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shafique wrote:What part of my statement condemning the Syrian actions and asking you to join me in condemning the more recent acts against the Kurds by Turkey and Iraq confused you dear boy?
....
As for Nato complicity in the bombing of Kurds by Turkey - I suggest you just do a Google, I can't really spoon feed you all the time.

Did Google let you down dear boy?

Ok, let me help you with some reading material.

First, let us start with the actions of Turkey against Kurds within Turkey - see, this for some background (including articles from western media, and references to Nato complicity in these actions - primarily support):
http://www.haroldpinter.org/politics/po ... urds.shtml

Here's an article from Washington Post:
http://www.kurdistan.org/Washington/lostkurd.html

And here's the coup de grace:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200103190010

Pilots patrolling the so-called no-fly zone in the north of the country have spoken angrily about how they have been ordered to return to their base in Turkey in order to allow the Turkish air force to bomb the Kurds in Iraq - the very people the British are meant to be "protecting".

The pilots say that, whenever the Turkish air force wants to launch attacks on the Kurds, the Turks are recalled to base and their radar is switched so that the targets will not be visible. One British pilot reported seeing the devastation caused by the attacks when he resumed his patrol.

You can take a horse to water...

Cheers,
Shafique


Cheers,
Shafique

I guess you don't have evidence that NATO killed Kurdish civilians as you previously claimed:

shafique wrote:(by Saddam and Turkey/Nato). In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed!

In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed! By whom? By Turkey/NATO.

what did I say about taking a horse to water!

Did you even click on the links in my previous post? The last article is the most damning - but it appears you aren't actually interested in the Kurds after all, but rather want to exonerate Nato/Turkey and only blame Syria.

Let me quote to you what is on Harold Pinter's page, taken from a 1999 article in 'The Guardian':

It's the same old story. Since Iraq and Iran are "anti-Western" regimes, the Kurds in those countries are described as victims, or - if they resist - freedom fighters. Since Turkey is a member of Nato, and a "loyal ally" the Turkish Kurds are described as terrorists.

This issue is not simply a queation of what is happening to the Kurds but also of what is happening to freedom of expression and independent thought. Something has been occurring beneath our very noses in Turkey for years: many thousands of people confront substantial and persistent persecution and yet we read little about it in the press and our Government is silent while trade with Turkey flourishes.

(BTW - I just want to check, you do know that Turkey is a member of NATO don't you? This is an obvious point, and I would have imagined you'd know this fact)

Cheers,
Shafique

Sure - I'm aware that Turkey is a NATO member. That's why Turkey is/was in Afghanistan from the beginning after combat operations ended. But are you now saying that Turkey's crackdown on Kurdish rebels was really a NATO operation?

Or perhaps you're now trying to obfuscate the facts after you can't support your previous claim that NATO killed Kurdish civilians?

Oh and please let me know how this ties in with Syria's racist laws (and note that Turkey no longer bans the Kurdish language). Surely you have some up-to-date news articles/UN resolutions pertaining to the racist laws of the state of Syria?

I'm glad you did after all know Turkey was part of NATO, I assumed you did - but wanted to be sure.

So, what is your problem now?

You can't see the link between Kurds being oppressed in Syria 50 years ago and Turkey doing more oppressive things to Kurds more recently (not least bombing the Kurds NOT living in Turkey, let alone those who live within Turkey)?


Can I ask you to just post where you think I said that Nato killed civilians - I just recall saying that Nato was complicit in Turkey's bombing raids on Kurds, and I gave you the evidence - quotes from RAF pilots who were supposed to be patrolling the no-fly-zone to protect the Kurds. NATO let Turkish airplanes bomb and kill civilians in Kurdish parts of Iraq. QED.


It is very interesting to note that whilst I did not hestitate to condemn Syrias actions against Kurds, you are wriggling and squirming when it is pointed out that Kurds have been oppressed and killed more recently by Turkey and Saddam (both with the tacit blessing of the west - and certainly no official condmenations at the time)

Cheers,
Shafique

My bad - I thought the title of this thread would be of a discussion on Syria.

Funny how I should have known that this would turn into a Turkey (blame the West) discussion.

Anywho, seems that Kurdish oppression in Syria is ongoing - since the Kurdish language appears to be banned from a quick google search. Anyways, I would like you to find a few BBC articles and UN whatevers addressing this very important issue, so we can gauge how much attention the Kurds really receive (you say they receive a lot of press, I'll wait to look at the results before I form an opinion).

Can I ask you to just post where you think I said that Nato killed civilians - I just recall saying that Nato was complicit in Turkey's bombing raids on Kurds, and I gave you the evidence - quotes from RAF pilots who were supposed to be patrolling the no-fly-zone to protect the Kurds. NATO let Turkish airplanes bomb and kill civilians in Kurdish parts of Iraq. QED.

