God, and the Messenger.' But if they turn their backs, God loves not the unbelievers.

Koran 2:98 wrote:Whosoever is an enemy to God and His angels and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael - surely God is an enemy to the unbelievers.'

I've provided concrete examples of what allah's mercy really boils down to - if you love allah (obey, believe in him) then allah will love you back.

So far you've only repeated a claim that al-Rahman translates to loving all of creation (even though you haven't supported such a definition).

That's nothing more than a truth-advertising-problem since people have different conceptions of what words mean. The Koran helpfully defines what mercy actually translates to and we can cite these verses to learn how merciful or how loving allah actually is.

So far, you have been unable to provide a single verse that shows that allah really loves all of mankind - including unbelievers and sinners.

You quoted me stating that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus and therefore His attributes are the same. Given that Prof Kung maintains that this is true - why haven't you addressed this point?

Rahman is God's attribute and applies to all creation.

As I said, I choose Kung's conclusions over your weird and discredited arguments about the loon interpretations of Islam.

Should you not address the questions about the Bible instead of ressurecting threads and presenting no new evidence? Or perhaps this is just smoke and mirrors to hide your embarrassment in the talking donkeys thread?

Cheers
Shafique

You quoted me stating that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus and therefore His attributes are the same. Given that Prof Kung maintains that this is true - why haven't you addressed this point?

Is this an argument ? LoL.

Rahman is God's attribute and applies to all creation.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. See WLC's arguments (and quotations from the Koran) that allah does not love those who do not love him back.

As I said, I choose Kung's conclusions over your weird and discredited arguments about the loon interpretations of Islam.

Let me know where you have 'discredited' the quotes from the Koran that allah does not love disbelievers, does not love sinners.

Allah only loves those who love him.

Yes, I do believe that Kung's clear conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus trumps your weird argument that God does not love everyone according to loon interpretations of the Quran.

I see no attempt to dispute the conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the God Jesus prayed to, and therefore your whole argument is based on a loon interpretation.

Such as it always was.

Cheers,
Shafique

Eh, As babies we are born sinless and pure, a child born to a Muslim family is no different than a child born to a pagan or Christian family. Everyone of us is born the same way with the same creator with the same patent rights on us which makes belief in one single creator is actually inherent in every one of us.

So until we each reach adulthood god loves us all “unconditionally” (means if we die before adulthood, our place will be the heaven) only because we become accountable after reaching adulthood provided that we are not mentally handicapped.

God is Ar-rahman, al-wahhaab, ar-razzaaq…becouse when he wills us to become a human being in this universe which is out of his love and passion to create, he doesn’t ask our consent..
For his will/love and passion to continue (just like parents’) requires one to be a continues provider and sustainer until death, like parents/animals do until kids leave home or get married and so on. So within this concept, if someone is a disbeliever or believer will make no difference as long as we show some sort of effort to work and stay alive.

I would only say that god is unfair to dislike disbelievers (after adulthood), if only he didn’t give us “free will” as a birth right- which means, instead of leaving us to decide on matters, he would do it himself right from the beginning as he favours, i.e takes sides for some people to be born acting disbeliever and some as believers. Just like when we manufacture certain type of machines to perform certain tasks.. But this is not the case everyone chooses what to believe or disbelieve at certain times of their life(sometimes chancing minds as well), this can only happen within the presence of a mind power and memory to produce intelligence and wisdom to initiate our choices, hence why we have free will..

Even after our adulthood , if our choice is to stay a disbeliever, he will still continue to remain rahman, wahhaab, razzaaq and haleem for 1- he didn’t ask our consent to be created, 2- in the hope that one day due to some sort of reason or for prayers for guidance that we will change our course of actions and become a true believer, God gives us everyone the opportunity as he is Al-Haleem,As-Sabur, means patient enough to grant us respite, so that we use, available knowledge, experience, intellectual capacity and free will to make up our final decision until our abilities start to decline..

The problem only starts when we start to neglect and treat our free will wrongfully otherwise if we stay pure (without external causes to contaminate our nature and toughts) our belief in single creator is inherent and with the help of education and personal will to posses knowledge, everyone is bound to find the right path.

8. Al-Haleem (The Most Forebearing)
http://www.godnames.org/godnames.php?f=SiteMap

shafique wrote:Yes, I do believe that Kung's clear conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus trumps your weird argument that God does not love everyone according to loon interpretations of the Quran.

I see no attempt to dispute the conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the God Jesus prayed to, and therefore your whole argument is based on a loon interpretation.

Such as it always was.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, but what does the 'complete' Koran say ?

I wouldn't think one would need to consult the corrupted and abrogated texts of other religions to learn whether or not allah loves disbelievers.

Yes.. so if the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the same God of Jesus according to Prof Hans Kung - a Christian theologian, then your whole argument has been shot to pieces.

He's aware of what the Bible says God's attributes are and concludes that the God of the Quran is one and the same.

