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[shafique]

I've made the point a few times that the statistics show that in Europe and the USA, the terrorist attacks are more likely to come from non-Muslims.

This contrasts with public perception and official spin that the main threat is from Al Qaeda 'inspired' terrorists.

The stats do show that of attacks that take place, only the minority are from the 'jihadist' group.

In the aftermath of the Norwegian Terrorist attack, the NYT ran a piece looking at the motivations of the terrorist (I quoted an extract in the other thread, highlighting his Islamophobic views).

What the article also pointed out was the threat of a similar event in the USA:

The killings in Norway “could easily happen here,” he said. The Hutaree, an extremist Christian militia in Michigan accused last year of plotting to kill police officers and planting bombs at their funerals, had an arsenal of weapons larger than all the Muslim plotters charged in the United States since the Sept. 11 attacks combined, he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25 ... wanted=all

This illustrates what I've been arguing - look at the actual evidence and statistics, and the public perception is not proved correct.

The scary part is, will these types of groups be inspired by the Norwegian Terrorist? The Christian terrorists seem to be much much better armed and successful, it seems. Or am I mistaken?

Cheers,
Shafique

[Bethsmum]

I don't know about mistaken, I think you're just sick and need serious help.

[event horizon]

I think he's off his lithium.

We'll see if ever gets around to calling terrorists who target a church full of Christian worshipers 'Christianophobes'.

[shafique]

Hey, it wasn't me that said that 'it could happen here'.

I would have guessed that most people would be concerned that Christian militias may launch a similar attack in the USA.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Red Chief]

I've made the point a few times that the statistics show that in Europe and the USA, the terrorist attacks are more likely to come from non-Muslims.

Shafique,
Russia, where terrorist attacks happened almost every month, is a part of Europe yet, ragardless of how inconvinient it is for you. Did you invent one more new science again?

[event horizon]

I guess like condemning Hamas as a terrorist group (and condemning Hamas' antisemitic clerics), shafique can't bring himself around to calling Muslims who attack churches 'Christianophobes'.

Their statements taking responsibility for one attack against a church in Iraq by calling it a filthy nest of polytheism seems openly Christianohophobic to me.

"The Mujahedeens raided a filthy nest of the nests of polytheism, which has been long taken by the Christians of Iraq as a headquarter for a war against the religion of Islam and they were able by the grace of God and His glory to capture those were gathered in and to take full control of all its entrances,"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/11/ ... tml?hpt=T1

Christianophobia? Yes or no.

[shafique]

Hey, RC - this thread is about the Christian terrorist treat in the USA. We already discussed the fact the Europol stats covered terrorism in the EU (so perhaps I should have said 'EU' and not Europe.. my bad)

Anyway, interesting that young eh is trying a bit of whataboutery rather than addressing the quote in the OP about the terrorist threat in the USA. What can we conclude from that??

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

So in your comments you were only actually able to name one plot by a Christian militia. The rest of terrorist activity is from the Far Right, Far Left, eco-terrorists and Islamists.

[shafique]

Yes, the comment was about the one Christian Militia group with more ammo than all the Muslim plotters uncovered in the USA since 9/11 combined.

Do you agree with the comment that what happened in Norway 'could easily happen' in the USA? It seems to me he has a very good point.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Red Chief]

Hey, RC - this thread is about the Christian terrorist treat in the USA. We already discussed the fact the Europol stats covered terrorism in the EU (so perhaps I should have said 'EU' and not Europe.. my bad)

I thought the same. If your own OP was about US why did you add that very selective stat about Europe? Your generalization is not only misplaced here but totally wrong.

[shafique]

^I picked the Europol statistics because they were in a Europol report on terrorist attacks in Europe. It was a comprehensive report on Terrorism in the EU. I didn't selectively pick those figures.

I can't see why my statement of the facts is misplace or wrong? Do you dispute the figures for the EU?

