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Most of Europe managed ok during 1939-45

Dubai Knight wrote:This is a very sad comment on society as a whole. The fact that a boy of this age was not able to be controlled by his parents or his school and insisted on playing truant to be a member of a mob rather than achieve a life and an education. They say the real soldiers are those who fight with the mind and diplomacy rather than the gun and the bullet.

Mate .. i understand that all this is coming from your good heart... and clean intentions

Well DK i aagree and disagree, Yes its sad mate. but i dont believe that education could take this guy anywhere since i know many of the well educated people there who became nothing but a pain for the socity and them selves.

Its not about controlling this boy.. its not about education or politics.. its not about age.. this boy was much older and braver than a boy.. i think i shouldnt be calling him a boy any more.. he realized what he should do.. and did what educated adults are incapable to do.. not because they are disabled, but becuase of the certificates that they are holding now made them think in a goofy way..

Normally edcuated ppl like to be in fancy places suited and booted..becuase whether we no it or not.. this is what education means to them.. they would clame that policy and bla bla will solve the issues.. but it never did .. and it never would.. its the best way to Fool people on TVs and achieve goals behind closed doors... and the best way to fool and convince our selves that we should discuss only..because such people are so cuards to get involve by spending money or actual effort.

Perhaps if he had not chosen to feed his adrenaline rush and concentraterd on his studies, he would heve been the next peacekeeper or political leader of his people? Instead he chose to provoke an already provoked man with a gun.

You can see what its happening to the Gov. which was elected by the palisteniane nation .. and how the entire world trun against them becuase they are an entitiy with a REAL free-well.

unfortuantly DK, this is what we have been poisend with all the time.. peace talks and crap and stuff.. we dont know thats its the new way of humelation and compremise on our rights.. the rights which we have since before we know its ours.. real peacekeepers were eleminated or at least.. they will reach no where.

I refuse to believe that, at his age, he really knew what he was doing and to him it was all still just a big game. I am appalled also at the confessions of the parents to state that they beat the boy 'black and blue'. What purpose did this serve? He was terrified of going home and to him it probably seemed that dodging bullets and throwing rocks was far more preferable to being at home being abused.

Hehehe.. well dude.. when we beat a kid it doesnt mean that we BEAT the kid..

and if he is terrified of going home... he will go and stand in front of a tank Shoeless!! well.. i dont think that has to do with a game or something else.... but its all has to do how we define our position in front of our selves.. and define our cases accordingly.. and this "man" was in that position..

I feel sorry for the parents, the family, even the soldiers faced with the dilemma of a child intent on causing as much damage and harm to them as possible...but most of all I feel sorry for the boy who, contrary to popular myth may well be forgotton by the masses sooner than you think. Within a few years he will only be remembered by his families and a small news archive...

dilemma!! i dont think a kid throwing stones on a tank which is known as the world's most armored tank should be shot in the neck mate.. maybe i think u should read the coming story..


By the way.. why no west media broadcasted this ever!!!

Ok. I'll address two points in one:

First: MS- I did address the 'illegal occupation'. That is something outside yours, mine and many millions of other people's control. The situation in Palestine was not started yesterday, it was created in 1945 and if it had not been there, it would have been elsewhere. Hitler and Goebbels had orignally planned to turn the whole of the island of Madagascar into a giant concentration camp and move the entire Jewish population of Europe (some 6 million souls!) to an island with an extremely delicate ecostructure to start with and just barricade them in to starve or survive at their own choice! He then planned to help the process along with the addition of a few nasty biochemical weapons. Read the excellent and thorough biographies of Adolf Hitler by both John Toland and Ian Kershaw.

After the Jews it would have been the Arabian nations and then the Indian Nations and the African until he had 'ethnically cleansed' the world to his ideal. Once one occupation is removed, the natural cycle of events leaves a vacuum that creates another. We were not even born when the political decisions to create 'Palestine' and 'Israel' were made. Good or bad, we are just living as witnesses to the consequences.

I don't condone the occupation of any sovereign state by another, however sitting here and discussing it on this forum will not solve it. the situation is sad, but what do you expect to change by making noise here? It will also not bring that poor unfortunate boy back. The most precious thing we have is life, strip away all the trappings of society and politics and religion and that is what it boils down to. Sentient beings, surviving. We must protect that at all costs.

Second: Intimacy.

It is not so much the point about the boys eduation or not, the fact is he had the POTENTIAL to choose a non violent future. In the words of Mark Renton: Choose Life!

