Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

What's in a name? Hitler's party stands for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. That sounds pretty left to me. My understanding is that Hitler both hated communism and capitalism. Both were inventions of the Jews according to him. Question is why nazism is considered far right? Is that the biggest victory of the left church yet? Nazi Germany was state controlled, and Hitler was very much for a German welfare state.
The reason that nazism is considered far right is I think because of their racial ideas, but for the rest is was pretty much what the left church today has as a main program. Was Stalin far right because of his russification program? I think Hitler and Stalin are pretty much the same, both belong to the left.

This is a curious argument.

Firstly, we should question why this question is being asked now and who is asking the question (generally, not FD in particular) and what is being sought in the answer to the question in the thread title.

On the one hand, it appears a legitimate historical question. The Nazis and today's neo-Nazis, xenophobes etc are all referred to as 'right wing' or 'far right wing'. However, those who share right wing views aren't happy that the Nazis are included in the 'right-wing' group. There are those in America who are rabidly anti-Communist who view Nazis as the same as communists (and hence the Stalin, Hitler comparison by FD curiously has echoes of this).

Now, Mussolini made the trains run on time and nationalised industries. But is he a fascist or a left-winger? But does a state who gets their trains running on time (Swiss or Japananese or Germans) mean they are fascist? That would be a ridiculous argument - Mussolini was fascist and right wing. So was Hitler and the Nazis.

My view is that this is nothing more than a weak attempt of the right to try and get rid of the fact that the far-right share Nazi ideology (the bad parts).

I'm therefore with the majority who view Nazis as right wing.

Wiki's entry has more info on this - starting with the definition and origin of the ideology:

It is a unique variety of fascism that incorporates biological racism and antisemitism.[5] Nazism was founded out of elements of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany.[6] The ideology was developed first by Anton Drexler and then Adolf Hitler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[7] Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930s to gain the support from industrial owners for the Nazis; focus was shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism



Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:This is a curious argument.

It´s a very legitimate question.

shafique wrote:Firstly, we should question why this question is being asked now and who is asking the question (generally, not FD in particular) and what is being sought in the answer to the question in the thread title.

You speak in riddles.

shafique wrote: it appears a legitimate historical question.

That´s because it is.

shafique wrote:The Nazis and today's neo-Nazis, xenophobes etc are all referred to as 'right wing' or 'far right wing'.

Er no, they are extreme right or far right.

shafique wrote:However, those who share right wing views aren't happy that the Nazis are included in the 'right-wing' group.

That´s a bit far fetched.

shafique wrote:There are those in America who are rabidly anti-Communist who view Nazis as the same as communists (and hence the Stalin, Hitler comparison by FD curiously has echoes of this).

Huh, what?

shafique wrote:Now, Mussolini made the trains run on time and nationalised industries. But is he a fascist or a left-winger? But does a state who gets their trains running on time (Swiss or Japananese or Germans) mean they are fascist? That would be a ridiculous argument - Mussolini was fascist and right wing. So was Hitler and the Nazis.

Not a very compelling argument.

shafique wrote:My view is that this is nothing more than a weak attempt of the right to try and get rid of the fact that the far-right share Nazi ideology (the bad parts).

Yes, the far right might share nazi ideology, what´s your point? And what do you mean that the right wants to get rid of the concept that the far right shares nazi ideology?

In general, are there any substantial arguments against the concept of nazi ideology being more extreme left than extreme right?

Mussolini was fascist and right wing. So was Hitler and the Nazis.

Comrade Mussolini was a Left Nationalist Socialist admired by Comrade Lenin.

Mussolini was fascist and right wing. So was Hitler and the Nazis.

So your argument is Hitler and Mussolini were both "right wing" because you say so. I think even children know a conclusion will not be in the same sentence as your original belief. You know, things like facts and rhetoric form the body between your initial premise and your ending conclusion.

My view is that this is nothing more than a weak attempt of the right to try and get rid of the fact that the far-right share Nazi ideology (the bad parts).

