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On another thread, shafique has begged me to start a new thread so that we can compare the passages in the two respective holy books that deal with unbelievers being sent to hell.

I reasoned with shafique that this would be a bad idea since the Koran's passages on unbelievers and hell are far more numerous and descriptive than the Bible's - in fact, I would argue the Bible is unclear on this subject.

However, shafique has insisted we start this new thread to examine the two holy books on this topic. Since I'm obviously not from the same camp as shafique, I'll let him start this thread off by providing all the passages on unbelievers being sent to hell in the Koran he's aware of.

I would have listed any from the Bible, but the Bible just doesn't have the many passages the Koran does. Unfortunately, that means we'll look at passages from the Koran for most of this thread.

More smoke and mirrors (and it starts with a funny dream eh must have had).

In any case, this topic has already been covered in full (including the Biblical descriptions of fire and brimstone):
philosophy-dubai/life-after-death-according-islam-t11871.html


The real reason eh has decided to attempt his usual distracting tactic, is that we are waiting for eh to clarify his Christian views on what is required for salvation:

Eh - clarify one thing for me: Do you believe that if a person ONLY has faith that Jesus is saviour and that person does NOT do good works, he won't be saved? I've met Christians who say if you have faith you will be saved, regardless of whether you do good works. Is this your belief?

The attempt at changing the subject will not work.

Note - I'll be happy to tackle any additional questions raised in this or the older thread when eh clarifies his view (and we'll just assume that eh DOES believe the Pope is the anti-Christ - I can't be arsed to ask him that question 200 times as well).

Cheers,
Shafique

You certainly have a strange thought process. What does the papal office, founded by the Apostle Peter (he was technically a bishop) have to do with the Koran's passages on unbelievers being sent to hell?

I'm just listing your beliefs and questions you're avoiding - eg believing in the Biblical talking donkeys, that the Pope is the Anti-christ etc.

Why else would you start a thread on a topic that has already been discussed in full and where your misguided view of the Quran has been exposed, again?

But that's beside the point - let's see if you do address the question of your Christian belief of faith and works.

Cheers,
Shafique

Are you now ashamed to compare the passages in the Koran describing unbelievers sent to hell?

You can discuss the apostolic authority of the the See on another thread. Don't think that has anything to do with this thread.

We've discussed the Biblical descriptions of hell in the older thread.

The Christians who believe that the Pope is the anti-christ believe he will burn in hell. Please show me in the Bible how this belief of theirs is 'unclear' as you say. (That this unbeliever, as they view him, will burn in hell - i.e. are they wrong to believe an 'anti-christ' - someone opposing Christ - will burn in hell)

Please show me in the Bible where it says that a Muslim or Hindu is NOT going to go to hell and won't be burnt in lakes of fire and brimstone etc. Show me from the Bible what the fate of a Jewish person alive today's fate is according to the Bible (presumably the New Testament which you believe over-rides the OT) has to say about where the Jewish person is going - heaven or hell.

I've addressed what the Quran says in the link provided, but as you've explicitly put the Bible in your thread title, let's examine your Biblical views on the fate of non-Christians after death.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please show me in the Bible where it says that a Muslim or Hindu is NOT going to go to hell and won't be burnt in lakes of fire and brimstone etc.

Not only can you not show me a passage that says Sikhs, Bahai's or Hindus won't burn in hell, but anyone can point to you the enormous amount of passages that say Pagans and unbelievers WILL burn in hell.

That's what we're comparing, after all. Negative passages outweigh any positive, and the Koran is in abundance in the negative. That's why, I suppose, you want to change the parameters of this thread.

Strange response to a question about a Biblical reference to support/oppose the Christian view that the anti-Christ will burn in hell.

I'm challenging you on your assertion in the OP that the Biblical (and presumably therefore the Christian) view on what happens to 'unbelievers' is 'unclear'.

Christians who say the Pope will burn in hell because he is the anti-Christ - are they misusing the Bible? Show us the verse which shows they are wrong.