That he chose instead to face down a heavily armoured tank with a rock, does not show any particularly intelligent action, merely one of frustrated defiance. Returning to the Nazi simile, when Germany annexed Poland in 1939, the Wehrmacht was the most technologically superior and well armed fighting force on the planet. The Poles had nothing to defend themselves with apart from raw courage and they led cavalry charges with lances against tanks and armoured cars! Needless to say, the Blitzkreig was unstoppable.

Reading the full story again, he was not neccessarily shot by the occupants of the tank, but received a bullet wound to the neck shortly after the photo was taken. In a firefight situation there is ordnance flying around everywhere, he could have taken cover, but unfortunately he and a bullet happened to co-incide at the same point in space and time. There is no independent report here if there was any type of return fire being aimed at the Iraeli troops? We do not know the real facts but everyone is willing to condemn based on a one sided report. There is no 'Zionistic' journalists point of view of the incident, so we are seeing a totally one sided picture.

As I said to MS in the previous post, you are therefore unwilling victims of a propaganda issue.

I will give you a simple parallel from a TV advertisment created for a London newspaper that prided itself on open and honest reportage. The first scene is of a sweet little lady walking down the street with her purse in her hand. The next scene, we see a typical punk running at top speed towards her and looking over his shoulder. It cuts to a policeman running at full speed appearingly after the punk. At that point it freezes and asks the question: What do you read into this scene? The punk is being chased by the law because he is stereotyped as being a 'criminal'? He is looking over his shoulder to avoid the policeman? The law is therefore going to catch him before he can snatch the little old ladies purse?

That was the view they created. That was how people were supposed to see it.

They then unfroze the images and panned back and you find that the punk is actually running behind the policeman and is looking back at a runaway truck coming down the road towards them...with failed brakes! The punk scoops the little old lady and the policeman out of the way in the nick of time and saves both their lives. How a story is portrayed depends entirely on the point of view of the viewer and the media that show it.

Both sides of the media fence are attempting to propagandise their particular political stance. It is what they are paid to do!

So my final summary:
Don't believe the things you see and read in the press from either side of the fence! It is all propaganda of one sort or another. Be assured, Elvis DID assasinate JFK...I read it in a newspaper, so it must be true!

Knight

and ET did go home, i read it in The Sun

Dubai Knight wrote:The situation in Palestine was not started yesterday, it was created in 1945

Er, I thought David "invaded" the "promised land" of Canaan around 1200 BC. One could argue it started then.

Or with the Balfour treaty in 1917?

But then there was the Byzantium Empire in there somewhere too. And the Crusades, then Saladin kicked them out. Where do you draw the line and say prior claims are invalid?

That he chose instead to face down a heavily armoured tank with a rock, does not show any particularly intelligent action, merely one of frustrated defiance.

Quite.

Knight, occupation of Gaza, the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal. This is a simple and straightforward fact. there are a number of UN resolutions that were never reinforced. A solution based on ending the occupation of these territorries together with fairly addressing the refugees' rights shall be attainable. This is not as complicated as you pictured it. I'm only going back to 1967!

Again, the propaganda argument is really in your imagination only. The problem is real, and in the hearts and minds of Millions of people.

MS wrote:Knight, occupation of Gaza, the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal. This is a simple and straightforward fact. there are a number of UN resolutions that were never reinforced. A solution based on ending the occupation of these territorries together with fairly addressing the refugees' rights shall be attainable. This is not as complicated as you pictured it. I'm only going back to 1967!

Gaza is not occupied anymore.

Resolution 242 (& 338) attempted to address the occupation and was recognized as legitimate but implementation was difficult - Israel wants Arab states to withdraw declaration of war first and Arab states want Israel to withdraw first. I suppose I'm over-simplifying it there. But who's going to enforce the resolutions anyway? The UN isn't an army or police force.

Resolution 446 declared Israeli settlements illegal but again, who's going to enforce it?

It's simple only if you look at it from one side.

MS wrote:Knight, occupation of Gaza, the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal. This is a simple and straightforward fact. there are a number of UN resolutions that were never reinforced. A solution based on ending the occupation of these territorries together with fairly addressing the refugees' rights shall be attainable. This is not as complicated as you pictured it. I'm only going back to 1967!

Again, the propaganda argument is really in your imagination only. The problem is real, and in the hearts and minds of Millions of people.

If the UN instigated resolutions, then they would have been acted upon and re-inforced by the UN, backed up by international troops and a peacekeeping force. You cannot tell me that Israel is invisible to the UN? My reference to the situation starting in 1945 refers specifically to setting up of the Jewish State of Israel by the Allies in response to the treatment the Jewish community had received under the Nazis. The decision was flawed, but it is not one that you or I have any control over.

You are propagandised...trust me!

Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:

MS wrote:Knight, occupation of Gaza, the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal. This is a simple and straightforward fact. there are a number of UN resolutions that were never reinforced. A solution based on ending the occupation of these territorries together with fairly addressing the refugees' rights shall be attainable. This is not as complicated as you pictured it. I'm only going back to 1967!

Again, the propaganda argument is really in your imagination only. The problem is real, and in the hearts and minds of Millions of people.

If the UN instigated resolutions, then they would have been acted upon and re-inforced by the UN, backed up by international troops and a peacekeeping force. You cannot tell me that Israel is invisible to the UN? My reference to the situation starting in 1945 refers specifically to setting up of the Jewish State of Israel by the Allies in response to the treatment the Jewish community had received under the Nazis. The decision was flawed, but it is not one that you or I have any control over.

You are propagandised...trust me!

Knight

Knight...Since its the Europeans who have mitreated the Jews in WW2, why are Palastinians asked to give up their land for people who they have never wronged? If Europeans were not looking to create a conflict for the Future, why did they setup Isreal in Middle east instead of giving Isreal land in Europe..especially taken land away from the Austrian and Germans who perpetrated the crimes against the Jews?

About 80% of the Jews in Palastine are immigrant Zoinist Jews who migrated from Europe after WW2...

Dubai Knight wrote:If the UN instigated resolutions, then they would have been acted upon and re-inforced by the UN, backed up by international troops and a peacekeeping force.

Hah hah. This is the UN we're talking about .

Lionheart wrote:why are Palastinians asked to give up their land for people who they have never wronged? If Europeans were not looking to create a conflict for the Future, why did they setup Isreal in Middle east instead of giving Isreal land in Europe

Because historically, Jewish people have always considered Palestine to be their homeland.

This conflict will continue until one side is completly wiped out in a fight, or until the opposing sides both decide it's more important to live together amicably than to be right. Over two thousand years of history in that region indicates neither of those options is likely to happen anytime soon.

Exactly Sharewadi. I have no idea why some people seem to think that Jewish people just picked Palestine out of a hat.

sharewadi wrote: e]

Because historically, Jewish people have always considered Palestine to be their homeland.

Thanks for highlighting that they CONSIDERED but it is NOT..

So muslims land at one point of time expanded from the atlantic ocean west (including morrocco and spain) till india (included) east...

So if we "considered this is our land... will we have it???

Question: "What is the land that God promised to Israel?"

Answer: In regards to the land that God has promised Israel, Genesis 15:18 declares, "To your descendants (Abraham's) I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates." God later confirms this promise to Abraham's son Isaac, and Isaac's son Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel). When the Israelites were about to invade the promised land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, "Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates — all the Hittite country — to the Great Sea on the west."

With Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4 in mind, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile river in Egypt to Lebanon (North to South) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (West to East). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised.

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazin ... sse91.html

Excellent post Chocs

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Excuse me MS

Chocs has shown no arrogance, she is merely quoting from "the Bible"

Do you have issue with the Holy Bible ??

..

So can you please give us quotes from the Quoran, where it states the contradiction to the Bible in terms of the "promised land" please MS.

Your edited bullshit post was noted MS.

If you want to conduct yourself in here with serious debate, do so politely please.

A serious debate is not possible with you. Whenever I see a good point (e.g., a previous point by Knight) I am able to say I agree with that.

Your arrogance, however, does not allow you to do so. Don't call this a serious debate.

And don't talk about conducting oneself!

I've edited my other posts too, because it's not worth posting.

MS wrote:I've edited my other posts too, because it's not worth posting.

MS, you have to accept that there are 2 sides to every argument or debate, these should be viewed objectively and every person is entitled to their opinion and point of view, however there is a decorum required and the debate should be carried out in a civilised and intelligent manner. Abuse and rudeness are not neccessary.

If you disagree with a point, then put forward a sensible and measured argument to that effect rather than ranting aimlessly. This is the reason we have Mods on the forum. If you disagree, then take the issue to Fight Club.

In response to Lionhearts post, the lands in question were actually disputed long before the Islamic faith was born. (I refer to Chocs quotation from the bible) and were originally a part of the lands of King David, of the line of Soloman and Abraham, an interesting reason as to why Jesus was originally persecuted by the Romans, who occupied the region at the time of his birth, as he was supposed to be of 'the line of David' and therefore consituted a political threat to their occupancy and the stability of the area.

The political disputes continue to this day although the number of independent claimants has merely increased.

Knight

MS wrote:I've edited my other posts too, because it's not worth posting.