My view is that you are once again stating something to be factual without making much (any type) of an argument.

Nor have you shown how Nazism or fascism have direct connections with classical liberalism or what is today conservatism.

If Mussolini is the architect of fascism - and he is as far as I know - then fascism can arguably be shown to have its roots in revolutionary socialism.

Initially Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big business, anti-bourgeois, and anti-capitalist rhetoric, though such aspects were later downplayed in the 1930s to gain the support from industrial owners for the Nazis; focus was shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes.[8]

So the Nazis preached a type of class warfare and were pro-worker. Notice that the rest of your quotation doesn't present the case that the Nazism or fascism is right of the political spectrum. FD has already conceded that the Nazis' views on race were right-wing but his skepticism of the Nazis being fully to the right on economic policy is actually supported by your quote.

The Fascist Manifesto should clear up the misunderstanding that fascism is on the extreme "far-right" of the political spectrum - I've highlight what sounds socially and economically Left leaning or anti classical liberalism:

Politically, the manifesto calls for:

* Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women;
* Proportional representation on a regional basis;
* Voting for women (which was opposed by most other European nations);
* Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
* The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
* The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers (this concept was rooted in corporatist ideology and derived in part from Catholic social doctrine).

In labour and social policy, the manifesto calls for:

* The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
* A minimum wage;
* The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
* To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
* Reorganisation of the railways and the transport sector;
* Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
* Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the manifesto advocates:

* Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
* Armaments factories are to be nationalised;
* A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the manifesto advocates:

* A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
* The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
* Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
* The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

Flying Dutchman wrote:In general, are there any substantial arguments against the concept of nazi ideology being more extreme left than extreme right?

I don't think so, Nazism and fascism are both incongruent with Free Market Capitalism / Classical Liberalism and Marxist class theories.

Fascism doesn't sit well with any modern or classical Right/Left economic/financial and social policies.

The Nazis battled the socialists on a street level for support from the working class. Both the Nazis and socialists opposed all other political parties in Germany - Left and Right leaning - in calling for and supporting the German workers going on strike...as just one example.

Fascism is practically driven - the Nazis held traditional social roles for women; women should be mothers and produce and raise children for the state, but departed on traditional social conservatism on the issues of single mothers, s3x before marriage, abortion and the use of contraceptives.

The National Socialist Program would of course be opposed by all of the current Republican presidential candidates (highlighted in bold, otherwise progressive legislation is underlined):

*We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

*All [Germanic] citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

*Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

*In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

*We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

*We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

*We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

*We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

*The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

*The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, the far right might share nazi ideology, what´s your point?

My point is that the Nazis are right wing - because of their right wing ideology as detailed in the wiki link above. Trying to label them otherwise is a curious phenomenon and interesting to behold.

Whilst it is a historical fact that Hitler/Nazis had an official Christian church and 'Positive Christianity' was encoded into the Nazi constitution - no one credibly argues that Nazi ideology is 'Christian'. To me, arguing that the Nazis are left of centre politically is as silly. But that's my opinion.

philosophy-dubai/third-reich-christendom-t48402.html

Cheers,
Shafique

Would someone please point out to the Troll that one single aspect of Nazi ideology does not accurately represent all Nazi ideology - such as their views on finance, politics, labor and social policy. Which is something the Troll has conveniently overlooked when he arrived at his brilliant conclusion (and original premise) that the Nazis were right wing because the Nazis were right wing.

Bingo.

The Nazis having an official Christian church does NOT make them Christian. Their right wing ideology does make them right wing.

Current day Right wing pointing to some policies they view as left wing, does not make the Nazis left wing, any more than they are 'Christian'.

Cheers,

Shafique

Their right wing ideology does make them right wing.

So does their left wing ideology make them left wing?

Current day Right wing pointing to some policies they view as left wing, does not make the Nazis left wing, any more than they are 'Christian'.

That would be because Christianity was not a requirement for being a Nazi or German citizen.

