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If you believe everyone, it appears that Israel plans on taking on Iran alone. I do hope that is the case.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02 ... z1lI96uvay

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta is expressing new concerns about Iran's underground nuclear program, this time telling Washington Post columnist David Ignatius he's worried Israel may decide to attack it as early as this spring.

Traveling with the defense secretary in Brussels to cover his meeting with NATO defense ministers, Ignatius writes, "Panetta believes there is a strong likelihood that Israel will strike Iran in April, May or June.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02 ... z1lPDiuDva

Here is another very interesting article. It's a look inside the Gods of Israel (Nettie and Barak) and others with regard to Israel attacking Iran. Well worth the read. Israel talks alot, but I don't read where it is actually providing any proof of their claims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/magaz ... wanted=all

“............My understanding is that the United States has asked Israel not to attack Iran and to provide Washington with notice if it intends to strike. Israel responded negatively to both requests. It refused to guarantee that it will not attack or to provide prior notice if it does.” Kroenig went on, “My hunch is that Israel would choose to give warning of an hour or two, just enough to maintain good relations between the countries but not quite enough to allow Washington to prevent the attack

****

Israel seems to think it is the only country in the region that is entitled and should be allowed to have nuclear weapons without being part of the IAEA. They seemed a bit troubled that Saudi Arabia has put the US on notice that they themselves could possibly start a nuclear program. Isn't Iran an enemy to Saudi Arabia, as much as Saudi Arabia is an enemy to Iran? Isn't Israel an enemy to Iran as much as Iran is to Israel? Doesn't Iran have the right to protect itself against Israel, as Israel claims the right to protect itself against Iran or any other country they deem to be an enemy? Doesn't Israel consider any Middle Eastern country as an "enemy" that does not recognize Israel as a legitimate state, and there are several countries that take that position? Doesn't Saudi Arabia have the right to protect itself from Iran? The region is going to end up being a mine field.

Israel has no idea what the domino effect will be by attacking Iran and I hope other countries stay out of it and let Israel suffer the consequences of their own actions. Israel can't enter Iran on the ground without trying to enter Jordan, Lebanon, Syria or Iraq. More than likely Lebanon, Syria and Iraq would give passage to Iran seeing as how Hezbollah/Hamas would join in the fight against Israel without hesitation.

Bora Bora wrote:Isn't Israel an enemy to Iran as much as Iran is to Israel?

You can say that on some level I think, yes.

Bora Bora wrote:Doesn't Iran have the right to protect itself against Israel, as Israel claims the right to protect itself against Iran or any other country they deem to be an enemy?

Of course. Is there anybody claiming a country cannot defend itself?

Bora Bora wrote: Doesn't Israel consider any Middle Eastern country as an "enemy" that does not recognize Israel as a legitimate state

No, UAE doesn't recognize Israel for example, but isnot considered an enemy state. Currently 9 countries/entities are considered official enemies of Israel: Afghanistan, Gaza, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Yemen. Many more donot recognize Israel.

Bora Bora wrote:The region is going to end up being a mine field.

Future tense? It's already a mine field IMO. It's just another day in the ME :-p.

Bora Bora wrote: Israel can't enter Iran on the ground without trying to enter Jordan, Lebanon, Syria or Iraq.

They have paratroopers. Don't be surprised about other options also.

Bora Bora wrote:how Hezbollah/Hamas would join in the fight against Israel without hesitation.

I really have strong doubts about that, that Hamas and Hezbollah, will join without hesitation. The threat of war by proxy by Iran is significantly reduced lately.

I'll start worrying once children in Israel have to go with gas masks again to school. That's not the case (for) now. And as a side note I think it's a good thing Israel neutralized the nuclear capabilities of Saddam and Assad. If a country deems something necessary for self defense, or for its survival, it will do so. That's where international law stops. According to the Genevan Conventions an army is not allowed to shoot paratroopers in the air, they have to wait until paratroopers are on the ground...

Last time Israel took orders from the US (in 1973) and made them sitting ducks, it nearly meant the end, Israel will not make that mistake again.

Great post Bora.

The sabre rattling is getting louder and louder indeed.

Neti is struggling at home politically and this makes me even more nervous - he's crazy enough to actually start a war and damn the consequences. The spin out of Israel these days is that the Iranians aren't sane people - there Shia beliefs are being used to accuse them of being irrational, and Messianical in their beliefs - i.e. that if they got a bomb they would use it and damn the consequences, because (as the spin would have it) the Iranians want the destruction of Israel/Jews so that the time of the Messiah* will be ushered in.

*Messiah, Imam Mahdi, 2nd Coming - all interchangeable here.