Anyway, that's beside the point - you'll notice the presence of 'USA' in the title and that the quote is about the Christian far right threat in the USA??

Cheers,
Shafique

[Red Chief]

^I picked the Europol statistics because they were in a Europol report on terrorist attacks in Europe. It was a comprehensive report on Terrorism in the EU. I didn't selectively pick those figures.

I can't see why my statement of the facts is misplace or wrong? Do you dispute the figures for the EU?

Anyway, that's beside the point - you'll notice the presence of 'USA' in the title and that the quote is about the Christian far right threat in the USA??

Cheers,
Shafique

Europol? Why did not you take the stat, that covers Bolton borough? It could be even more positive for Muslims, that is the only goal of yours.

A dozen suicide attacks in Moscow's subway, theater, hospital, school, airport, blowing up two 20-stores residential buildings(the towers were totally destroyed, noone survived) during one night add something to the European stat, don't they?

[shafique]

Umm, if was talking about terrorism in Bolton, I'd take the stats from Bolton. Duh. In my thread about the truth about terrorism in the EU, I took the stats for the EU.

Anyway, this thread is about the USA - sorry to have woken you from your sleep RC, but let's not go off on tangents about which countries are in the EU and which aren't. (Heck, I'd love to see the Stats from Russia - why don't you start a thread and post them - perhaps there, it would make sense to target the jihadis.. rather than the mafia and other criminals... but I can't say, I haven't looked at the stats. I have looked at the stats for the EU and USA though.. and posted them here.)

Cheers,
Shafique

[desertdudeshj]

You already have people like the Westboro Baptist Church who are just one can short of a six pack. With that mentality put the easy accessiblity of firearms in the US in the mix and It doesn't take a big leap of imagination to see someone crossing the line.

Hopefully it wont happen or is intercepted before anyone thinks about it. But I think it is something to worry about. You don't have to look far to see how much hatred there is and all that hatered festering and stewing for a long time can come to no good

[Red Chief]

Shafique, for your own convinience you juggle "words" Europe, EU and Western Europe. Norway is not the member of EU too. That's why you chose to use the "word" Europe to somehow connect Mr. Brievik to your "European" stat. The mistake is little but post sounds louder, isn't it?

[Bora Bora]

Shaf why do you isolate potential religious acts of terrorism to Europe and the US? If you are going to make a point, go internationally, don't pick and choose for convenience to suit your arguments. What is the likelihood of acts of terror in the Middle East, Africa and Asia by Christians (or any other religion) compared to Muslim terrorists?

[shafique]

^For the simple reason that in Europe and USA the misleading spin is being used to erode basic freedoms and to erroneously target a group which is not the main source of terrorism in both areas.

I'm not saying that fanaticism in Islam should not be tackled - far from it, I welcome the efforts within and without the Islamic community.

However, the misuse (or ignoring) of statistics particularly irks me - as does the Islamophobic spin that it is Jihadists who are blowing things up in Europe and the USA.

In this case we have a clear example of the reality that a Christian militia has more arms than all Muslim plotters combined since 9/11, planned to carry out terrorist acts etc - and this just reinforces the official FBI stats.

Of course, in Iraq or Afghanistan - those dying and many of those doing the killing are Muslim. In Africa, they are African. In China, they are Chinese. In Europe and USA the same applies - but the myth is that the main threat is from jihadists. It isn't, statistically - and I'm constantly amazed at the excuses that crop up when more evidence is uncovered.

Why the strong desire to deny facts? I find that very curious - but my background and training is to work out the underlying truth from statistics, so I guess I'm biased that way.

Cheers,
Shafique

[Bora Bora]

You efforts to shift the focus off Muslim terrorists and put it on non-Muslim terrorists is to prove what??? Whether you realize it or not you constantly, in your own way, basically defend Muslim terrorists in your ongoing efforts to discredit Christians and Jews for acts of terrorism. We are very aware of the fact that there are non-Muslim terrorists individually and through organization, no one is denying that as you claim, but the fact is the majority of Western countries believe that the most likely people to create an act of terrorism where the target is not a specific religion, or race, or government, but a country (UK and the US) - - would be Muslim terrorists.