Too bad that NATO wasn't involved in the no-fly-zone that your article is referring to (which should highlight how much you really have followed this issue on the Kurds). The RAF pilots (who were probably stationed in Turkey and, therefore, would have taken Ankara's orders) were not under NATO command - this was a British/American venture.

Secondly, your article says that the Kurdish language was banned at the time of the article's publication in 2001. A quick google search reveals that the Kurdish language was banned in Turkey until 1991 after there was a let up in violence between the Turkish government and Kurdish rebels when the Turkish president, of Kurdish descent, removed the ban on speaking/publishing in Kurdish.

So, it looks like you're back to where you started at. Perhaps you can check out if Turkish planes used NATO airfields during the eighties, as I seem to recall, but I don't see any other evidence that 'NATO/Turkey' killed Kurdish civilians.

AMNT?

So you are a fan of Turkey as well as Israel - who would have known!

So, are you saying it was only Brits and Yanks who colluded with Turkey when she bombed Kurds in Iraq? Fair enough, happy to be corrected in using the term 'Nato' when I should have used UK and US. Happy now?

But I'm surprised at your 'supposition' - you are imagining that the RAF/USAF was under the control of Turkey. I suppose this is another of your wild fantasies and it would be futile to ask what you base this 'supposition' on! US and UK bases in Turkey aren't under the control of Turkey. Duh.

Are you really arguing that Turkey ( a member of Nato) did NOT bomb Kurdish villages or invade Northern Iraq and kill Kurds, including civilians? (This would be some serious revision and denial)

I just thought you'd support Kurdish nationalists who have been oppressed rather than just opposed only what Syria did/does. I condemned Syrias activities against Kurds and thought you'd join me in more recent oppression -but I guess you pick and choose who you condemn depending on some other criteria (other than whether they actually oppress/kill etc).

Cheers,
Shafique

So eh, perhaps you can give us your views on the information in this link, detailing how the US have let down Kurds in the past (it gives specific examples, and the events took place after the changes in law in Syria - so are more recent) :

http://revcom.us/a/1226/lvexcerpt.htm

Cheers,
Shafique

Fascinating views, but again, what does this have to do with the *current* racist laws against Kurds living in Syria?

Could you also supply me with numerous news articles (preferably from the BBC, CNN or other major news networks) to show that others were indeed highlighting the discrimination that Kurds experience(d) in Syria *after* it became fashionable to do so?

shafique wrote:So you are a fan of Turkey as well as Israel - who would have known!

So, are you saying it was only Brits and Yanks who colluded with Turkey when she bombed Kurds in Iraq? Fair enough, happy to be corrected in using the term 'Nato' when I should have used UK and US. Happy now?

But I'm surprised at your 'supposition' - you are imagining that the RAF/USAF was under the control of Turkey. I suppose this is another of your wild fantasies and it would be futile to ask what you base this 'supposition' on! US and UK bases in Turkey aren't under the control of Turkey. Duh.

Are you really arguing that Turkey ( a member of Nato) did NOT bomb Kurdish villages or invade Northern Iraq and kill Kurds, including civilians? (This would be some serious revision and denial)

I just thought you'd support Kurdish nationalists who have been oppressed rather than just opposed only what Syria did/does. I condemned Syrias activities against Kurds and thought you'd join me in more recent oppression -but I guess you pick and choose who you condemn depending on some other criteria (other than whether they actually oppress/kill etc).

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought it was Saddam that bombed and gassed the Kurds in Iraq or am i just being a nob?

Nope, you're not being a nob.

Saddam bombed and gassed the Kurds before he became the West's bad guy (i.e. before he started selling oil in Euros and looking like becoming a strong regional leader to challenge Israel's strength in the region - he was just as bad a dictator when he was 'our strong man in the region')

The Turkish bombing and invasion of Northern Iraq to kill Kurds took place after the first Gulf War and when the US, UK and France imposed a no-fly-zone in Northern Iraq to protect the Kurds. The UK and US pilots were ordered back to base to allow the Turks to go into Iraq and bomb, when they had finished the UK and US airplanes were allowed back.

That was Turkey attacking Kurds in Iraq, the last post I gave above was detailing other injustices against Kurds - notably what Turkey has done to Kurds living in Turkey itself.

It's kind of bizare that in a thread where Syrias actions against it's Kurds 50 years ago are highlighted in a 14 year old report, that there isn't more codemnation for more recent attacks against Kurds by Iraq and Turkey since. eh seems more interested in wallowing in denial about Turkey or taking me to task for labelling the UK and US military as 'NATO'.

Cheers,
Shafique

It's kind of bizare that in a thread where Syrias actions against it's Kurds 50 years ago are highlighted in a 14 year old report

The report on Syria's racist laws is as fresh today as it was 14 years ago.