For me the irony is that EXACTLY the same argument can be made for the religious extremists in Israel that think God wills them to establish a 'Greater Israel' and that the Messiah is yet to come. They are actually as crazy (to outsiders) as the Iranians are being being portrayed (I'd say falsely portrayed).

The scary part is that it is the latter 'tail' in Israel that wagging the dog at the moment. My reading of Israeli media shows the majority of Israelis are not Messianical and full of this hatred of Iran etc - and are indeed worried about the consequences of an Israeli attack. However they appear to me to be in the same situation as the millions of Europeans and Americans who marched againt the invasion of Iraq and said 'not in my name'.

The drums of war are beating, but I hope something can be done before the hot heads in Israel take it too far.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:For me the irony is that EXACTLY the same argument can be made for the religious extremists in Israel that think God wills them to establish a 'Greater Israel' and that the Messiah is yet to come.

Greater Israel has nothing to do with Iran. Iran is not part of 'Greater Israel'.

My point is that the extremists who believe in the Greater Israel are the 'tail' wagging the 'dog' - and that the irony is that the spin that Israel is putting on the 'Iranians aren't rational, they are Shia with a Messianical beliefs' actually applies +more strongly+ to the Israeli extremists.

On the Iranian side, we have had fatwas from Ayatollahs saying that it would be unIslamic to use nuclear weapons. And not fringe Ayatollahs either - but the main Shia ruling clerics. By contrast, extremist Rabbis have written books that justify the killing of non-Jewish civilians, even children.

But this isn't a 'what aboutery' argument - just my view that much of the words against Iran coming from Israel is pure propaganda these days.

I'm always very annoyed and concerned about any 'nazi-like' dehumanisation of a whole people - and to my ears, the 'Iranians aren't rational' argument is a prime example of dehumanisation. The frightening part is that this is being done by a nation with nuclear weapons +and+ an extremist fringe that seems to want war.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:My point is that the extremists who believe in the Greater Israel are the 'tail' wagging the 'dog'

Israeli's who seek actively a greater israel are a few % at most of the the total population. I estimate them less than 1% actually.

shafique wrote: Israel is putting on the 'Iranians aren't rational, they are Shia with a Messianical beliefs' actually applies +more strongly+ to the Israeli extremists.

Which Israeli cabinet member(s) say(s) that?

shafique wrote: On the Iranian side, we have had fatwas from Ayatollahs saying that it would be unIslamic to use nuclear weapons. And not fringe Ayatollahs either - but the main Shia ruling clerics. By contrast, extremist Rabbis have written books that justify the killing of non-Jewish civilians, even children.

This comparison is just ridiculous.

shafique wrote:But this isn't a 'what aboutery' argument

What you call whataboutery arguments are fine with me, as long as it's done within limits. Who is whataboutering in this thread?

shafique wrote:I'm always very annoyed and concerned about any 'nazi-like' dehumanisation of a whole people

Who said that the whole of the Iranian people is irrational? Perhaps the claim is made against the Iranian government, but the whole of the Iranian people?

Flying Dutchman ,

Based on the facts that Israel has violated the Geneva Convention on more than one occasion the GC doesn't apply to Israel. It's only enforced when it comes to other countries that violate it.

It isn't about "taking orders" FD. It's about maintaining "relationships". The fact is the US takes orders from Israel and the US pays Israel to give them. If the money stopped flowing from the US to Israel, then neither country owes anything to the other. Now, that's something many of the US taxpayers would like to see.

When I say a minefield I'm talking about every country in the reigon will arm itself with nuclear weapons. The UAE is pretty much the one country that remains "neutral". Although taking that position, it can still be viewed as an "enemy" without an aggitation involved. The exception being it will not allow those who hold the Israeli passport to enter the country.

There is no peace with Israel and the surrounding countries - there is tolerance. Hezbollah and Hamas will act on any attack or attempt by Israel to step into their territory. As for paratroopers, they will get shot down as they descend. No one knows what kind of hand weapons Iran has, the same way no one knows how far they are on their nuclear program. I just hope it's Israeli paratroopers that jump from the planes and not American. America has too much to lose in the region to get involved, excluding Israel. Although Russia and China makes noise about supporting Iran, I don't know how much support they will show if Israel alone attacks Iran. Israel is so blind as to see the depth of their actions in that they could start WWIII.

Bora Bora wrote:Based on the facts that Israel has violated the Geneva Convention on more than one occasion the GC doesn't apply to Israel. It's only enforced when it comes to other countries that violate it.

Give me a list of presumed Israeli violations and I'll give you a list of Arab violations.