You seem to want to wash some of the blood stains off of Islam that will be there permanently, put there by the hands of terrorists. Islamic terrorists have committed acts of terrorism in more countries than any individual non Muslim terrorist or non Muslim terrorist organization, and have killed more people of different nationalities and religions combined than any other terrorist act(s) by any one organization or person combined.

I don't see anyone denying that terrorists come in all shapes and forms besides Muslim, but you seem to be on some kind of mission and I think we would like to know what that mission is.

[shafique]

My efforts is merely to highlight the difference between the spin given by Islamophobes such as herve and eh, and the reality.

Whilst people are indeed aware that there are non-Muslim terrorists launching bomb attacks in the EU and USA, the perception is that the bigger threat is from the likes of the shoe bomber or Times Square bomber. The reality is that just one terrorist group in the USA had much more ammo and explosives than all the other Muslim numpties uncovered since 9/11 - but more to the point, ACTUAL terrorist acts by non-Muslims way, way outnumber those by Muslims.

The loons do try to confuse the situation by moving the goal posts and talk about the insurgencies etc in Asia and the Mid East - however, note that when the facts about Terrorist threats and actual attacks in the West are highlighted.

Whilst you don't see anyone denying that there are non-Muslim terrorists, I do see many posts from those who insist that the statistics are wrong in terms of which constitute a bigger a threat. herve refuses to believe the evidence, for example.

Note also that there is a public service motive here too - the resources should be devoted to where the greatest threats are. The Christian militia types and Far-Right nutters, to me, are a demonstrably far greater threat to the USA than the numpty Times Square bomber. Both need to be tackled - but the former have greater access to arms it seems.

Note that the Norwegian Terrorist got all his info about making explosives from Google searches - he gives details of this in his manifesto. It is not a question of access to material - but rather a question of motivation and determination to carry out terrorist attacks.

The statistics therefore also show that non-Muslims in the USA and EU are more inclined to carry out terror attacks than Muslims. That's the evidence. Whether you choose to believe otherwise is a matter of choice.

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

How many people have been killed in the US by Christian fanatics and how many by Muslim.

Similarly, how many Christian fundies have gone over seas to kill and how many Muslim fundies have.

Repeat the same question for Europe and every other country/continent/region and we should determine where the real threat is from.

[shafique]

There's already a thread on the Terrorist Attacks in the USA - covering facts and myths:

Here's an interesting fact - according to the FBI, between 1980 and 2005 there were more terrorist acts by Jewish extremists than there were by Muslim extremists. Note that we aren't talking about acts carried by Jews - but acts carried out by Jews in the name of their religion.


According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.

dubai-politics-talk/terrorism-the-the-facts-t41878.html

Note that it would be interesting to update the stats from 2005 to 2011 - we'll have to add Joe Stack's suicide attack on a Federal building, Florida pipe bombing of a mosque and the MLK parade bombing that was foiled, to name but 3.

Let's discuss stats in that thread - I'd be especially interested in any new figures you have. Note that in that thread I'm sure we discussed that Tim McVeigh and 9/11 are outliers - one on the non-Muslim side and one on the Muslim side. The other terrorist attacks are smaller, but still deadly - the Jewish ones mentioned, were bomb attacks and assassinations, for example.

But what this thread is about the current threat from Christian Terrorist and other non-Muslim terrorists in the USA.

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

As I said, find the number of terror attacks by Christian extremists carried out in the name of religion and compare it to the number attacks by Muslim extremists carried out in the name of Islam.

Also find how many Christian extremists have traveled abroad and compare with the number of Muslim extremists who have done the same.

After that, repeat with Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, etc.

Get back to me with your findings.