I'll take it you are unable to answer or justify any points made re the promised land then MS. No surprises there then

MS - you also need to look up the meaning of the word arrogance - a clue, it does not mean someone who disagrees.

"Hu said to me, 'Son of Adam, go, get you to the house of Yisra'el, and speak with My Words to them. For you are not sent to a people of a strange speech and of a hard language, but to the house of Yisra'el; not to many peoples of a strange speech and of a hard language, whose words you can not understand. Surely, if I sent you to them, they would listen to you. But the House of Yisra'el will not listen to you; for they will not listen to Me: for all the House of Yisra'el are of hard forehead and of a stiff heart. Behold, I have made your face hard against their faces, and your forehead hard against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made your forehead: don't be afraid of them, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they are a rebellious House.' Moreover Hu said to me, 'Son of Adam, all My Words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears. Go, get you to them of the captivity, to the children of your people, and speak to them, and tell them, Thus says the YHWH-Elohim; whether they will hear, or whether they will refuse to listen.'" Yechezkel (Ezekiel) 3:4-11

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Ever Merciful. In the Name of As-Salaam, the Peace, the Shalom, the Lord of Peace and Equanimity, even-handedness and indiscrimination. In the Name of the All-Powerful Most High God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords and Chief of Chieftains. May those who have ears to hear and eyes to see bear Witness to what the Spirit proclaims to the Children of Adam (as), the 72 nations of the world.



In light of the recent developments in the Middle East, we find it imperative to reiterate the official position of the Ahl-i Allah concerning the Zionist movement and the so-called State of Israel. First and foremost, it must be emphasized that no matter how much the power elite would like to believe otherwise, Islam is absolutely not anti-Jew or anti-Semitic. The Prophet Muhammad (sal) said in his final sermon:

"There are neither races nor tribes in Islam. A Jew has no superiority over an Arab, neither is one who is black superior to one who is white, except by deed."

Furthermore, while the media of this system of Dajjal (Anti-Christ) would like to imagine that both Islam and those who actively oppose Zionism are "Anti-Semitic," it must be reminded that Arabs (and more specifically, Palestinians) - while making up only a small percentage of the Islamic global community - are Semitic peoples themselves (in that they are descended from Shem, the son of Noah). So, while opponents of Zionism are often pigeonholed as "anti-Semitic" this assertion is in fact nothing more than a political boogie-man term used to trigger an autonomic subconscious preconditioning against certain societal forces that the media - and the power elite that controls them - wishes to sway public opinion against. Beyond that, many Muslims such as myself, both past and present, are Hebrew in ethnicity. To the Muslim, notions of race or ethnicity are absolutely not a factor in our opposition to Zionism.

The People of Allah do not advocate the indiscriminant violence against our Hebrew brothers and sisters. That is, we do not believe that oppressive acts perpetrated by various Hebrew peoples make all Hebrew peoples guilty of said acts (and thus deserving of retribution for those criminal acts). However, with that said, we also realize that the controlled media seems only to report on the isolated acts of so-called "Muslim violence" enacted very rarely in an indiscriminant manner. While at the same time the illegitimate so-called state of Israel is bulldozing houses, sending civilians to detention camps, murdering innocent men, women and children, and now bombing and shooting missiles at a people; who the Torah tells us are the Hebrews' own brothers and sisters. All the while these crimes go unreported, justified and sugar-coated by the media of this Babylon system. Furthermore, while these crimes have continued for so long, the United Nations has stood by, not only in complicity to them, but also as an active participant in carrying them out. Thus, once again proving that the United Nations is nothing more than a conglomerate of Nations who have sold their collective soul to Shaiytan and now serve governing roles only in the capacity as the many heads of the Beast.

Biblically or Qur'anically, no race or culture is given special status for their background (as modern day apostate Jews believe they are). It is only faith and deeds rooted in faith that gives one Salvation and the status of the Children of Light. In order that our stance be clearly and more fully understood, a brief historical review of the situation at hand in the land of Palestine is necessary.



Nearly a century ago some self-styled Jewish leaders started to propagate nationalistic ideas within the Jewish world community. This, slowly but surely, led to the formation of a world-wide Zionist movement.

In the earlier days of Zionist propaganda the concept was vehemently denounced by the Rabbinical authorities of the time as being diametrically opposed to the Faith of the Torah. One of the basic tenets of the Jewish faith is that since Divine Will has placed the Hebrew people in exile, we are forbidden to have any nationalistic aspirations. We must understand the reasoning behind this. For if a people are to realize their potential as the Children of Adam (as) living in SUBMISSION to Divine Will, then it is imperative we cut away all blood ties, and attachment to race and nationalism. All Hebrews are bound by Divine Will to accept the yoke of the diaspora and live in peace and harmony within the nations in which the Divine Destiny (Al-Qadar), has placed us (so long as those nations themselves are not oppressive).

