The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran

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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Aug 29, 2011
Hey ! I believe in a talking donkey. His has an ogre for a friend and married to a dragon ! :D

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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Aug 29, 2011
Well, there's also a less up-beat talking donkey :

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:D

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Shafique
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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Aug 29, 2011
If no one's around when ants talk, do they make a sound?

Image

(The Ant
027.018 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said:

"O ye ants, get into your habitations,lest(king)(prophet) Sulaiman (alaihisalam) and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."


:wink:
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Aug 29, 2011
Does a bear wipe his butt with a rabbit when he's alone in the woods ?
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Aug 29, 2011
What was that from the young fanatic - was it a weak whataboutery argument:

"hey, I believe in talking donkeys - but that's ok, I believe in talking ants too??' :roll:

(When we last discussed this, I explained that I don't believe in talking ants... rather that this verse is actually about a tribe called Al Naml - 'the ants')

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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Aug 30, 2011
Provide the link to your commentary and then we'll see what it says.
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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Aug 31, 2011
Given that the young one is avoiding answering the Biblical beliefs he has in the relevant thread, and is resurrecting old threads... let's post the questions here for him to see and answer.

He desperately wants to avoid the fact that I DON'T believe in talking ants but rather a tribe called 'Al Naml' whilst he DOES believe in talking donkeys.

Surely he's the one that needs to provide evidence for talking donkeys:

shafique wrote:
Please don't tell me eh is bringing up his straw man AGAIN. He failed to show I believe in superstitions in the past (he's pretty used to failing).

By contrast we have many examples of eh's own evasions on some Biblical events (Biblical beliefs he hasn't condemned and which his fellow American Christians believe in literally):

1. Talking donkeys (not to be confused with the loons aka 'talking a$$s' :D ):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

2. Earth can stop revolving for a day (and the Bible and Science generally):
philosophy-dubai/talking-donkeys-bible-evasion-t42810.html

3. Eh's belief in Rapture (where he will magically disappear one day):
philosophy-dubai/rapture-day-t46391.html
philosophy-dubai/rapture-t39043.html


So, whilst I'm still waiting for any illogical beliefs within Islam (rather than some Muslims with superstitious beliefs/interpretations), perhaps eh can shed light on his own un-scientific beliefs.


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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
shafique wrote:What was that from the young fanatic - was it a weak whataboutery argument:

"hey, I believe in talking donkeys - but that's ok, I believe in talking ants too??' :roll:

(When we last discussed this, I explained that I don't believe in talking ants... rather that this verse is actually about a tribe called Al Naml - 'the ants')

Cheers,
Shafique


Come on Shafique are you still going on about Al Naml being the name of a tribe? I mean I know you rattling with Eh, but this should not sway you from the right course when confronting him over biblical verses.

We do know from Quran that prophet Solomon was given the ilm/knowledge to rule the animal world by the will of God, hence understanding the language of the animal kingdom..

Suleiman knew the language of birds. He had a great kingdom ruling birds, jinn, human beings and armies comprising of them.

http://www.islamandquran.org/common-bel ... quran.html
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
^Berrin, yes I do still believe that God is talking in metaphors when referring to Al Naml.

I don't believe in talking donkeys, or talking ants. Sorry.

Here's another quote:
Why would Sulaiman(pbu) smile in askance at the fear of such lowly creature ants? What valor would a mighty king Sulaiman earn by trampling such lowly creatures suggest on the contrary that these ants were symbolic to a meek tribe lived in the valley, proved from history. Based on this argument, Dr. Hoque, agreed with other scholars who suggested that the word Naml, does not mean the arthropod ants, rather they were a human tribe that lived in that region.

http://www.qurantoday.com/faq_content.htm

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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
Sorry Shafique you can go and believe in any deviated site you wish but I am not gonna behave conceited and unapproachable here just becouse EH pushes hard. But one more questions to you, do you believe a new born baby Jesus could talk like an adult human being in his mums arms?
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
I believe that Jesus could speak as a child yes, but not as a new born baby no. 'Speaking from the cradle' IIRC is what Allah says in the Quran - and can mean Jesus spoke authoritatively as a toddler, or it could be metaphorical in addition to this meaning. I think there is no timescale between verse 19.26 and 19.27 when Mary took the child back to her people - she could have stayed away for longer than just one day, and only gone back when Jesus had begun to speak.

(By coincidence, a week ago at a funeral a relative of mine had his two year old boy in his arms and he was unstoppable in his speech. By contrast my 3 year old son hasn't started speaking fluently yet - so I do believe that exceptionally gifted children can speak as soon as their voice boxes have developed, and that the miracle in the Quran is real - but not a 'new born'.)