Do you have any relevant news articles by any chance? I did some googling on the discrimination Kurds receive, but I couldn't find any Muslims who actually speak out in defense of the Kurds, as you claim.

Are they as real as the 'quote' of Jesus from the epistle of James?

Did you confirm in your Googling that the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq are being discriminated against and killed - and that these events took place more recently than the events in FD's first post, which I unhestiatingly condemned?

I've told you that when Saddam gassed the Kurds inthe late 80s, I was objecting to this - and I was quite vocal, but there wasn't much condemnation by the West or the Arab/Muslim leaders either. The condemnations came more from ordinary Muslim and other citizens. Notably the Kurds living outside of the area were raising a hue and cry.

I merely invited you to join me in condemning all the injustices committed against the Kurds. Yet you've actually spent most of your posts in this thread disputing the atrocities committed agains them in Turkey and Iraq.

Is it because the Kurds are muslim, or is it because you really want to hate Syria and ignore the facts that Turkey is the one actually killing Kurds (now that Saddam has gone).

(BTW - looking at how Kurds are treated in each country, it appears that Iran is the one who is treating the best.. no discrimination it appears, but quite the contrary - they are protecting Kurdish identity/culture in their laws:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#In_Iran )

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:

It's kind of bizare that in a thread where Syrias actions against it's Kurds 50 years ago are highlighted in a 14 year old report

The report on Syria's racist laws is as fresh today as it was 14 years ago.

Do you have any relevant news articles by any chance? I did some googling on the discrimination Kurds receive, but I couldn't find any Muslims who actually speak out in defense of the Kurds, as you claim.

Are they as real as the 'quote' of Jesus from the epistle of James?

I take it you join me in condemning the mistreatment Kurds have faced by the Turkish state - but are reluctant to join me in condemning the racist laws against the Kurds in Syria (which are actually current - so more recent).

I'm also happy to read whatever articles highlighting the mistreatment of the Kurds by (non-Kurdish) Muslims you can find on google. So far, I couldn't find any Muslim authors who have highlighted their mistreatment on any popular Islamic website or otherwise.

As for the Kurds, you're clearly not boned up on them as much as you claim. Not all Kurds are Muslim, for instance. So, while you throw out a token condemnation for their mistreatment because they are Muslims, I condemn injustices against the Kurds on humanitarian grounds - although I think your analysis of the Kurdish rebellion in Turkey is quite shallow.

You are confused young one.

I did not hesitate to condemn Syria's actions against Kurds that the 14 year old report stated took place in the 60's - nor any current actions. I didn't check to see what relgion they all were when I condemned the actions.

But you are right, not all Kurds are Muslims - just like not all Palestinians are Muslims. Thanks for making this very important point.

What is fascinating is how you are now trying to turn this into a Muslim vs non-Muslim issue. This is funny as well as being tragic and sad.

I suppose you are going to argue next that the Israelis are attacking non-Muslim Palestinians - so you'd argue Jews are attacking non-muslims! (See how ridiculous that sounds). Kurds are predominantly Muslim, the IDF is predominantly Jewish (it contains Druze soldiers as well) - but in both cases their religion doesn't matter when it comes to injustices committed to or by them.

When Saddam gassed the Kurds in Halabja - look to see who was protesting. When Turkey was oppressing its Kurds - look to see whose weapons they used and who was protesting.

Any you are studiously overlooking the ultimate cause of the Kurds suffering - the carve up of Kurdistan by Western powers who drew up the modern day borders. Before them the Ottomans controlled the area, but did not break up Kurdistan.

Cheers,
Shafique

When Saddam gassed the Kurds in Halabja - look to see who was protesting.

Ok - let's see who was protesting. Perhaps it was the same Muslims who we see protesting against Syria's racist laws against the Kurds today?

Yes, you are right. The same Muslims who spoke out against Saddam's attacks against Kurds and Turkey's attacks against Kurds would also condemn the Syrian injustices which stem from 50 year old laws.

Why would you doubt that they would? If they condemn actions by Muslim Turks and Iraqis (who used US weapons), why would they not condemn Syrian discriminatory laws from the 60s?

What is fascinating is your reluctance and bluster about the crimes of Turkey and Iraq, and the complicity of the US and UK in the bombing of Kurds in northern Iraq by Turkey. In my mind, the bombing of villagers and killing of civilians is as worth of condemnation as Syria's laws in the 60s.

In fact Turkey also has discriminatory laws - I linked to the descriptions of them and was waiting for you to raise these as issues. Your silence speaks volumes - but I suspect it is because you did not actually read the references which detail the suffering of Kurds.

Cheers,
Shafique

also condemn the Syrian injustices which stem from 50 year old laws.

