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shafique · Jan 16, 2011

So, when I tackle herve's accusation that the complete statement by Hamas made by the minister of Information is 'awkward' - and ask for some evidence to check whether Zahar has indeed gone against Hama's stance - we get a simple accusation that I'm lying, and yet ANOTHER accusation.

And herve is mistaken yet again. The statement from Hamas was not given in an interview - it was in a complete statement that he issued, as Minister of Information, and was published in a western newspaper. He wrote it and it was published and disseminated - it was not an interview. Try again herve.

And yes - I too am getting tired of repeating the same request for evidence for the accusation against Zahar - just to highlight that the usual tactic of accusation based on selective quote is being used, and that when evidence is requested, previous attempts of selective quotes are rolled out! :roll:

In the meantime - Hamas' clear words are there like a thorn in the side of those who desperately want to BELIEVE the spin, despite the evidence.

So, let me repeat:

shafique wrote:herve - I'm still waiting for anyone to produce the transcript so we can compare what Zahar actually said (in full) with what the Hamas Minister of Information stated was Hamas' stance on the Holocaust.

I found nothing ambiguous or awkward with the clear statement. If you click on link, you'll see that when it was published in the UK newspaper, the headline was:

Hamas condemns the Holocaust

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression

And he was even clearer in the text - he uses the word 'clear' and says specifically that HAMAS and Palestinian Government DO NOT deny the Holocaust, but see it as a crime against humanity, and one of the worst crimes in modern history. They condemn it.

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

What seems to be awkward, is your side's inability to back up your beliefs with any quote that is complete and not questionable.

I'll continue to repeat that we're waiting for some evidence to check whether Zahar does contradict Hamas' view on the Holocaust. If he does, I'll condemn him. Until then, it looks like YET ANOTHER example of selective spin.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 16, 2011

Again, you twisted my words, you do it on purpose, you are dishonest , desperate and a liar, read my post again.
I said the interview was of Zahar, not a statement , the statement was from the health minister and was in contradiction to other hamas leaders statements.

shafique · Jan 16, 2011

Fail.

It was not an interview, but a complete piece written by the Minister of Information (who is also the Minister of Health). He was obviously not writing in his capacity of Minister of Health.

So, rather than calling me names - perhaps you should spend your energy on actually doing some research and asking yourself why you haven't been able to find a complete statement, from amongst all the allegations, that contradicts what the Hamas Minister of Information clearly states.

Have you given up hope of finding the complete transcript of Zahar's speech? Is it really that hard to find?

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 16, 2011

shafique wrote:Fail.

It was not an interview, but a complete piece written by the Minister of Information (who is also the Minister of Health). He was obviously not writing in his capacity of Minister of Health.

So, rather than calling me names - perhaps you should spend your energy on actually doing some research and asking yourself why you haven't been able to find a complete statement, from amongst all the allegations, that contradicts what the Hamas Minister of Information clearly states.

Have you given up hope of finding the complete transcript of Zahar's speech? Is it really that hard to find?

Cheers,
Shafique

Again what i said and not the other way around as you are twisting my words:
1)Zahar,spiritual leader of hamas = remark during an interview, not a speech not a statement, so there is no need to look for one because there is none, you know it and this is why you are challenging people to find it. I beleive a report by an AFP reporter can be trusted, don't you?
2)minister of health, hamas, that was the statement

shafique · Jan 16, 2011

You've failed yet again.

The original report does not talk about an interview - it talks about a speech made at a memorial service.

Before an audience that included members of the Hamas leadership in Gaza, Zahar paid tribute to those who died in the school where they had taken refuge from the heavy fighting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110106/wl ... ocaustjews

Please do some research - you are embarrassing yourself.

If you do find the complete transcript and can show that Zahar contradicts Hamas' stance on the Holocaust, I will join all those who condemn him. But until then, we have Hamas' clear statement. (Note that the article does not give the full quotes, and does not quote Zahar using the word 'nazi' at all - for example. The word Nazi only appears in the reporter's text and the headline.)

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 16, 2011

shafique wrote:You've failed yet again.

The original report does not talk about an interview - it talks about a speech made at a memorial service.
Before an audience that included members of the Hamas leadership in Gaza, Zahar paid tribute to those who died in the school where they had taken refuge from the heavy fighting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110106/wl ... ocaustjews

Please do some research - you are embarrassing yourself.

If you do find the complete transcript and can show that Zahar contradicts Hamas' stance on the Holocaust, I will join all those who condemn him. But until then, we have Hamas' clear statement.