Your thread title and OP are about the Christian terrorist threat compared to the threat from Muslim extremists. Obviously, your point is to compare religious fanatics and not people from nominally Christian or Muslim backgrounds who carry out attacks. We can therefore discount Joe Stack, Tim McVeigh and numerous terrorists who did not carry out their attacks in the name of religion - unlike numerous Muslim extremists in just the US.

Of course, you are once again ignoring that the pool for Christian terrorists in the US is quite larger than that for Muslim terrorists. For comparison's sake, let's look at Egypt or Pakistan, which are Muslim majority nations, to see how fundamentalist Christian terrorists stack up to extremist Muslim terrorists.

[shafique]

eh - I agree that the pool of potential non-Muslim nutters is far greater than potential Muslim nutters in the USA.

That indeed is probably a main reason why the threat from non-Muslims is greater - as in the case of the Hutaree.

There is also a difference in quality, as well as quantity. The 9/11 attacks appear to be an outlier - in other instances, the more successful attacks are largely non-Muslim whilst the more numpty attacks are Muslim (pipe bombers vs Times Square bomber).

Yes, I totally agree that in Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan THERE the threat is tangibly and definitely from nutters who are Muslim - but so are the victims. In Northern Ireland the threat is tangibly and definitely from nutters who are non-Muslim (and there there were 99 viable bomb attacks last year).

I would definitely join you in laughing at anyone who argued that the threat from Irish terrorists was a major issue in Egypt or Pakistan. I would fall off my chair if the Christianophobes used this argument to say the Bible's violent verses showed Christians supported terrorism etc.

But in the USA and in Europe, the threat is tangibly and definitely from those who are carrying out the majority of the terrorist attacks - i.e. non-Muslim nutters. We can certainly discuss the reasons why this is (and the larger pool of nutters is a factor, definitely).

Cheers,
Shafique

[Bora Bora]

Shaf, I doubt that the non-Muslim terrorist individuals/organizations deemed as "threats" don't get as much attention from the government as do potential Muslim terroists. I think it's safe to say that the government views potential Muslim terrorists as threats to America, motivated by Islam. Who or what are the targets of the non-Muslim terrorists you speak of and what would the motivation be?

[event horizon]

Yes, I said the number of Muslim fanatics in the US is limited due to size constraints. If there are only ten Muslims living in a country then the maximum number of Muslim fanatics can only be ten.

Due to this limitation, I'm simply pointing out the absurdity in comparing the two.

And strange, I never said there were more Christian fanatics than Muslim. I said the pools for each are of different sizes. But from my research, it's clear Muslims in the US who are willing to carry out terrorism in the name of religion is actually larger. My objection is that the comparison is still misleading as there are too many Christians compared to Muslims, giving people the opportunity to make unfair comparisons.

[shafique]

Shaf, I doubt that the non-Muslim terrorist individuals/organizations deemed as "threats" don't get as much attention from the government as do potential Muslim terroists.

I sincerely hope you're right. Herve was ranting about how this is not the case - but I guess we can discount his words, even though he is ex-intelligence services.

I think all potential terrorists should be monitored and dealt with, and agree with the efforts being made in the Muslim community. Education is key - and I do think good progress has been made. Nutters such as Anjem Choudry are more and more isolated, and more and more Mosques and clerics are taking active steps to educate and exclude these guys (Al Muhajiroon etc are banned from mosques).

I think it's safe to say that the government views potential Muslim terrorists as threats to America, motivated by Islam. Who or what are the targets of the non-Muslim terrorists you speak of and what would the motivation be?

Oh, don't get me wrong - there is indeed A threat from Muslim terrorists. My point has been that the threat from non-Muslim terrorists has been empirically (i.e. in numbers) far greater.

You ask what the non-Muslim terrorists are bombing people for.. Well, the FBI stats show that the very real targets and bombs of the terrorists have been historically against political or religious opponents - eg. Russians targetted by the Jewish Terrorists, abortion clinics and doctors by the pro-Lifers, and the Government authorities by the right-wing nutters (such as the Huttaree Christian Militia).