Bora Bora wrote:It's about maintaining "relationships".

There are no relations to keep if you are wiped out of the pages of history.

Bora Bora wrote:The fact is the US takes orders from Israel and the US pays Israel to give them.

Any proof that US takes orders from Israel except for insinuations? And US pays Israel, so Israel can give orders? That sounds like disturbed kinky money slavery to me. I think you got that wrong, or did I misunderstood?

Bora Bora wrote:If the money stopped flowing from the US to Israel, then neither country owes anything to the other. Now, that's something many of the US taxpayers would like to see.

Agreed, Israel IMHO would also be better off.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Give me a list of presumed Israeli violations and I'll give you a list of Arab violations.

Now, that is a 'what aboutery' argument. Plain and simple.

"Other people have committed crimes too " is not a credible defence - and indeed it is an admission of Bora's point.

We've discussed Israel's war crime when it violated international law and evicted the historic Maghreb quarter in Jerusalem and bulldozed the houses and even destroyed a mosque after it had captured East Jerusalem in 1967. Clear violation of GC. A clear violation of Section III of the GC.

Also Israel is guilty of collective punishments - again against GC. Each colony/settlement built on land occupied in 1967 is also in violation of GC.

Cheers,
Shafique

^If you say so. It's just disapproving the point BB made:

It's only enforced when it comes to other countries that violate it.

According to BB, the GC is only enforced when its not Israel. That's dead wrong. Plain and simple.

Sorry, I don't see how Bora's point is wrong.

Israel has violated the Geneva Conventions and no sanctions (in the general sense) has been taken against Israel for these violations (see the examples I give above in my edit).

This supports Bora's point explicitly.

Cheers,

Shafique

shafique wrote:This supports Bora's point explicitly.

So you agree that countries except Israel do get prosecuted for alleged violations? You have made up several things already is this thread, but that would be the cake. You are making things up, without foundation, and that leaves you wresting with yourself, having created your own fictional opponents.

I'm saying that Israel gets away with its violations of the Geneva Conventions and what Bora said is that it is only enforced when other countries violate it. She didn't say that every other violation of the GC is enforced - but rather that in the cases where it is enforced, it is NOT Israel.

I'd rather try and stick to a civil discussion and avoid personal attacks FD. Please try and not twist what I or Bora have written - if you don't understand ask and we'll explain. Ask nicely, is a phrase you've used a few times - if that is advice you give others, I'd expect you'd want to follow it yourself.

Can we address the fact that Israel has indeed violated the Geneva Conventions and not been sanctioned for these violations - from displacing occupied peoples to building colonies and collective punishments.

Bora's point was quite clear - the pot is calling the kettle black here. The pot being Israel.



Bora, 'exceptionalism' when it comes to Israel and the USA is nothing new. Some people explain it away as 'real politik'. As we've discussed separately, there are terrorists who have blown up planes who are living in the USA with the full knowledge and assistance of the US state, for example.

Cheers,

Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

Give me a list of presumed Israeli violations and I'll give you a list of Arab violations.

There are no relations to keep if you are wiped out of the pages of history.

Any proof that US takes orders from Israel except for insinuations? And US pays Israel, so Israel can give orders? That sounds like disturbed kinky money slavery to me. I think you got that wrong, or did I misunderstood?

Agreed, Israel IMHO would also be better off

Presumed violations?? Is your head in the sand?? So Israel's violations are presumed, while you have a list of Arab violations (which are fact?). I guess you are going to tell me that Israel hasn't violated any International Human Rights laws as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... ettlements
http://www.crimesofwar.org/commentary/w ... s-in-gaza/

Israel should think about the possibility of being wiped out of the pages of history should it proceed.

Yes, the US does take orders from Israel. I guess you would have to be more in touch with how over the years the US government has made itself look like a complete fool by catering to Israel in it's support, even when the facts and actions dictated the obvious, while every other country saw what the US pretended not to see.

The US gives aid to other countries, but doesn't feel compelled to get involved in problems with neighboring countries. If the US stopped giving financial aid to Israel maybe it would take the same position. Let Israel either rise or fall on its own.

Palestine was found violating the GC. You know how it was handled? Israel was allowed to continue to violate the GC and commit crimes under the Internationl Human Rights laws.

What exactly is it about Jews that they have been exiled from almost every country that they have ever inhabited, beginning with Israel and the Middle East and leading all the way up to Germany, France, Spain, England, and Russia? Russia was exiling them in the 90s.

Bora Bora wrote:What exactly is it about Jews that they have been exiled from almost every country that they have ever inhabited, beginning with Israel and the Middle East and leading all the way up to Germany, France, Spain, England, and Russia? Russia was exiling them in the 90s.