Also, show us what the Bible says will happen to Hindus and Sikhs - for example. Which verses can be used to argue against Christians who say Hindus and Sikhs will similarly burn in hell.

You made the statement about the Bible in the OP - back it up, or admit you were full of it - again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Also, show us what the Bible says will happen to Hindus and Sikhs - for example. Which verses can be used to argue against Christians who say Hindus and Sikhs will similarly burn in hell.

Unless we have passages that say Hindus will burn in hell, it's possibly an argument from silence to say they will.

However, the Koran is quite clear that Hindus will burn in hell regardless - since they're Pagans/polytheists.

The Koran is also quite clear that Jews and Christians who have heard the message of Islam and do not accept Muhammad as their prophet/convert to Islam will also burn in hell.

So, we have an argument from silence vs clear proof that unbelievers will be sent to hell.

Why are you reluctant to post the hell fire passages from the Koran? Bad PR?

eh - you made a statement about the Bible in the OP. Back it up, or admit you were full of it, again.

The Bible is clear hell is a nasty place. It is also clear that Christians believe that Hindus and the anti-Christ (some say the Pope) will go to hell.

Are these Christians wrong to believe that Hindus and the Pope will go to hell? If they are, show us the Biblical reference.

Simple question.

The Quran is quite clear about its descriptions of the rewards for those who follow God's commandments and the punishments for sinners (those who go against God's commandments). I don't see any difference between the Biblical descriptions of hell and who goes to it (sinners, bad place) and the Quranic description (sinners, bad place).

You seem to be arguing that the Quran talks about life after death more than the Bible does - and you may be right, I haven't counted the verses in the Bible and Quran which talk about heaven and hell. The Quran tends to contrast the rewards of heavens with the punishment of hell, and I agree there are many verses which reiterate the rewards and punishments of our actions.

I don't understand how this aspect of the Quran makes it worse that the Bible - fewer descriptions of a fiery hell doesn't make hell less unpleasant, does it?

Cheers,
Shafique

eh - you made a statement about the Bible in the OP. Back it up, or admit you were full of it, again.

And what statement did you imagine me making?

It is also clear that Christians believe that Hindus and the anti-Christ (some say the Pope) will go to hell.

This is the thread to compare the verses of the Koran and Bible vis-a-vis unbelievers going to hell.

Let's look at the passages from the Bible and Koran that say 'Hindus go to hell' and then conclude which of the books actually say unbelievers go to hell.

Are these Christians wrong to believe that Hindus and the Pope will go to hell? If they are, show us the Biblical reference.

Let's look at the passages first off and then decide. Where does the Bible and Koran say Hindus go to hell?

If Hindus are polytheists/pagans, then we can substitute Hindu for the previous terms and draw the conclusion that the Bible/Koran says Hindus are hellbound.

I've merely said that for now, it would be an argument from silence to say Hindus go to hell according to the Bible if we are not presented with verses that actually say Hindus are sent to hell.

I don't see any difference between the Biblical descriptions of hell and who goes to it (sinners, bad place) and the Quranic description (sinners, bad place).

The difference is that in the Koran, unbelief = sinning. The Koran is quite clear that unbelievers are sent to hell if they hear the message of Islam and do not convert. The Koran is also clear that polytheists/pagans are hellbound regardless of ever hearing the message of Islam - v.2:62 only refers to monotheists who have not yet heard the message of Islam, they will be judged by their works and faith.

You seem to be arguing that the Quran talks about life after death more than the Bible does

I think I've been clearly saying is that the Koran talks more about unbelievers being sent to hell than the Bible does.

I see you want to twist that as 'arguing that the Koran talks about life after death more than the Bible'.

fewer descriptions of a fiery hell doesn't make hell less unpleasant, does it?

We also have to look at the sins that send people to hell. The Koran includes unbelief as one of these sins and states clearly that unbelievers will be sent to hell numerous times.

Do you disagree?

As I said, if you'd read the Quran, you'd find that God states the rewards of the afterlife as much as He describes the punishments.