Current day Right wing pointing to some policies they view as left wing, does not make the Nazis left wing

Sorry, what?

If a political party is not judged by its policies then on what standards are they judged by?

Who, besides you, claims that nationalization, division of profits and distribution of wealth is only viewed as Left wing by right wing politicians? Care to quote any political scientist that distribution of wealth or nationalization is not Left wing? No? Didn't think so.

Which political parties, in the modern era and historically, have embraced the above mentioned policies of the Nazi regime?

Which political parties have opposed the above mentioned policies of the Nazi regime?

Yes, in a nutshell I disagree with you that Nazis are left wing.

I don't think they are Christian just because they had an official Christian church and I don't think they are left wing because you highlight some aspects of their ideology that can be viewed as left wing. The main characteristics of the Nazi ideology is what defines them - and hence why they are right wing.

The main reason they are right wing is that their ideology stems from far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement, and it is this same ideology that makes neo-Nazis and their ilk also right-wing.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:The main characteristics of the Nazi ideology is what defines them - and hence why they are right wing.

Up until now one charactetistic of nazi ideology that can be viewed as extreme right is their racial ideas. Anything else, or you just keep on trolling with non-sense and repeating yourself concerning a point made in the OP already?

--- Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:33 pm ---

event horizon wrote:Fascism doesn't sit well with any modern or classical Right/Left economic/financial and social policies

That's it IMO. We try to push things in right or left, while it doesn't fit the traditional view of left and right.
Also, In due time, certain ideas have become associated with left or right wing. A pro-Israel stance for example is considered a right-wing concept. A pro-Israel person doesn't have to be right wing though.

It comes down to what you believe characterises Nazi ideology.

You asked

Flying Dutchman wrote:Question is why nazism is considered far right? Is that the biggest victory of the left church yet?

I think it is his right wing policies - the most notable of which being his racist views.

Call someone a Nazi and most people will not think 'oh, he's accusing the person of being a socialist' or 'he's accusing a person of being a Christian'.

We agree that the racism is right-wing. Perhaps this answers your question, and not some 'left church' conspiracy. As conspiracy theories go, it is one of the more imaginative ones. Good luck with it, and thanks for sharing.



Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:I think it is his right wing policies - the most notable of which being his racist views.

This is the only argument mentioned so far (the racist policies), including me and a few times by you. Again, anything else, or you just keep on trolling?

And no, I donot believe nazism is associated with traditional right wing. Conservatives are as far from nazism as Labour.

As I stated in my previous post - perhaps it is the fact that the racist policies of the Nazis are what define them is what makes them right-wing.

But let's examine what key elements of their ideology were:

Key elements of the Nazi ideology

National Socialist Program
Racism
Especially anti-Semitism, which eventually culminated in the Holocaust.
The creation of a Herrenrasse (Master Race= by the Lebensborn (Fountain of Life; A department in the Third Reich)
Anti-Slavism
Belief in the superiority of the White, Germanic, Aryan or Nordic races.
Euthanasia and Eugenics with respect to "Racial Hygiene"
Anti-Marxism, Anti-Communism, Anti-Bolshevism
The rejection of democracy, with as a consequence the ending the existence of political parties, labour unions, and free press.
Führerprinzip (Leader Principle) /belief in the leader (Responsibility up the ranks, and authority down the ranks.)
Strong show of local culture.
Social Darwinism
Defense of Blood and Soil (German: "Blut und Boden" - represented by the red and black colors in the Nazi flag)
"Lebensraumpolitik", "Lebensraum im Osten" (The creation of more living space for Germans)
Related to Fascism

List taken from Nazism.net and lists the ideology.
http://www.nazism.net/about/nazi_ideology/

To me, pretty much everything on that list is right wing. I don't think we can summarise them all as 'racist' ideology.

Or are some of the elements not right-wing according to you?


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Yes, in a nutshell I disagree with you that Nazis are left wing.