My approach to Islam is that Allah has given us logic and will not require us to believe in anything illogical. That is my personal belief and I don't push it on others - indeed my own mother insists on believing in some illogical things that I take as superstition, whereas I have so far found nothing in the Quran or Islam in general that is illogical.

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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
Do you think that even if something be illogical by our human perception, they can indeed become real when God says "BE"? Do we really have to see a cause/effect logic in everything we witness around us?

Do you believe that the throne of queen Belqis could be shipped within twinkling of an eye? as explained in quran?

What becomes illogical,unthinkable and unimaginable to us now, could well be logical in thousands of years to come, do you believe this?

http://theislamshow.weebly.com/teleolog ... ality.html
What do you think about this?
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
Berrin, yes of course there are concepts beyond human understanding. Allah says in the Quran, for example, that humans cannot begin to imagine what the next life will be like - and therefore all the descriptions are just poor examples/similitudes.

We will be a new form of creation in the next life with new senses - you can't describe colour to a blind person - blue/red etc have no meaning. However you can describe it in terms of a sense they do have - eg touch - 'red is hot' , blue is 'cold' - but these are only substitutes.

When it comes to miracles, yes I do believe God can do as He wills - but my reading of the Quran is that He doesn't do silly things - or things that appear silly to our God-given logic.

Take for example the miracle of the splitting of the moon by the Holy Prophet, pbuh. The people in Arabia who were with the Prophet saw this happen after he pointed at the moon - the people around Arabia who saw the moon split did not know it was a sign from God. Indeed, there is a report from an Indian King in India whose records show that the moon was seen to split in India - IIRC.

In a separate reports, there are recordings in Europe of monks observing a crescent moon splitting.

Taken together, I therefore take this to mean that a natural occurence happened, but it was a miracle never-the-less - because the Prophet was given fore-knowledge of it and pointed to the moon before it happened. (What it may have been is a meteor crashing on the moon, sending a plume of dust out that made it appear that the moon had been split.)

As for the Throne of Bilquis (Sheba) and Solomon - the non-fantastical explanation is that he had a replica made to impress the Queen (just like he had the floor pavings transparent with water flowing underneath). Similarly I take the references to Solomon's army of birds etc to be figurative.

I repeat, this is my personal understanding and at the end of the day these are peripheral to Islam. These are not central beliefs or anything that has relevance to our worship and dealings with others.

I simply take the view that if there is a logical explanation, then why not believe Allah took that path?

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Shafique
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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Sep 06, 2011
You do become a weirdo sometimes, don't you...Why should you limit your understanding of the quran to this day when it has arrived for all times...Obviously there has to be something to be understood from it for future people as sciences and state of mind advances even further than what we are today as conscious capacities..

In that respect I think you're on the wrong path, absolutely doubting what is said by god, that is in very clear language..
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
Hey, if believing in logical explanations and interpretations of the metaphorical verses of the Quran makes me a weirdo in your eyes - so be it.

But let me ask you this question:
"What benefit and what practical aspect of Islam would change (i.e. what action I am currently doing will change) IF I were to believe in talking ants?"

My view is that these are peripheral stories and are there to explain Allah's powers and attributes. I take the meanings from these as parables to explain Allah's attributes - and I believe in all of them.

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?

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Shafique
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
Shafique, you are asserting your freedom of conscience but this freedom is not guaranteed.

The idea that scriptures are symbolic rather than literal is a very old idea. Trouble is that if scriptures are not literally true, that is another way of saying they are false and that upsets some people.

I don't think freedom of conscience is without consequence. If a Muslim can question the Quran, they can question anything.
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
Blueshift - the freedom of conscience is not guaranteed under human rule, no. However the Quran is quite clear that Islam teaches complete freedom of conscience and anyone restricting it is violating God's commandment:

2.256 - 'There is no compulsion in religion/faith..'

As for metaphorical verses of the Quran - these are not central verses which relate to how we should live or worship, but rather relate to issues of either history or trying to explain God's attributes, or the afterlife - metaphors which are required because of our limited understanding.

This, again, is made clear by God in the Quran itself:

3.7
It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


This clarifies that there are specific, clear verses which are the foundation of Islam. It also specifies that there are metaphorical verses. These verses can (and I say, should) be questioned and tested for understanding. Many have multiple meanings.

However, the central and clear verses are there and are ambiguous - eg. pray to God alone etc.

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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
shafique wrote:Hey, if believing in logical explanations and interpretations of the metaphorical verses of the Quran makes me a weirdo in your eyes - so be it.