And you had the nerve to call me Adolf???

Bora Bora wrote:What exactly is it about Jews that they have been exiled from almost every country that they have ever inhabited, beginning with Israel and the Middle East and leading all the way up to Germany, France, Spain, England, and Russia? Russia was exiling them in the 90s.

That's not a very nice thing to say Bora.

Flying Dutchman ,

I was asking a question FD based on fact and history. What is it about Jews that they were exiled from so many countries? It's a valid question which you take personally and respond to with hostility.

What is with you? Are you one of those people who thinks that if someone isn't pro-Israel they are anti-Israel? If Israel is such a model country, then why are they at odds with it's neighbors? This is the 21st Century and they can't seem to get past history. Living in the past and using the past as an excuse for behavior makes progression impossible.

If you have such an affection and love for your country then maybe you should live there and defend it like those Israelis who live there and are ready to defend it, not being cowards and cheerleading from another part of the world. Now those are people who do love their country and are willing to die defending it. I'm sure they would welcome one more defender. You justify everything Israel does, the way the mad men of Israel do, without thinking about the lives of the people that make up that country, the majority who only want to live in peace. There will never be peace if the mad men of Israel can't restrain themselves from being so aggressive. You think the life of an innocent Israeli child is worth more than the life of an innocent Iranian or Palestinian child?

My concern is what events will take place if Israel does attack Iran. My bigger concern is that no Americans are dragged into it and die for a country that has little regard for law and human life.

--- Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:44 pm ---

Bethsmum ,

I didn't "say" anything. I asked a question BM because that is what happened. I'm asking why did it happen? It's a historical fact. There has to be a reason or reasons for it to have happened. Can you or FD tell me what the reason or reasons were?

I guess I should not expect more when it comes to the subject of Israel.

Edit: I see you already ediited your post BB...

Flying Dutchman ,

Good response.

--- Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:52 pm ---

Flying Dutchman ,

Yes FD, I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong, or correcting it. That was done during a very heated exchange. But you mentioning it doesn't change the fact that I asked a question that is based on fact and history, which you took personal.

So, if you can be objective and leave your personal feelings aside, can you tell me the reason or reasons for what took place in history?

Bora Bora wrote:What is with you? Are you one of those people who thinks that if someone isn't pro-Israel they are anti-Israel?

No.

Bora Bora wrote:If Israel is such a model country

I donot think Israel is a model country at all.

Bora Bora wrote:If you have such an affection and love for your country then maybe you should live there

I do have an apartment there an have residency. .

Bora Bora wrote: and defend it like those Israelis who live there and are ready to defend it

When push come to shove, I am ready to defend it.

Bora Bora wrote:You justify everything Israel does

Not really, There is a lot to criticize Israel for.

Bora Bora wrote:ETA: I just checked my posts and indeed during a very nasty exchange I did refer to FD as Adolf

I apologized for my part some while ago...

Flying Dutchman ,

Having an apartment in Israel is not the same as living in Israel. Do you hold the Israeli passport? Did you serve in the military as required? What is push comes to shove? How hard would you have to be pushed to join it's military ranks?

You still haven't answered my question.

I apologized for my part some while ago...

And I didn't???

Bora Bora wrote:Having an apartment in Israel is not the same as living in Israel. Do you hold the Israeli passport? Did you serve in the military as required? What is push comes to shove? How hard would you have to be pushed to join it's military ranks?

Question that are too personal.

Bora Bora wrote:You still haven't answered my question.

Jews were always considered as some sort of ghost people. Throughout history many libels were invented about them, which we can still see today.
Nowadays, Arabs are full of envy and still in some sort of psychosis that they got their a$$ kicked by the Woody Allens of this world several times, while they wanted to destroy Israel. Also, Israel divides the Arab world literally in two. Its a thorn in the eye, and yet the Arabs haven't succeeded in building the KSA-Egypt bridge.

Bora Bora wrote:And I didn't???

Than I must have missed it.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Jews were always considered as some sort of ghost people. Throughout history many libels were invented about them, which we can still see today. Nowadays, Arabs are full of envy and still in some sort of psychosis that they got their a$$ kicked by the Woody Allens of this world several times, while they wanted to destroy Israel. Also, Israel divides the Arab world literally in two. Its a thorn in the eye, and yet the Arabs haven't succeeded in building the KSA-Egypt bridge.

You seem to be fixated on the Arabs. I'm aware of the Arab-Jewish history. I don't think it's really much of an answer FD - envy, Wood Allens, the KSA-Egypt bridge which only got the nod to go ahead last July, so I would find it highly unlikely that it would have been completed by now.