I repeat - how is the Biblical description of Hell (and who goes there) any different from the Quranic descriptions?

Do disbelievers/sinners go to heaven or hell according to the Bible? How about those with faith but who don't do good works?

Why are you avoiding what Christians think will happen to Hindus and Sikhs - they go to hell according to Chrstian theology, don't they? If not, what happens to them - given that they don't believe in Christ?

It is up to you to show us how the Bible treats those who don't follow God's commandments (according to the Bible). The Quran is quite clear on the rewards and punishments. I guess the clarity is a positive aspect of the Quran - and explains clearly the choices we face.

Cheers,
Shafique

Why are you avoiding what Christians think will happen to Hindus and Sikhs - they go to hell according to Chrstian theology, don't they? If not, what happens to them - given that they don't believe in Christ?

Quote the Bible and we'll see if they do.

I'll in turn do the same for the Koran.

You want me to tell you your belief?

What a weird person you are eh.

But hey, always up for a challenge and Google is quite handy with these types of challenges.

Let's see:

Incredible! Bible Proves That Jesus Christ Is The Only Way To Heaven!
Posted on April 23, 2010 by WF WHITE

Does it really make a difference what a person believes? Will all religions take us to the same place in the end?

What could be any more important than knowing where you are going to spend eternity? Perhaps the thought of what will happen to your soul after you die has crossed your mind over the years but somehow you manage to squash the thought whenever that happens. Today I would like you to consider that thought and follow it through as I address the question of whether Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Of course this article will be answering that question in the affirmative and I will be using the Bible, which I believe to be the Word of God, to defend my position.

Jesus Declared That He Was The Only Way

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

...

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:14-16)
...

And also

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

http://soulrefuge.org/2010/04/23/incred ... to-heaven/

More at the link.

So, you asked for Biblical references - there you have them. The guy quite rightly points out that those who don't believe in Jesus as saviour will be damned and condemned according to the Bible. That means that Hindus are going to Hell according to these clear verses - doesn't it?

Cheers,
Shafique

Now let's make a quantitative comparison with the Koran:

And whoever desires a way of life other than the Submission (to the Commands of Allah), it shall not be taken from him with approval, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. [3:85]

Surely those who disbelieve, and die disbelieving, there shall not be accepted from any one of them the whole earth full of gold, if he would ransom himself thereby; for them awaits a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers. [3:91]

....Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers. [5:5]

those who deny Allah's Revelations will be the losers [10:95]

It seems pretty clear to me, the Koran says those who reject Islam will be sent to hell. Do you disagree?

Err, no - let's deal with whether Hindus go to hell or not according to the Bible.

'He that believeth not shall be damned'

and

'he that believeth not is condemned already , because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)'

You asked for the Biblical references - here they are.

Let's confirm that the Christian belief is that 'non-believers' are damned and condemned. Are we agreed on this first part?

Then we can see what Hell is like in the Bible, and then we can compare and contrast with the Quranic descriptions.

Your initial claim in the OP that the Bible is 'unclear' is looking as dodgy as many of your other arguments, young one.

Tackle the Biblical verses first.

Cheers,
Shafique

Happy to compare the more numerous Koranic passages that say Hindus go to hell with that of the Bible.

The Koran is also more descriptive on the tortures of hell for unbelievers. But perhaps you've already forgotten about that the last time we looked at this issue?

Why are you avoiding tackling the Biblical verses which disprove your claim in the OP that the Bible is 'unclear' about the fate of Hindus?

Bible seems pretty clear in the verses highlighted in red above. Do you not believe? Or are you just ashamed?

Cheers,
Shafique

Why are you avoiding tackling the Biblical verses which disprove your claim in the OP that the Bible is 'unclear' about the fate of Hindus?

I say unclear because the Bible clearly says those who know not, sin not.

If Hindus are 'sinning' by practicing their religion (something that is taught in the Koran) then they are not actually sinning according to the Bible if they have not heard the message of Christianity and therefore have no information that their actions are wrong (assuming that Hinduism could be construed as sinning in Christianity as it is in Islam - which hold all Pagans/polytheists in low regard regardless of circumstances).