Now, as the OP is pointing out, there may be those who share the Norwegian Terrorist's hatred of 'liberals' and who may wish to emulate his work - targetting 'liberals' who they think are aiding an Islamic takeover etc.

The scary part is that the non-Muslim groups of terrorists are better armed and have better resolve to carry out attacks (because they are indeed carrying out more attacks than the equivalent Muslim attempts, and their attacks are more successful).

Cheers,
Shafique

[Bora Bora]

You can have 10 non-Muslim people/organizations and the combined numbers would not equate to, not surpass the combined number of 5 Islamic terrorist organizations in the US. Several of the non-Muslim terrorist organizations I mentioned in an earlier list have been disbanded or "keep the faith" going without incident. Although not listed was the KKK and Skinhead groups. I'm sure both continue to exist and members have meetings behind closed doors but the KKK hasn't hung a black person in years nor have we heard of any acts of terrorism by skinheads in sometime. Keep in mind that if an American citizen has a clean record, just about anyone can buy a gun in the US, but you don't read about any of these well-armed organizations committing acts of terror, just individuals who appear to have acted alone and used the same materials to make a bomb that Muslim terrorists use.

[Red Chief]

you don't read about any of these well-armed organizations committing acts of terror, just individuals who appear to have acted alone and used the same materials to make a bomb that Muslim terrorists use.

but reached very different results... probably due to they had spent Fridays learning Chemistry at school...

[event horizon]

Recent news from the past few days:

WASHINGTON - Twice as many Americans as previously reported by law enforcement have traveled overseas to join a Qaeda-linked organization, a congressional investigation found.

The findings, discussed in a congressional hearing yesterday, are an indication the Somalia-based terrorist group has an even deeper reach into the United States.

More than 40 Americans have traveled to war-torn Somalia to join the terrorist group Al Shabab, an investigation by Republican staff on the House Homeland Security Committee found.

Al Shabab, which initially focused on regional grievances, has expanded its focus to include targeting the West and recruiting Americans toward that cause.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washi ... terrorism/

I have no idea what the total numbers are of Muslim extremists leaving for fighting/training abroad but I should expect to see similar numbers of Christian extremists traveling to Uganda to fight alongside the LRA if I am to believe the threat and level of extremism between Muslims and Christians in the US is the same....

[shafique]

You can have 10 non-Muslim people/organizations and the combined numbers would not equate to, not surpass the combined number of 5 Islamic terrorist organizations in the US.

Bora, I agree. This is one of the reasons why the terrorist threat from non-Muslims is higher - the underlying population of potential nutters. I've not argued that this isn't the case - I've rather argued that Islamophobes ignore this basic fact (that the threat from non-Muslim nutters is higher).

Note that I've said tackling the nutters within Islam is important and shouldn't be overlooked.

My argument is with those (like herve) who refuse to believe the FBI stats represent reality.

Keep in mind that if an American citizen has a clean record, just about anyone can buy a gun in the US, but you don't read about any of these well-armed organizations committing acts of terror, just individuals who appear to have acted alone and used the same materials to make a bomb that Muslim terrorists use.

Remember that the potential Muslim nutters are also American citizens - eg the Times Square bomber.

Also, you are being quite selective in your memory. Look at the actual terrorist attacks by Muslims and Non-Muslims in the USA - the Muslims have INDEED been individuals, with the exception of 9/11. By contrast, the terrorist attacks by Jews and far-right have had more done by members of organisations.

The recent Spokane MLK parade bomb attempt - done by far right, and the bomb was a viable device (unlike Times Square). IIRC the guy was part of, or associated with, the Aryan Nations group.

Brievik got his bomb making skills off information on the internet.

As RC points out - the skills of the non-Muslim terrorists are generally piss poor - which goes along with my theory that they are generally numpties - and RC is probably right, they didn't spend enough time in school!! (Thank God for small mercies)

Cheers,
Shafique