As for Arab-envy, what is it that Arabs envy?? Would that be the protection Israel enjoys under the US? What about the other countries: France, Spain, England, and Russia? Russia was still exiling Jews in the 1990s. What kind of "libels" are you referring to. (I'm serious with my questions. I would like to see the thinking and perspective a someone who is Jewish.)

Bora Bora wrote:Russia was still exiling Jews in the 1990s.

It is my understanding that Soviet/Russian restrictions on emigration were loosened, and Jews used that to immigrate to Israel. I was not aware that Russia exiled Jews in the 1990s. What makes you think Russia exiled Jews in the 1990s?

What were the type of countries that exiled Jews in the first place?

Were they at the time a beacon for freedom, human rights and tolerance?

That should answer your question.

More likely it says more about those nations than it does about Jews.

Flying Dutchman ,

Well in the 1990s Jews were still migrating to the US, which was probably a result of Russia relaxing the immigration laws. The fact is Russia did not want them and Jews were persecuted in Russia, even up to the 1990s. It was easier for a Russian Jew to leave Russia than it was for a Russian Christian. Where I used to live there were many Russian Christians who paid for false documentation claiming they were Jewish to get into the US.

Putting that aside, lets go back prior to that time and address the time when Russia exiled Jews. Why did that happen, along with the other countries I mentioned? You are starting to come across like Shaft. You give an abbreviated answer that suits you while avoiding the real question. I also asked what "libels" were created against the Jews.

I get the feeling that if the topic were about Muslims you would have alot to say in that department.

I already gave my answer, or my point of view. I always wonder why people ask me questions and then when they donot like the answer they start their personal insluts (like you, BB). If you donot like the answer, donot ask the question, a simple truth which does not seem to get into brains with an IQ less their age.

I donot know what people where thinking who claimed the "Jews poisoned the well" and then killed them, or what was the train of thought behind the Elders of Zion, just to name a few libels. Libels were and are there (the stupid claim by Egyptians that a shark in the Red Sea is a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy is just one of many recent examples), my guess is that its because certain people hate Jews. The Catholic church in the past (especially during the inquisition), nazi's, neo-nazi's and Islamofascists. Ask them why they hate Jews.



It seems you are only satisfied with one answer, and start bullying when another is given. Try to calm down!

Flying Dutchman wrote:I already gave my answer, or my point of view. I always wonder why people ask me questions and then when they donot like the answer they start their personal insluts (like you, BB). If you donot like the answer, donot ask the question, a simple truth which does not seem to get into brains with an IQ less their age.I donot know what people where thinking who claimed the "Jews poisoned the well" and then killed them, or what was the train of thought behind the Elders of Zion, just to name a few libels. Libels were and are there (the stupid claim by Egyptians that a shark in the Red Sea is a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy is just one of many for example), my guess is that its because certain people hate Jews. The Catholic church in the past (especially during the inquisition), nazi's, neo-nazi's and Islamofascists. Ask them why they hate Jews. It seems you are only satisfied with one answer, and start bullying when another is given. Try to calm down!

First of all I didn't start any personal insults. You are the one with the sensitivity issues FD. When SOMEONE can't support something THEY said and gives some half-assed answer and thinks that qualifies as an answer or doesn't answer a question at all, either way it would appear that's an indication that one really can't give an answer with substance. Why don't you just say you don't know, or I don't want to answer that, rather than fill space up with something you want to pass off as an answer. YOU mentioned libels, you opened a door to something and I asked that you give examples. Due to the fact that I have no interest in Jewish history, it was an opportunity for you to share what you knew, but from the responses you have given, it seems there isn't very much. I would have thought the depth of your knowledge went far beyond what you have demonstrated.

Trying to get an answer that actually relates to a question from you is like pulling teeth. You just don't know how to put a question and an answer together or how to answer a question at all.

For you information the question comes first, then the answer. Not the other way around. Reminds me of Johnny Carson when he would hold a sealed envelope up to his head and ask "What is the answer?" and then Ed McMahon would give him the answer and then Johnny would open the envelope and read the question. Ass-backwards.

Enough said.

--- Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:18 pm ---

event horizon wrote:What were the type of countries that exiled Jews in the first place?Were they at the time a beacon for freedom, human rights and tolerance?That should answer your question.More likely it says more about those nations than it does about Jews.

Thank you for your insight. As usual, very informative and enlightening.

Well, I am out of this crazy bat cave.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Well, I am out of this crazy bat cave.

Of course it's not you, it's everyone else that is crazy!!!!