However, when the demand for a Jewish state became insistent, the opposition of the Rabbi's of the day grew in intensity. They declared for the whole world to know that the Jewish people did not want and are forbidden to have a state before the advent of what is called "the Messianic Era." This Truth is in no way altered even by the de-facto establishment of the so-called state of Israel.

The growth and promulgation of Zionism was fostered in no small part by the genocide of the Nazi Holocaust, wherein the majority of the opponents to Zionism were murdered in the name of racial superiority and ethnic cleansing. Ironically, the atrocities which occurred under the Nazi persecution triggered longing for national stability in the remaining Jewish community that made many susceptible for the propagandizing of Zionistic colonialism.

In addition to the fundamental ideological transgression that is Zionism, this so-called State of Israel has consistently indulged in activities which constitute a breach of Jewish religious beliefs. Complete communities are forced to expose their children to an atheistic education, autopsies are performed against the wishes of the deceased and their relatives; the sanctity of the resting places of ancient sages are being uprooted and violated by so-called archaeologists under the full auspices of the Zionist government.

From all the above it follows that the Zionist organizations and the State of Israel can in no way claim that they represent the world of Judaism and the Hebrew people in general. All of the belligerent acts perpetuated by the State of Israel are against the Hebrew Divine law of the Torah and thus completely foreign and repulsive to any and all practicing Jews.

"We participate together with the Palestinian people in their anguish and suffering. We feel their intense pain and frustration resulting from the cruel oppression they are enduring under the brutal Zionist occupation of their Palestinian homeland. This is especially so since we profoundly understand the overwhelming justice of their right to self-determination and statehood in their beloved Palestine. A yearning that burns fervently to be free and sovereign in their native land. The legitimacy of the Palestinian cause does not conflict with Judaism and Torah.

"It warms our hearts with nostalgia to recall those happy days of yore not too long ago when Jew and Arab lived in one land together in brotherly peaceful co-existence before the appearance of Zionism and the subsequent influx of nationalist militant political activists - an entirely new breed of pioneer settlers - who with every wicked form of guile and deceit as well as overt coercion sought to expel the indigenous Palestinian population and illegally expropriate their property." - Orthodox Jews Against Zionism



Recent events in the Holy Land have plunged Judaism worldwide into unprecedented soul searching. The conflicts to which the creation of the State of Israel gave birth continue to plague Jew and non-Jew alike. Tragically, no end appears to be in sight. Various and contradictory solutions have been offered for the current travails.

However, all the solutions offered in so-called mainstream sources have failed. It is our belief that they are inherently doomed to fail, for all of them make one fatal assumption. They are founded upon the false notion that the State of Israel must exist. Furthermore, in contrast to the plain evidence of history, they see its existence as a positive development for the Jewish people. This is a fundamentally wrong notion that must be opposed by all true Hebrews and Muslims alike.

The People of Allah offer a real alternative to this herd-like mentality which has produced fifty years of war and suffering for both Jew and Arab. We affirm the simple belief, once universally held amongst Torah believing Jews, that Jewish sovereignty over the Holy Land before mankind's final redemption is wrong. It is wrong spiritually because it denies that the Jewish exile is a metaphysical state that can only be altered by the practice of our ancestral faith. The Faith of Adam (as), the Faith of Abraham (as), the Faith of Moses (as). The Faith of SUBMISSION to the Divine Will.

Furthermore, Zionism has proven itself wrong in the manifest realm because it has consistently led to war, oppression of other peoples and the general exacerbation of anti-Semitism throughout the world. But it is said that history is written by its victors. Zionism - by which we mean not the love of Zion shared by all believing Jews but political and military machinations to grab the Holy Land before the Lord Most High chooses to redeem all of mankind through the "Mashiach" - wields tremendous power over world opinion. All who question its dogmas are subjected to severe blacklisting and, at times, life threatening terror.

This near total historical censorship has blinded both Jew and non-Jew in our era to the universal Torah opposition to Zionism up to 1948. In all schools of European Judaism - ranging from the writings of German Orthodox leader Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch to the Lithuanian perspective found in the works of Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman to the Chasidic views of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Reb Shalom Dov Ber Schneerson - we find scathing critiques of Zionism.

Intimidation cannot forever suppress truth. Zionism is bankrupt. Its Ieaders war with each other as well as with the Muslim world and the very God that Jews claim to worship. With a near hysterical obstinacy they demand that America finance and support their failed enterprise.