Excellent - now let's see who these Muslims actually are. Do you have articles? I couldn't find much about Syria's racist laws, let alone any postings raising awareness of the issue.

As Muslims who supposedly spoke out against operation Anfal, I'll remain skeptical of your claims based on knowledge that I'm aware of.

But let's first start with answering my first (and only?) question in this post - where are the articles highlighting the injustices the Kurds experience in Syria? I'm sure that articles on the net by Muslims (and others) on the 'racist' laws in Israel are a dime a dozen, so let's see the same sort of articles about the Kurds and Syria.

Was Syria discussed at the latest Durban UN racism conference? I am trying to find references.

I find it hard to believe that you guys aren't buddies by now. After all the fierce battles over a couple of words, while basically discussing the same thing repeatedly, its time you guys made up the balance.

In Europe we would call you fella's fundamentally 'radicalized'...

First of all, who carries what agenda exactly? ...Never experienced that much inherent static in a discussion.

It is a fascinating thread.

My first post was to condemn Syrian actions and also to invite the fanbois to join me in condemning more recent attacks against Kurds - in Turkey and Iraq. (In Iran it appears the Kurds are doing fine in terms of tolerance etc)

I wonder how much 'static' there would have been had I NOT condemned the Syrian actions in the 60s!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:It is a fascinating thread.

My first post was to condemn Syrian actions and also to invite the fanbois to join me in condemning more recent attacks against Kurds - in Turkey and Iraq. (In Iran it appears the Kurds are doing fine in terms of tolerance etc)

I wonder how much 'static' there would have been had I NOT condemned the Syrian actions in the 60s!

Cheers,
Shafique

Thats one of my issues Shaffy. You condemn alot. What's with all the condemnations?

For heavens sake. Chill Winstonnnn....

What about your projectile friends. What keeps them so high-powered?

I keep being asked to condemn, and I oblige. (Note, I didn't start this thread - but only invited the fanbois to follow through and support the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq, as well as those in Syria).

I do, however, have fun with those who refuse to condemn actions of Israelis though - I have a whole thread where I keep asking eh-oh to condemn Baruch Goldstein for being a religously motivated terrorist, and he keeps evading the question.

I'm actually quite chilled - but I do enjoy making the fanbois squirm when they refuse to condemn Israeli actions. It is amusing to see the attempted deflections. They would deprive me of much amusement if they just did what I did in this thread and just condemn injustices wherever it happens, rather than make excuses for injustices. I haven't seen anyone condone Syria's actions against the Kurds, for example.


It's a guilty pleasure - but I also see my troll baiting of eh-oh as a social act - it keeps him from polluting other threads.


But that said, you are right - there should be more positive posts. I saw the Palestine push for independence - a peaceful diplomatic efforts for peace process advancement as one such thread, and I guess I can post more about what B'tselem etc are doing.

Cheers,
Shafique

Fair enough.

One suggestion though. Why don't you guys use a little more structure to point out with what status you agree on and with what not, because I tend to get lost in these utter ramblings of you and your friends.

I must say, some subjects are quite interesting indeed, but please keep some overall structure. For the uninformed reader you guys are just a bunch of static on a forum. Easily skipped.

I don't think that is the purpose of your efforts. After all, we have Private Messages for that.

What you say?

I'm open to suggestions - I try to keep the 'static' exchanges in isolated and well-labelled threads so that people can take one look and ignore. Also, where there are good points to be made, I tend to make them at the start of the threads and then refer back to them when we get down and dirty in the tit-for-tat exchanges.

Cheers,
Shafique

That I noticed. Appreciated.

Your friends on the other hand seem to be quite offensive towards you and unwilling to keep it on contents. I don't want to sound like the politburo but in our politics, we don't foulmouth our fellow members. Is this a one party condemnation effort or do these projectiles have an ethics commission also?

I guess I never really understood who carries what agenda in the overall 'static sessions'.

As a moderator I'm quite tolerant of insults against me - and less so when it is directed against others. I also see it as a sign that the argument has been lost

That said, I do have the very bad habit of not letting an issue die a natural death when there are unanswered questions - and I always have something else to say on a subject!

That said, we do have threads where issues are highlighted and discussed in an adult way - and should the static get too bad, I start new threads where I summarise and contextualise the issues.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:As a moderator I'm quite tolerant of insults against me - and less so when it is directed against others. I also see it as a sign that the argument has been lost

That said, I do have the very bad habit of not letting an issue die a natural death when there are unanswered questions - and I always have something else to say on a subject!

That said, we do have threads where issues are highlighted and discussed in an adult way - and should the static get too bad, I start new threads where I summarise and contextualise the issues.

Cheers,
Shafique

I observe some very similar characteristics when reflecting upon myself.

Are we obsessive in some ways?

"My name is shafique and I'm an 'argument' adict..."