But let me ask you this question:
"What benefit and what practical aspect of Islam would change (i.e. what action I am currently doing will change) IF I were to believe in talking ants?"

My view is that these are peripheral stories and are there to explain Allah's powers and attributes. I take the meanings from these as parables to explain Allah's attributes - and I believe in all of them.

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?

Cheers,
Shafique



Come on Shafique push yourself hard to tell us What's so metaphorical about the following verses?

27:15 We gave (in the past) knowledge to David and Solomon: And they both said: "Praise be to Allah, Who has favoured us above many of his servants who believe!"
Walaqad atayna dawoodawasulaymana AAilman waqala alhamdulillahi allathee faddalana AAalakatheerin min AAibadihi almu/mineena

27:16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
Wawaritha sulaymanu dawoodawaqala ya ayyuha alnnasuAAullimna mantiqa alttayri waooteenamin kulli shay-in inna hatha lahuwa alfadlualmubeenu

27:17 And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.
Wahushira lisulaymanajunooduhu mina aljinni waal-insi waalttayrifahum yoozaAAoona


27:18 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
Hatta itha ataw AAalawadi alnnamli qalat namlatun ya ayyuhaalnnamlu odkhuloo masakinakum la yahtimannakumsulaymanu wajunooduhu wahum la yashAAuroona

27:19 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
Fatabassama dahikan min qawlihawaqala rabbi awziAAnee an ashkura niAAmataka allateeanAAamta AAalayya waAAala walidayya waan aAAmala salihantardahu waadkhilnee birahmatika fee AAibadikaalssaliheena

27:20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?
Watafaqqada alttayra faqalama liya la ara alhudhuda am kana minaalgha-ibeena

27:21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."
LaoAAaththibannahu AAathabanshadeedan aw laathbahannahu aw laya/tiyannee bisultaninmubeenin

27:22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
Famakatha ghayra baAAeedin faqala ahattubima lam tuhit bihi waji/tuka min saba-inbinaba-in yaqeenin

27:23 "I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.
Innee wajadtu imraatan tamlikuhum waootiyatmin kulli shay-in walaha AAarshun AAatheemun

27:24 "I found her and her people worshipping the sun besides Allah: Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,-
Wajadtuha waqawmaha yasjudoonalilshshamsi min dooni Allahi wazayyana lahumu alshshaytanuaAAmalahum fasaddahum AAani alssabeeli fahumla yahtadoona

27:25 "(Kept them away from the Path), that they should not worship Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what ye hide and what ye reveal.
Alla yasjudoo lillahi allatheeyukhriju alkhabaa fee alssamawati waal-ardiwayaAAlamu ma tukhfoona wama tuAAlinoona

27:26 "Allah!- there is no god but He!- Lord of the Throne Supreme!"
Allahu la ilaha illahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi

27:27 (Solomon) said: "Soon shall we see whether thou hast told the truth or lied!
Qala sananthuru asadaqtaam kunta mina alkathibeena

27:28 "Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them: then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...
Ithhab bikitabee hathafaalqih ilayhim thumma tawalla AAanhum faonthurmatha yarjiAAoona

http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/027.asp

If prophets were taught to understand the language of birds then why can't they understand the language of other animals? including ants and jinn etc.? It all happens when god says "BE" and it happens! it up to God' decision under what circumstances he wills it, isn't it. For goodness shake he created the entire universe, do you think getting his prophets to understand the language of animals are a harder work than creating the entire universe? Your going after Shirk Shafique....You're limiting God's abilities to your metaphorical limited,inadequate understanding.

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?


All Iam saying is that just becouse the entire universe is run through logic (cause/effect),doesn't mean that we can limit what God can do with any of his laws over his creation regardless of his manifest..

In our capacities we are not created to explain everything with our own limited logic, otherwise we would each be a God of our own, wouldn't we? But we know that only him that is "all powerful" not we.., we get power(ilm/knowledge) from him however/whenever and as much as he wants us to perform...

Plus I gave you a link to think and ponder about..
http://theislamshow.weebly.com/teleolog ... ality.html

.
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
Berrin, I can indeed quote from Tafsir about the metaphorical meanings of the verses regarding Solomon.

However, before I do that, I asked you the question concerning these types of verses (and indeed, in my reply to blueshift I quoted 3.7 of the Quran too).

Specifically, please address what practical aspect of Islam I would need to change in my life. If there is none (and I can't think of any) please concede this very important point.

shafique wrote:My view is that these are peripheral stories and are there to explain Allah's powers and attributes. I take the meanings from these as parables to explain Allah's attributes - and I believe in all of them.