The hour of Zionism is passed. Its victims wander about searching in its darkness for solutions. But no answers will be found there. The Jewish "problem" which Herzel set about "solving" century ago cannot be solved by arms and politics. The Hebrew exile and the sufferings of all humanity are contingent upon repentance and good deeds. That is the only Jewish agenda worthy of the name. A Name that is only SUBMISSION to the Will of the Most High, YHWH-Elohenu.

"It is a tremendous shame and embarrassment for the entire genuine Jewish people that these horrible deeds were perpetrated using the name Israel. Zionist atheists have absolutely nothing to do with the Jewish people because a Jew can only be one who believes firmly in the Creator and His Torah. These renegade traitors have usurped that hallowed and cherished appellation Yisroel and grafted it upon their monstrosity. It is an ersatz. Actually they have neither Jews nor Israel (Yisroel). The Zionist Dogma to lift oneself out of the exile is diametrically opposed to Torah and belief in G-d and can never be reconciled with Judaism. It is a manifestation of the most insidious pernicious atheism and heresy, an unparalleled defection from the Torah hitherto unheard of augmenting enmity and animosity." - Orthodox Jews Against Zionism



"'The Gates of Zion' are the 'openings of the World.' A gate is nothing other than an opening. We thus say 'Open for us the Gates of Mercy.' God said: I love the 'Gates of Zion' when they are open. Why? Because they are on the side of evil. But when Israel does good before God and are worthy that good be opened for them, then God loves them "more than all the dwellings of Jacob. [The dwellings of Jacob] are all Shalom (Peace) as it is written (Genesis 25:27) 'Jacob was simple man, dwelling in tents.' " - Rabbi Amorai, Sefer HaBahir 38

You who call profess to be the children of Isaac (as). You who call Abraham (as) you father. You sons and daughters of Jacob (as); with what audacity do you make your claims to speak in The Name and bear the Seal of Hu's Chosen People? For as it is written:

"If Abraham did not do deeds of kindness, then he would not have been worthy of the Attribute of Truth. Jacob would not have been worthy of the Attribute of Truth." Yochanan Ben Zachariah, Sefer HaBahir 135

Your blood will not save your soul. Your lineage will not cover over your iniquities. No man is given authority to trample upon the rights of his brother. No people may displace natives of a land that they covet. Holocaust against one people does not give license for once victims to oppress their brethren.

To you who profess the religion of the Torah, know that the exile from the Holy Land is the result of a Divine decree, recorded in the Talmudic "Three Oaths" (Kesubos 111a) which prohibit the Hebrew people to travel en masse to the Holy Land, rebel against the other nations for the purpose of instituting a state of Zion therein, or in any way seek to hasten the Messianic process by the worldly means.

The land of Israel was given to us according to YHWH's Perfect and Holy Will, and when the sins of the Hebrew people accumulated those same were exiled from it - with the commandment that neither they, nor their ancestors should attempt to defy the Divine Will and return to a state of self-rule until the Holy Mashiach came and we recognized his appearance. This exile is in essence a spiritual state that cannot and (as the Talmud teaches), must not be remedied by temporal means. Accordingly, the Jewish people have no "claim" to the Holy Land at present. They have no right to conquer or to rule over it.

Clearly, the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was in no way a fulfillment of the Jewish people's millennial long yearning for redemption. It was a bizarre, secularist substitute for that redemption. The doctrine of constantly leading the Jewish people into confrontations with other nations is the dogma of Zionism not of the Holy Torah. We are commanded by YHWH-Elohenu to live in dignity and piety wherever Providence has so ordained.

Therefore, the People of Allah, and all Torah abiding Jews and Muslims alike, declare that the Zionist State of Israel is not the legitimate representative of the Hebrew people or the people of our Lord Most High. Our position on the ceding of land is quite simple; any Jewish sovereignty over the Holy Land before the Messianic Era is sinful and sure to lead to tragedy. And it is certainly an absurd and damnable offense to sacrifice even one human life for this illegitimate state.

But you, O Children of Yaqub (as), are like the Children of Cain, the Children of Esau. You do not merit The Mercy, nor do you retain the Barakah (Divine Blessing), of the Most High. You are they who have rejected the Torah, yet blaspheme the Name among the nations. By what merit do you profess that you have been chosen? It was your ancestors who were chosen - your ancestors who were chosen by merit.

For no one is chosen by race of tribe. No one gains favor in the eyes of YHWH by culture or ethnic affiliation. Are you now so blind as those who caste your ancestors into ovens in the lands of Cain? Would you now impose the same fate upon your own brethren; the children of Ishmael (as)?

