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On another thread, one member claimed the s.exism in the Muslim world, that is often the same regardless of culture, has nothing to do with Islam.

Considering there are s.exist and misogynistic teachings in Islam (numerous Youtube videos of clerics abound amply demonstrating this fact), I'm curious how someone could make that claim, particularly since the central text of Islam, the Koran, contains 7th century views on women that have no place in this or the previous (and the previous) century.

In one such passage, the Koran explicitly allows the enslavement of female captives of war ("spoils of war") and permits males to touch them as they would their wives (in other words, they are their s.ex slaves):

Koran 33:50 wrote:O Prophet, We have made lawful for thee thy wives whom thou hast given their wages and what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee, and the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee, and any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers -- We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own -- that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

Here is the verse again with just the highlighted portion:

We have made lawful what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee. We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own.

So:
1: "What thy right hand owns" are slaves taken from female prisoners of war - "spoils of war"
2: The verse explicitly says "what thy right hand owns" are lawful
3: "What thy right hand owns" - who are "lawful" - as can be touched one can touch a wife
(Therefore: the female captives who are now slaves are not the wives of the master)

For most of us with a 21st century mindset, enslaving female captives and turning them into concubines is extraordinarily backward and beyond any doubt s.exist and misogynist.

Based on this, and the prevalence of the type of mindset that would agree with this verse in much of the world, how can anyone claim that s.exism and misogynism in the Muslim/Arab world is not connected in any way to Islam?

No, God's commandments about women in the Quran aren't misogynistic.

eh and I have started this discussion a few times in the past, but he keeps running away from addressing the issues:
philosophy-dubai/biblical-quranic-verses-women-t40717.html

In contrast with the Quranic teachings on women (discussed ad nauseum in other threads) and the Biblical misogynism is that Christian Biblical scholars conclude that the verses in the Bible were added by Misogynistic Churchmen:

Father Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, O.P.:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued..., but a post-Pauline interpolation.... Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and probably stem from the same circle.
New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J, and Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm., Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1990, pages 811-812)

philosophy-dubai/for-contradictions-t37492.html#p307744

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:No, God's commandments about women in the Quran aren't misogynistic.

I don't know if you've ever gone to school or not, but an explanation containing more than a circular argument is required if you want to justify your belief.

How is enslaving female war captives and owning them as s.ex slaves not s.exist/misogynistic?

Thanks for sharing your fantasies about my education.

I suggest you read the previous threads and think about tackling the issues you keep ducking about the misogyny in the inserted verses of the Bible. Your downfall remains your continuing belief that anti-Muslim bloggers' view of Islam is correct.

Cheers,

Shafique

When I look at what so many religious texts have said about the supposed differences between men and women and the different rules that apply to each, I can conclude that most religious texts including the Quran are misogynistic to some extent.

shafique wrote:Thanks for sharing your fantasies about my education.

People in the 21st century see enslaving females and turning them into concubines as s.exist/misogynist.

I don't suppose you have a response to this fact.

My response about God's instructions on how to treat prisoners of war, women in general and indeed the fact that Islam does not condone s.ex outside of marriage, paedophillia or forced marriages has been amply covered in other threads.

None of God's revelations in the Quran consitute misogyny.

What you have yet to address, though, is the insertion of misogynistic verses into the Bible by men who did actually hate women.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:None of God's revelations in the Quran consitute misogyny.

That's a matter of opinion. Wife beating constitutes misogyny for me, not for you.

Again, God's instructions contained in that particular verse have been discussed at length too. You shouldn't trust bloggers that tell you God condones wife beating.

Let's see if eh ever gets round to addressing the insertion of misogynistic verses into the Bible by men who hated women.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:None of God's revelations in the Quran consitute misogyny.

Righto - we get that you rely on circular reasoning.

For people inhabiting the 21st century, making women concubines is s.exist/misogynistic.

evitav wrote:

shafique wrote:None of God's revelations in the Quran consitute misogyny.

That's a matter of opinion. Wife beating constitutes misogyny for me, not for you.

The verse's problems don't start where husbands may hit their wives:

• Men are superior to women
• Men may treat their wives like children
• Men may beat their wives if they suspect disobedience

There isn't anything more misogynistic than that verse.

And, indeed, I believe shafique's last argument regarding this misogynistic verse was that men wouldn't really follow it literally.

That was after he was claiming that a verse on wife beating would lower the incidence of wife beating.

Thanks for your views on Islam. The verse has been discussed many times before and Muslims have explained why God's instructions aren't actually misogynistic, and why what anti-Islam bloggers say Islam teaches is far from reality. You having to resort to spinning the explanations of God's instructions shows that there's no need to discuss further with you (as its all been explained already, and you insist your fantasy interpretations are true).

What is interesting is that the real (rather than imaginary) misogyny of the men who inserted anti-Women verses into the Bible is not discussed by you.

Cheers,
Shafique

I didn't know enslaving females and turning them into concubines wasn't s.exist/misogynistic.

Interesting view you have.

There's a lot that you choose not to know - and a lot of weird things you do believe in, not least the anti-Muslim blogger fantasies about Islam.

What remains interesting is that the real (rather than imaginary) misogyny of the men who inserted anti-Women verses into the Bible is not discussed by you.

But then again, it is not surprising you are confused about God's commandments in the Quran - you have a long list of Biblical confusions that you need to work on.
philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for your view, but I have not quoted bloggers or Ahmadi missionary websites.

I am simply quoting the Koran where it permits men to enslave women and use them as concubines.

I am asking how the passage is not s.exist/misogynistic when people with 21st mindsets clearly see it as such.

It is your anti-Muslim blogger interpretation of Islamic teaching that is wrong - as explained to you many times before. Islam doesn't allow s.ex outside marriage, paedophillia or forced marriages - and the verses about God's instructions for prisoners of war are not misogynistic.

So, rather than go over verses already discussed and explained, why not tackle the real misogyny in the inserted verses of the Bible?

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:Islam doesn't allow s.ex outside marriage

So why not challenge me to find scholars, imams and clerics who say concubinage is allowed in Islam?

shafique wrote:and the verses about God's instructions for prisoners of war are not misogynistic.

Thanks for your view, enslaving female prisoners of war and turning them into concubines is misogynistic by 21st century standards.

I think the difference here is that we're making value judgments using different standards, with you going by 7th century barbarism.



O Prophet, We have made lawful for thee thy wives whom thou hast given their wages and what thy right hand owns, spoils of war that God has given thee, and the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee, and any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers -- We know what We have imposed upon them touching their wives and what their right hands own -- that there may be no fault in thee; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

All discussed and debated ad nauseum before. Your blogger-version of Islam is not real.

So, rather than go over verses already discussed and explained, why not tackle the real misogyny in the inserted verses of the Bible?

Cheers,
Shafique

LoL. Like turning female "war booty" into concubines isn't misogyny.

Let me leave you with the still unanswered issues - which I'm sure you will continue to ignore. (All your 'blogger-only views on Islam' points have been answered in previous threads):

What remains interesting is that the real (rather than imaginary) misogyny of the men who inserted anti-Women verses into the Bible is not discussed by you.

But then again, it is not surprising you are confused about God's commandments in the Quran - you have a long list of Biblical confusions that you need to work on.
philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html

You may now have the final word on this thread..

Cheers,
Shafique

I couldn't see in any post in this thread an attempt by you to address how enslaving women and making them concubines is not s.exist/misogynistic.

I suppose a religious crazy never needs to rationalize their beliefs; repeating a belief in an infinite loop is satisfactory mental stimulation.