So, explain to me why believing in logic is 'the wrong path'. Where does it lead, and where does the alternative path lead?


I do not think God is incapable of doing illogical things - I just believe He chooses not to do illogical things. I do not see this as limiting God's ability in any way.

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Shafique
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
So Shafique is saying why should it matter if he believes in talking ants or not as there is no code of moral behaviour that derives from the literal truth of the existence of talking ants.

So nobody says, "I'm going to do some act because ants spoke, but if ants never spoke I'd do something different." But never the less, I think a person with a literal interpretation of scriptures would have a differnt moral code to a person with symbolic interpretation.

People who believe in the literal truth of scripture seem to do so because unquestioning faith is regarded as a virtue if not an obligation and doubt regarded as a sin. These people are also inclined have unquestioning faith in other authorities, after all, why would someone trust a book unless they had unquestioning faith in the person who told them to trust it. Someone with unquestioning faith is going to believe and act on what they are told to do by the authorities that they trust.

Surely you've seen Muslims writing things like 'we have to believe any consensus of Muslim scholars'. Some Muslims go as far as saying that anyone who doesn't accept an article of Fiqh is an apostate.
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Re: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
Ask shafique if he believes the Koran should be literally followed for punishing women guilty of 'whoredom' to permanent home confinement:

Such of your women as commit indecency, call four of you to witness against them; and if they witness, then detain them in their houses until death takes them or God appoints for them a way.


Koran 4:15

What's permanent home confinement for 'lewd acts' for someone who has already supported hand chopping, crucifixion, lashing and cross amputation ?

As far as taking a non-literal interpretation for certain Koranic verses, then how does one know which verses are literal or figurative? Are *all* the stories of the prophets figurative? What about Allah sending messages to Muhammad? Should we take that figuratively?

If not, then why? What rubric does shafique use to determine - based on the Koran itself - which verse is to be understood literally or figuratively?

Or is shafique simply going by ear - ie., a cafeteria Muslim - and taking a figurative approach to verses that sound absurd to any 21st century person?
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Re: The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Quran Sep 07, 2011
blueshift wrote:So Shafique is saying why should it matter if he believes in talking ants or not as there is no code of moral behaviour that derives from the literal truth of the existence of talking ants.

So nobody says, "I'm going to do some act because ants spoke, but if ants never spoke I'd do something different." But never the less, I think a person with a literal interpretation of scriptures would have a differnt moral code to a person with symbolic interpretation.


Almost a good summary of my point blueshift - just the last point I'd clarify that in these metaphorical verses, EVEN if a person takes them literally, there is no change to their actual practice that derives from them.

Now, I'd like to see how you develop the argument that the literalists (such as eh, when it comes to talking donkeys) have a different moral code from non-literalists. For the Quran, the verses tackling morals are among the 'clear verses' as referred to in 3.7 - so I'm not sure I'd agree to this in terms of Islam.

blueshift wrote:People who believe in the literal truth of scripture seem to do so because unquestioning faith is regarded as a virtue if not an obligation and doubt regarded as a sin. These people are also inclined have unquestioning faith in other authorities, after all, why would someone trust a book unless they had unquestioning faith in the person who told them to trust it. Someone with unquestioning faith is going to believe and act on what they are told to do by the authorities that they trust.


Ahh, but the paradox here is that to have unquestioning faith in the Quran requires you to live by the code in the Quran - including the freedom of conscience and all the postive moral aspects of the Quran.

I mean, when extreme Islamophobes such as Robert Spencer admit that Islam makes the majority of Muslims 'moral and upright' - then it is a valid virtue, surely.
dubai-politics-talk/42m-spent-spread-islamophobia-t47241.html#p385786


blueshift wrote:Surely you've seen Muslims writing things like 'we have to believe any consensus of Muslim scholars'. Some Muslims go as far as saying that anyone who doesn't accept an article of Fiqh is an apostate.


I'd argue that those who abdicate to priests/imams/gurus the understanding of Islam and are told by them to believe in illogical things - are actually going against what is in scripture. Certainly they aren't following Islam.

Islam is indeed full of sects who condemn others. But it is no different from other faith groups- some Christians (perhaps eh) believe the Pope is the anti-christ, others think he is infallible. Some extreme Sunnis believe Shia are unbelievers, and vice versa.

However, judge the Quran for what is in the Quran - and be fair and judge Muslims by the best (or indeed by the moral majority - as per Bob Spencer), not by the worst Muslims.

Cheers,
Shafique
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