Cheers,
Shafique

You are wrong, it DOES NOT talk about a speech made at a memorial service, but a remark, paying tribute is NOT the same as giving a speech.
This is what the article says:
Mahmud Zahar made the remarks during a memorial ceremony for 43 Palestinians who were killed at a UN school in the Jabaliya refugee camp during Israel's 22-day war on Gaza that began in December 2008.
"The lie according to which they were a victim of a holocaust and the (Jewish) people are a victim -- this lie has crumbled with the holocaust of Beit Hanun, the holocaust of Al-Fakhura and the other countless holocausts ... committed by the Zionist enemy," he said.
Making a remark is NOT the same as giving a speech.
Where did you see the word speech in the report, the report says "remark" NOT speech, you are dishonest.
You can pay tribute with flowers, salute, firing canons, whatever and not only with a speech

shafique · Jan 16, 2011

LOL.

He did not give an interview, he gave a speech. I refer you to my previous remark about doing some research.

The remarks were part of the speech.

Now that we've established that you HAVE NOT been able to get the full speech (or complete remarks) - we are left with the blaring fact that the Hamas official line is that they don't deny, but condemn the Nazi Holocaust.

(As I've said before, Hamas officials do denounce the cynical use of the Holocaust for zionist propaganda purposes - I too denounce this travesty of justice.. two wrongs don't make a right - but for the purposes of this thread... let's repeat what the Minister of Information clearly states:

Hamas condemns the Holocaust

We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression.

So, pretty much like the noble French Resistance to the Military Occupation they were facing - where, I'm proud to say, Mauritian citizens fought along side the French resistance.

Cheers,
Shafique

herve · Jan 16, 2011

please indicate your source of information that says he gave a speech, because it says everywhere he made a "remark"

shafique · Jan 16, 2011

Edit: Ok - I could not resist doing a quick Google search (as I said, had you done your research herve, you wouldn't have embarrassed yourself).

Gaza - The Islamic Hamas movement's strong man in Gaza, Mahmoud al-Zahar, told a rally Thursday in Jabalia refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip that the "Zionist Holocaust ... was a lie."

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news ... a-lie.html
(Note that this gives a bit more info than the AFP article, but still not the full quote. 'Zionist Holocaust' .. is not the same as the 'Nazi Holocaust'.. see my previous comments about what some Hamas officials do denounce as a lie.)

You are the one that made the claim that Zahar's incomplete quotes come from an 'interview' - indeed you repeated this many times.

The remarks wer actually made in a speech at a memorial service and made to the gathered audience - the OP article states that Zahar addressed the audience. Not an interview.

And in any case, if it WAS an interview (which it wasn't) - the point is that the report in the OP does not contain the full statement in context (Zahar is not quoted saying the word 'Nazi' for example).

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jan 16, 2011

Wow. I'm impressed over how Herve clearly was referring to Zahar's speech but shafique managed to deliberately distort Herve's comments and claim Herve was referring to Bassem Naeem.

Now shafique is trying to claim that Zahar was referring to the state of Israel when he said the Zionist Holocaust was a lie, as opposed to what everyone else can manage to figure out what he meant - the Holocaust in which Jews were killed was a lie.

So is Zahar supposed to be standing up for Israel in his remark now?

Yeah, ok.

Actually, here's another quotes from Zahar from a respectable news source, the AFP:

"The lie according to which they were a victim of a holocaust and the (Jewish) people are a victim ....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110106/wl ... ocaustjews

Flying Dutchman · Jan 16, 2011

shafique wrote:Let me know if anyone does produce the evidence relating to the thread title so we can confirm whether Zahar has indeed contradicted Hamas' clear stance on the subject.

Be wary of people changing the subject or trying to justify this by reeling out previous selective quotes/translations/Memri specials. Keep focus, young one.

shafique · Jan 16, 2011

^Someone tell me whether any poster does get the full transcript to Zahar's speech (or whether they back up herve's view that it was an interview - he asked for evidence, and I've now given him what he requested!) and, more to the point, whether it shows that Zahar does indeed deny the Nazi holocaust and has broken with the official view of Hamas on this point.

Let us remind ourselves (for those tuning in late):

Hamas states that it does NOT deny the Holocaust and condemns it. The allegation in the title of this thread is not based on a complete quote (indeed, in the post above - we have a more complete quote which doesn't use the word 'nazi' at all).

One of these days, hype and reality will line up for the boys - I mean, even a broken clock is right twice a day, they are sooo due a 'win' by now.

(No need to tell me if we just get another outing of older selective quotes or a repetition of beliefs based on selective quotes -just let me know if we get a full transcript of the SPEECH given by Zahar).

I thank you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Jan 16, 2011

shafique wrote:Let's recall the words of Hamas, which continue to be the only definitive, complete and clear statement on the subject:

Hamas' Minister of Information categorically states:

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Full article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... eholocaust

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Hamas Leader Says Nazi Genocide Was A Lie

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