shafique wrote:I'm happy to debate these issues with you - but I fear you are not looking for a rational debate.
Just because I started a thread with a strong way in voicing my opinion and questioning other muslims dosen't mean I don't know what I'm talking about or am just trying to make Islam look bad. Below you'll find me using common logic in defending gays while you are going around the subject to imply that killing them is OK.
Capital punishment forms part of a judicial system for a society and is found in secular societies around the world - eg China and the US. If one accepts the premise that we need laws and systems of punishments for those who break the law, then the debate becomes what should be allowed/forbidden and what the punishments should be.
I haven't said otherwise, have I? But seeing as people are still humans even after they commit crimes then they should be treated as such. I'm against sadistic punishments such as the ones displayed in the Shariah law.
Misrepresenting a whole religion with sensationalist headlines/phrases is not a good basis for a rational debate though. For example, where in Islam does it say it ok to crucify theives after having amputated their hands?
Oh it very much says so and I'll gladly fetch you up the english translation of the verse taken from the Quran itself, I have been taught it just the other day.
As for Homosexuality being forbidden - yes this is the case in Islam. It stems from the teachings that the foundation of a stable, functioning society is the nuclear family where both men and women have rights and obligations. Women have the right to own property, own their own businesses, manage their own money and affairs and ultimately the right to divorce. The men are given the responsibility to be the providers and have no rights over the property and earnings of their wives.
In the partnership that is a nuclear family, the emphasis on women is to play the vitally important role of raising the next generation - a job that yields the greatest investment for the family, society and the world - so vitally important that Islam teaches that 'Paradise lies under the feet of the mother'.
Homosexuality is viewed as a perversion, along the lines of how paedophillia is viewed by most people around the world. There are organisations that will argue that paedophillia is natural and just a way for people to express their love of one another - and as long as the child is happy and concedes, where is the harm?
Way to go trying to distract people from the main point with the whole "women do this and men do that" speech. You still haven't given me a valid reason on why it's right to kill gays and lesbians in Islam. Like I said, if it's wrong in Allah's eyes, why not just say "it's wrong so don't do it" and that's it? If you don't think murdering people for being gay is right, why try to defend it?
Executing people because of thier sexuality is gross bigotry. Period. The "nuclear family" reason dosen't make it right to intrude on other people's harmless choices. comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is wrong, in the first the child is being harmed because kids can't make certain choices for themselves and are easily taken advantage of. While in homosexuality, gays are actually helping our over populated earth and the ones who choose to form families are doing so through adopting kids who were abbandonned by thier straight parents.
To give me the "straight people and thier oh-so-stable houses" reason is so lame, gay people can do that too. And straight people can have a less than stable home- so why try to say that gay people can't form a good home enviroment for thier kids? It happens that straights sometimes fck up too.
Finally - on the point of cutting off hands, even a cursory investigation will reveal that the punishment is not meant to be carried out for petty crimes, but as a punishment of last resort and as an alternative of just locking up the perpetrator. It also is a strong deterrent.
Look, I know what I'm talking about, I've been going to a fcking maddrassa all my life. A thief who steals something that costs 1/4 of a golden Dinar (about 80 Emarati Dirhams) should get thier hand cut off. Trying to give that thief an alternative punishment or using hands-cutting as a "last resort" is something frowned upon by Islam.
Not to mention the "way" the whole process should happen- as in doing it quickly right after the ruling is given and in a public square for people to watch.
And after cutting the hand, the thief's wound is shoved in boiling oil for it to close.
I think that's gross and inhumane. Specially that we're talking about theft not murder. I'm not saying everything in Islam is wrong, I just don't get it how some things which are so bloody in it can be accepted with ease by other muslims. Cause I don't think thoes things are right. How it's ok to kill people because of thier sexuality and then justify it.
I'm an arab, you don't need to do that arabic-to-english translations (except if it wasn't directed at me).