Now, do I need to remind you that the Koran contains *more* verses describing unbelief as a sin and of unbelievers being sent to the fires of hell?

Are you saying there are verses in the Bible that contradict :

he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:14-16)

and

he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

Please provide these contradictory verses and explain how it is unclear that Hindus won't be among those who are damned and condemned according to these verses.

(I still don't understand your argument that the Quran having allegedly more verses talking about the rewards and punishment in the after-life make it worse than the Bible's teachings that non-believers go to a fiery hell - fire and brimstone and eternal torture etc. I haven't counted the Quranic references to HEAVEN AND HELL and compared them with the number of times the Bible talks about Heaven and Hell, so haven't verified your theory - I just think it's moot, as the Bible states clearly that non-believers go to Hell and the Biblical description of Hell isn't a holiday camp.)

Cheers,
Shafique

The Bible in those verses says nothing of 'hell', unfortunately.

We can compare these passages with the verses that tell Muslims that non-Muslims are sinners due to their unbelief and destined for eternal punishment.

Wonder if that is partly responsible for Muslim intolerance against non-Muslims. Non-Muslims are seen as inherently sinful (by definition) and it doesn't make sense to have a positive relationship with people so sinful that they'll burn in hell. From an Islamic perspective, that would be like hobnobbing with murderers.

shafique wrote:Please provide these contradictory verses and explain how it is unclear that Hindus won't be among those who are damned and condemned according to these verses.

I trust you won't make me ask this question the usual 50+ times before you answer.

Biblical references should take the form of a quote or a verse reference. Such as:

..he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

Cheers,
Shafique

“If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

John 9:41

Seems pretty clear to me.

..he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

How does John 9.41 apply to Hindus who do not believe in the only begotten Son of God? Where does 9.41 say they are not condemned?

How does John 9.41 relate to Hindus going to heaven or hell? Are you saying it says they will be in heaven? How did you make this leap of imagination?


Cheers,
Shafique

Are you saying it says they will be in heaven? How did you make this leap of imagination?

Are those passages saying they're going to hell (like the Koran does)?

The verse seems pretty clear to me. Jesus said even the people who hear his message could still be 'blind', and therefore not sin.

The Bible is a step ahead of the Koran, which doesn't provide the same safety net for sinners. Non-believers who hear the message of Islam but do not convert are destined for the fires of hell.

Yes, these two verses do say to me that the Bible teaches that Hindus (who do not believe in Jesus as saviour, by definition) will be going to hell (as that is the destination for those 'condemned' and 'damned').

Indeed, this is EXACTLY the point the author who I quoted was making - he was quoting these Biblical verses to emphasise the fact that the Bible says only those who accept Jesus go to heaven.

How does John 9.41 relate to Hindus going to hell according to the Biblical verses:

..he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:14-16)

and
..he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

I thought you were a Christian. If you have started a new religion which states that Hindus go to heaven despite these Biblical verses, shouldn't you give it a new name?

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, these two verses do say to me that the Bible teaches that Hindus (who do not believe in Jesus as saviour, by definition) will be going to hell (as that is the destination for those 'condemned' and 'damned').

Does the Bible say those condemned are destined for hell?

BTW, what is your interpretation of Koranic v3:85?

Yes, the Bible does indeed say that Hindus etc are damned and condemned and as posted earlier, this is what Christians say shows that Hindus etc go to hell and not heaven:
http://soulrefuge.org/2010/04/23/incred ... to-heaven/

What is the name of your new religion where Hindus don't go to hell? Where do the damned and condemned go in your new religion, if not hell?

Cheers,
Shafique

What is the name of your new religion where Hindus don't go to hell? Where do the damned and condemned go in your new religion, if not hell?

Perhaps the same place as Christians go to after death, since those with sin cannot see the face of God.

What is this place where the damned and condemned go after death called in your new religion?

How is it different from the place Christians call 'Hell'?

Cheers,
Shafique