As it is written (Micah 7:20) "You give Truth to Jacob" Truth is identical with Peace, as it is written (Esther 9:30) "Words of Peace and Truth" It is likewise written (2 Kings 20:19) "For Peace and Truth will be in my days."

But you, O Israel! Where is your Peace in these times? Peace has set upon your nation as the sun sets beyond the horizon and casts the land into darkness. Were you to merit the Attribute of Truth - invested in Abraham (as) - then you would taste Peace. But you have not and thus you will not.

It is written (Genesis 18:17) "Shall I then cover from Abraham what I am doing? Abraham is becoming a great mighty Nation, and all the Nations of the Earth will be blessed through him."

And indeed this Promise has come True just as foretold. For as the Qur'an accurately says, Abraham (as) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, he was one who lived in SUBMISSION to the Will of Allah; the One and Only God of all Faiths and traditions. For no Prophet came in the name of any God but the One and Only God. And no Prophet spoke of any religion but SUBMISSION to the One and Only God.

"We believe in Allah, and what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and the Tribes, and in what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord. We make no difference between them." Qur'an, Sura 2:136

"In Truth He sent down to you 'The Book,' which confirmed those which proceed it: For Hu has sent down the Torah, the Gospel, aforetime, as man's Guidance; and now Hu has sent down the Furqan." Qur'an, Sura 3:3

Abraham (as) was not promised that he would give birth to a "master race." These are the notions of Cain. These are the notions of the one who has kidnapped and held our people captive in Babylon in years past. These are the notions of the infidels who murdered so many in the lands of Cain less than a century ago. Neither the Torah nor YHWH-Allah teaches of a "master race." Any who holds to this notion has learned it from their master, the Father of Lies.

The Name "Yisrael" stems etymologically from two root words; Yassar and El. Yassar means, "to follow Straight" or to "return Straight" and "El" of course is the Name of Divinity. In this context, these two words taken together mean "those who follow the Straight Path to the Divine." This of course is an inward Path, a Path that our ancient ancestors knew as "Israel."

When the Holy Prophet Moses (as) lead the 12 Tribes out of Captivity and Constriction in Egypt, he united them under the banner of this Path of SUBMISSION alone. He did not teach "Judaism" nor did he teach "Christianity." He taught that we as God's People are to SUBMIT to Hu's Law, or Torah and in so doing, "return Straight to El." When we could do this, then and only then would we be able to recognize the Mashiach.

Yet those who claim to be "Yassar-El" today are pillaging, murdering innocent men and children, extorting, and taking money from truly anti-Semitic people in controlling circles of power. They are pulling fathers off of their sons only to drive bullets into the tiny body of a helpless child. They are throwing good men out of buildings and making jokes openly about the murder they commit. They parade around with M-16's and bulldoze houses. They shoot innocents and displace families to camps not unlike those that our ancestors were held in less than a century ago. Yet they condemn and murder mere children for picking up stones in resistance to their tyranny. They are like the Philistines condemning the young David (as) for picking up his smooth stones in resistance to the wickedness of those who would terrorize the innocent for their own imagined gain.

These are the same who have murdered their own brother! Like Cain, they were called upon by YHWH-Allah to offer up a sacrifice. Like Abel, the Children of Islam have replied "Here YHWH-Allah, here is my offering of purity and devotion. I offer only to live in SUBMISSION to your Torah." Like the Holy Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo (peace be upon them all), they allowed their ego-selves to be caste into the furnaces of Babylon, offering no sacrifice of blood and flesh, only to be in the presence of the Mashiach-Met'at'ron and emerge from the flame unscathed.

And because of that, their offering was accepted. But like Cain, the Children of Isaac (as) have looked with jealousy at the favor shown by YHWH to their Brethren. Like Cain you have plotted and planned with the rejected one to murder your brother.

You, O Children of Isaac (as), have said to your Elohim, "We are the offspring of Jacob. We are the descendants of those who merited Truth. We are the offspring of those whom you chose for your Holy Work, so therefore my sacrifice is already laid upon the alter of my ancestors."

But you, O Children who call yourselves Israel, you are not who you claim. You are not what you claim. If you were then you would not act as you do. The voice of your brother cries out from the Earth for Justice. You murder and destroy yet you claim that you are YHWH's chosen. You kill children and destroy the shops of peaceful merchants, just as did the devils on the eve of Krystal Nacht.

You have become the Adversary and like the Adversary you are now given an ultimatum from the People of Allah. Cease your criminal acts of tyranny and oppression or face the Wrath of God through the hands of Hu's servants. The Ummah of the Prophet foretold in the Torah, in the Song of Solomon, and in the Injil is rising up to fight against your devilish oppression. The victims of your greed will not have died in vein. Their blood will not go unavenged.