God loves all creation - only loons seem to have a weird way of looking at scripture, it seems.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I just thought it was a weak argument that Muslims must consult the texts of other religious books to better understand 'allah'.

I take it this as your concession that the Koran does not contain any passage where allah says he loves unbelievers or sinners.

I know - it is very embarrassing for you when the loon theories are exposed as just that - fantastical loon theories.

You can't run away from the fact that your theory has been blown out of the water by Prof Kung who concludes that the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the same God of Jesus - and therefore has the same attributes.

Repeating your discredited loon notions of Islam won't change this simple fact - so it is no surprise you don't even address this simple, fundamental point.

Punked. Comprehensively. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, I've been punked.

I've shown, by quoting the Koran, that allah does not love disbelievers and sinners.

Your brilliant argument is 'but what does the Bible say!'.

Yeah, I'm the one who has been punked.

I know you think you know more about the Bible and Quran than Prof Hans Kung and wish to stick to your loon interpretation, but unfortunately for you your inability to counter the knock-out blow to your argument is most telling.

The God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the God of Jesus and therefore all your posturing and interpretations are blown out of the water.

I fully expect you'll just go and dig out another Memri video or Loon argument and try again... yes, I see you've done that in the politics section. Loons are nothing, if not predictable.

(BTW, we're still waiting to hear your answer about talking Donkeys)

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I'm not the one who is referring to the Bible as evidence of some of allah's attributes.

But for Jews and Christians, such lame attempts of understanding their Creator are not needed since the Bible is a complete book and its passages are clear - God says that he loves non-believers and sinners Himself. We don't need to refer to other religious textbooks that are similar to the Bible to learn whether or not God is all loving.

The God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the God of Jesus and therefore all your posturing and interpretations are blown out of the water.

Really ? Does the Bible say this ? Let's see the passage so that Christians can readily accept that. Otherwise, you're stating a Muslim belief and passing it off as fact. But the funny thing is, is that you're implicitly acknowledging that nowhere in the Koran does allah say that he loves disbelievers and sinners.

That must be a heavy burden for Muslims to know that their creator only loves them some of the time.

Ah, still insisting on ignoring facts I see.

The God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the God of Jesus - and the loons are seething that this is the conclusion of Prof Hans Kung who has actually studied both Quran and Bible. The attribute of Rahman has been explained already, but given that Kung concludes that the God of Jesus is the God of Muhammad, all attributes are the same.

Note how the young one can't even bring himself to address this simple, devastating fact - as it blows his argument to smithereens. The God of the Bible is the God of the Quran, and therefore can't have different attributes (unless one thinks there are multiple Gods?)

How does it feel to be so completely punked eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:But for Jews and Christians, such lame attempts of understanding their Creator are not needed since the Bible is a complete book and its passages are clear - God says that he loves non-believers and sinners Himself. We don't need to refer to other religious textbooks that are similar to the Bible to learn whether or not God is all loving..

Eh, this pastor on this link, doesn't agree with you..
the fact is, sinners are under the wrath of God (John 3:36).
unbelievers remain under God’s awful severity (John 3:36)
http://www.cause-of-god.com/love_sinners.html

The God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the God of Jesus and therefore all your posturing and interpretations are blown out of the water.

event horizon wrote:
Really ? Does the Bible say this ? Let's see the passage so that Christians can readily accept that.

Eh, did you know how 1 god become 3 gods..?
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/Arianism.asp

.

shafique wrote:The attribute of Rahman has been explained already

Indeed, 'mercy' does not mean 'love'.

A liberal judge who sentences criminals to lenient jail terms does not do so because he loves the convicted as they were his own children.

I feel awkward having to explain these basic principles that should have registered to anyone with at least a bit of common sense.

Worse, the Koran explains what allah's mercy really cashes out to. Allah is indeed merciful .... to those who follow him.

shafique wrote:Eh, this pastor on this link, doesn't agree with you..
the fact is, sinners are under the wrath of God (John 3:36).
unbelievers remain under God’s awful severity (John 3:36)
http://www.cause-of-god.com/love_sinners.html

Hey, your argument is not with me, but with shafique.

After all, he is the one who must consult the Bible to prove that the separate god of the Koran loves all - including non-believers and sinners.

I'm sure shafique will explain to you that your 'loon interpretations' are discredited and have been blown to smithereens.

He'll probably condemn you for your 'Christianophobia' for peddling Occidentalist fantasies about the Bible and explain to you the errors in your second link.

Any minute now ......

Why do I need to punk you with another argument?

Your whole theory has been blown away by the simple fact you haven't been able to refute the simple fact that Kung (who has actually studied the Quran and Bible) concludes that the God of Jesus is the God of Muhammad. The attributes of God in the Quran (including Rahman) are very clear, and Kung concluded that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Jesus.

Ergo, your argument fails yet again - all because of a loon interpretation of the Quran. An interpretation that you are desperate to project onto Muslims!

Fail.

Cheers,
Shafique