That's not too much of a concern coming from someone whose opening post was claiming the Nazis and fascists and Benito Mussolini (!) were right wing and based his argument on repeating himself:

shafique wrote:Mussolini was fascist and right wing. So was Hitler and the Nazis.

Wow. Now, did you write that line out all by yourself or did you get help from the nearest two year old?

But seriously, the Nazi views of the German people was very much to the far left once undesirables were excluded. All Germans were "equal" as my previous quotes from actual Nazi literature shows. Nationalization of the industries (emanating from Left political financial theory) is actually one of the cornerstones of Nazi policy and ideology as was the creation of a giant public sector accommodating the needs of all German peoples. Hitler was elected and supported due to his financial and early labor policies. Not on his racial theories, which are not integral to right wing politics unlike economics which are the true differences between the right and left.

I know how fond you are of stating what you believe to be facts and using these facts to "prove" your argument as illustrated above with Mussolini, but we actually see Mussolini was a national socialist and you strangely have quieted away after the Fascist Manifesto was posted with its obvious Leftist contents.

Eh, which of the 'Key elements of Nazi Ideology' listed above aren't right wing?

Your wish that Hitler was left wing is curious, but rather than deal with your beliefs - let's look at the key Nazi idiologies.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:which of the 'Key elements of Nazi Ideology' listed above aren't right wing?

Pretty much all of them are not part of traditional right wing. Except anti-Maxists, but that goes without saying going of course.

Most items on the list simply does not fall under a left/right axis. I didn't think anyone would be clueless or ignorant enough to believe media censorship is "right wing". What's "right wing" about it (and an answer to that would involve addressing actual aspects of Classical Liberalism - something you're obviously not familiar with - rather than using a basic statement as your argument, so obviously I'm asking the wrong person)?

Left/right divisions are are inherently economic and then branch off to social policies such as individual vs group rights reflecting the original division between Classical Liberalism and Socialism.

Your wish that Hitler was left wing is curious, but rather than deal with your beliefs - let's look at the key Nazi idiologies.

I'm sorry, key elements of Nazism are their economic policies. They reshaped Germany with a little more than "sieg heil".

That would be like ignoring Communism's entire economic system because it's irrelevant to understanding what communism actually is.

event horizon wrote:Most items on the list simply does not fall under a left/right axis

Really? That surprising statement probably explains why you are confused over why the world considers Hitler and the Nazis to be right-wing and why only some right-wingers are not happy with this.

But let's see the list you think is largely not left or right:

Key elements of the Nazi ideology

• National Socialist Program
• Racism
• Especially anti-Semitism, which eventually culminated in the Holocaust.
• The creation of a Herrenrasse (Master Race= by the Lebensborn (Fountain of Life; A department in the Third Reich)
• Anti-Slavism
• Belief in the superiority of the White, Germanic, Aryan or Nordic races.
• Euthanasia and Eugenics with respect to "Racial Hygiene"
• Anti-Marxism, Anti-Communism, Anti-Bolshevism
• The rejection of democracy, with as a consequence the ending the existence of political parties, labour unions, and free press.
• Führerprinzip (Leader Principle) /belief in the leader (Responsibility up the ranks, and authority down the ranks.)
• Strong show of local culture.
• Social Darwinism
• Defense of Blood and Soil (German: "Blut und Boden" - represented by the red and black colors in the Nazi flag)
• "Lebensraumpolitik", "Lebensraum im Osten" (The creation of more living space for Germans)
• Related to Fascism

(BTW - you can easily confirm that I have listed the COMPLETE list and not selectively edited as you guys tend to do. How many of your supposedly left wing aspects of Nazism are on this list?)

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for re-quoting from a random webpage you found on google.

Any comment on the stated policies in the Fascist Manifesto or the 25 point program of the Nazis that were both posted on this thread?

You're welcome.

You seem to not be in any dispute that I've quoted the whole list from www.Nazism.net which lists the Key Nazi ideologies.

However, you've not answered the question about which of your supposed 'leftish' ideologies are on this list of Key Nazi ideologies. It is almost as if this list doesn't support your right-wing theory that the Nazis were left-wing. Curious that.