It is the sincere desire of Islam to do everything within our power to live in peace and tranquility with the nations who have not yet opened their eyes to the Reality. Similarly, the Qur'an teaches us to respect the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab). Yet, we are also taught "Do not oppress and be not oppressed."

"And remember when Moses said to his people, 'O my people! Verily, you have sinned to your own hurt, by taking the calf to worship it: Be then turned to your Creator, and slay the guilty among you; this will be best for you with your Creator'." Qur'an, Sura 2:51

"O believers! Retaliation for bloodshed is prescribed to you... but he to whom his brother shall make any remission, is to be dealt with equitably; and to him he shall pay a fine with liberality. This is a relaxation [of the Law in the Torah] from your Lord and a Mercy." Qur'an, Sura 2:173 & 174

We are taught that it is our religious obligation to obliterate all forces of evil in this world that trample upon the rights and liberties of those who have done nothing to harm any.

We are told to first oppose within our Hearts, and then speak out with our tongues, then restrain with our hands and then finally to wage Jihad with our weapons. We have opposed in our Hearts and now you are being given your final warning. Turn in SUBMISSION to our God and your God and you will taste Paradise. Turn not and you will surely be destroyed. May all mankind be worthy of true Redemption when the "Swords Will Be Beaten into Plowshares" and Knowledge of YHWH will cover over the world as waters cover the face of the Earth. Until that Day, "think not that I come to bring peace. For I come to bring a sword."

May Allah enlighten out eyes with the Light of Hu's Torah, Gospel and Qur'an. May we see the Truth unveiled; that we are not many traditions and faiths, but rather One singular, undivided Faith, from Adam to Enoch to Noah to Abraham to Isaac and Ishmael to Moses and Aaron, to David and Solomon to Judah Maccabbee to John the Baptizer and Jesus the Messiah to Muhammad and `Ali to Al-Mahdi and Al-Masih; the Two Witnesses unto mankind in this corrupt age of decadence, downpression and unequal treatment of brother at the hand of brother.

May Peace be upon all of Allah's 124,000 Prophets, from Adam (as) to Muhammad (sal).

May Allah be well-pleased with those who serve Hu and bear Witness to the Reality unveiled

May YHWH-Allah turn us from our self-ish and ego-centered ways so that we might see the one undivided Ruach, Ruh, the Holy Spirit that lives within us ALL.

May Allah hasten the end of the apostate Anti-Christ state of Israel.

May Allah open the eye of Jews, Christian and Muslims alike.

May Allah protect Hu's People in this age of Tribulation.

May Allah protect Hu's People from the Shaiytan, the rejected one, and his Dajjal.

May Allah bring about the destruction of the infernal Babylon system in one hour.

May Allah hasten the end of suffering through the Imam's Rise.

Forward to Eden.

According to the Old Testament, only the Messiah can re-establish the State of Israel.

So forgetting the Quran for a moment and the antagonist Zionist movement, if we were to focus on the Book of the Jews, Christians, and yes the one that Muslims too respect, modern day Israel is a sinful and illegal creation.

Lets consider that too since someone, (MS maybe? I can't recall) started the religion part of the conversation

Ok Liban, but what I have a hard time with, is why would people question something which was given/promised to the Jews/Israelites by god. You belive in Allah, you do not question him, so why do you question this, which has been stated in the Bible.

The Israaelites were told, if you read the link I posted, that they would have to take the land by force, and if you look what was actually promised it's no where near what they have now.

Like I said, only the Messiah can re-create the Land of Israel.

The Jews lost their privilages when they turned their back on Jesus. Thats when the temple was broken and Israel lost to them.

Also Eretz Israel is a fallacy. It is based on manifestos that have little to do with religion and more to do with politics.

But sadly once again the actions of a few have been used to justify the persecution of the many.

But yes you're right, in that there were commandments laid down which said the land would be theirs only if they were followed.

But it's something which can go round and round.

Of course in an ideal world it should matter and all these people should learn to live together.

Liban, I agree with what you say. However, I would suggest to save your time and energy. "They" will never, ever, ever, acknowledge that we rights of any sort.

Knight, your elegent speech cannot hide a great deal of arrogance and fundamentalism. You even failed to agree with me on a solution based on 2 countries living side by side. So don't under-estimate my inteligence, and don't think you are superiour by speaking about debate.

Arnie, I know what arrogance means. It is the arrogance itself to ask me to define "discussion", and then remind me of the meaning of arrogance. My English is not as good as yours, but it is good enough.