Cheers,

Shafique

Event horizon already addressed that Shaf. I know it's futule, but stop trolling, your only contribution is your usual trolling. You have not addressed anything substantial here, just the usual crap of baiting and trolling.

Its your hero Galloway that has a tendency to buddy up with fascists, so you should know better.

I've provided a complete list of the key ideologies of Nazis and asked which of them are 'left wing' (well, to be precise I asked which weren't right wing) and have also asked which of the supposed 'left wing' policies of Nazis appear on the list of key ideologies.



But I think we have an answer to FD and eh's remarkable confusion as to why the world think Nazis are right wing. I submit that it is simply because their key ideologies are indeed right wing.

Cheers,

Shafique

I've already highlighted Leftist policy and ideology from the Nazis' own 25 point program.

I'm not going to reply to websites or your troll posts - they've been discussed already and more meaningful points showing the left wing ideology of the Nazis - their own program manifesto - is ignored.

It's obvious you're a troll and have no interest in discussion.

Part of this is your limited intellectual capacity and ability to process information.

Rather than responding with meaningful replys you simply repeat yourself like the Dustin Hoffman character from "Rain Man".

Yes, I know you're copy-pasting from a website. I also know you've refused to address the Fascist Manifesto and the 25 point program of the Nazis.

The above documents aren't based on what someone with a website thinks of Nazis/fascism but the stated beliefs of the fascists and Nazis themselves.

I post actual Nazi and fascist literature and you post opinions from websites.

I'll let those with a higher iq than room temperature (excluding you, obviously) figure out which should have primary importance in understanding the political and economic platforms of Nazism and fascism.

But I think we have an answer to FD and eh's remarkable confusion as to why the world think Nazis are right wing. I submit that it is simply because their key ideologies are indeed right wing.

Compare fascism with Islamism and we'll see if conservatism / free market capitalism / Classical Liberalism or Islamism is closer to fascism.

But which of your supposed 'left wing' policies are listed in the 'Key Ideologies' of the Nazis as listed by Nazism.net?

If none of your supposed left-wing policies are on the list - isn't that a clue as to why only a few right-wing people believe that the Nazis weren't right wing?

Perhaps people classify the Nazis according to the key ideologies listed?

Cheers,
Shafique

Now what did I say about your limited intellect and ability to read and process information, O Dustin Hoffman character from "Rain Man"?

Just because you don't like the (obvious) answers to your questions - there isn't really a need to resort to name-calling (again).

I just asked a simple question and I guess the non-answer shows that the key ideologies of the Nazis are right wing. QED.

Cheers,

Shafique

If you want non-answers, then see your response to the 25 point program of the Nazis and the Fascist Manifesto I've posted on this thread.

I just asked a simple question and I guess the non-answer shows that the key ideologies of the Nazis are right wing. QED.

Once again, troll, the key ideologies of Nazism doesn't lie in the imagination of some person with a website but in the 25 point program of the Nazis.

Shaf, if you are claiming that there was/is no such thing as racism, anti-semitism, no democracy or leader worship in commi countries, you have to do some catching up to do IMO.

FD - why the spin?

I'm simply stating that the obvious reason why only a few right-wingers think Hitler was left wing is due to the fact that the Key Nazi Ideologies listed are right wing and define what Nazism is.

It really isn't that complicated. If you put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig. Your 'Nazis are left wing' arguments are the lipstick.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm simply stating that the obvious reason why only a few right-wingers think Hitler was left wing is due to the fact that the Key Nazi Ideologies listed are right wing and define what Nazism is.

That makes no sense at all.

Its obvious by now fascism has its origin in the left. A main difference is I think that when reading the fascists points, the class stuggle is replaced by some kind of nationalistic (or race) struggle. I can see it back in the reasoning behind the nazi flag:

In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for victory of the Aryan man.

So, according to you Shaf, the following is right wing:

We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.