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Lionheart, has the West also forced some Arab countries to have Johnny Rockets, Starbucks, Ford, McDonalds, Chilis, TGI Friday's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Hard Rock Cafe, Pepsi, CocaCola, Planet Hollywood, and Applebee's etc. etc. What about all the television, movie and music that comes from the US and the West. If Arab people are really that concerned about the US or other Western countries being an evil power - why gobble up so much Western culture? Westernisation happens because many Arabs let it happen - they like aspects of Western culture. Even bad government policy doesn't seem to affect the taste for all things Western.

Lionheart, you have yet to present a balanced view of anything. You claim that all of the Western media is propagandist, but you are taking sides with the Arab/Muslim propagandists. Propaganda sucks, no matter which side it comes from.

Lionheart, sorry, Ive just been reading a few of your posts and have a question for you.............

Arent there lots of Muslims in the "West"?



Does that mean you are against those Muslims because they are western?

Just wondering?

Dont send me to Hell for asking!!

kanelli wrote:Lionheart, has the West also forced some Arab countries to have Johnny Rockets, Starbucks, Ford, McDonalds, Chilis, TGI Friday's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Hard Rock Cafe, Pepsi, CocaCola, Planet Hollywood, and Applebee's etc. etc. What about all the television, movie and music that comes from the US and the West. If Arab people are really that concerned about the US or other Western countries being an evil power - why gobble up so much Western culture? Westernisation happens because many Arabs let it happen - they like aspects of Western culture. Even bad government policy doesn't seem to affect the taste for all things Western.

Lionheart, you have yet to present a balanced view of anything. You claim that all of the Western media is propagandist, but you are taking sides with the Arab/Muslim propagandists. Propaganda sucks, no matter which side it comes from.

Arabs could replace the western products with product made by Muslims, mattar fact by replace western products with products made by their citizens...Arabs improve their markets, so my friend the West is not doing Arabs or anyone in the third a favor by selling western products in Arab world or anywhere in third world. They are actually benefitting from global market. Cocacola, Pepsi, Starbuck, Mcdonald's, etc wouldn't be as wealth as they are without the large market in Mid east or the third world. Like Hugo Chavez did in Venezuala, Western Movies and music could easily be replaced with local production and Music.


Don't get me wrong, I believe in free trade with the West or anywhere in the World..but what I don't believe or like is unfair trade practised by Western Capatilism against countries in Africa, Asia, South America and its not only me who is against this unfair trade balance..there are billions of people around the world who are also against this unfair balance of trade against the poorest countries in the world.

Lionheart, you have yet to present a balanced view of anything. You claim that all of the Western media is propagandist, but you are taking sides with the Arab/Muslim propagandists. Propaganda sucks, no matter which side it comes from

Okey, I will admit that I was wrong in lumping all Western journalist as propogandist. There are abviously some Western journalist who are fair and balanced about the issues they report. Look I don't mean to offend you or any other Western citizens...I'm just reacting to what I see and hear from some Western Media outlets and the actions of Western powers in Mid east and other parts of the muslim world.

SheikhaS wrote:Lionheart, sorry, Ive just been reading a few of your posts and have a question for you.............

Arent there lots of Muslims in the "West"?



Does that mean you are against those Muslims because they are western?

Just wondering?

Dont send me to Hell for asking!!

I'm not against the West or anyone for that matter...what I'm against is western involvement and interferrence in Mid east or anywhere in the World. I'm pretty sure Westerners would not like Middle easterners telling them what type of government they need, or whether they should be allowed to have weapons to protect itself.

I don't oppose westerners living and doing business in Mid east or anywhere in the Muslim world as long as they respect laws of the land...the same way muslim who choses to live in the West is expected to respect the laws of the land he lives.


"Dont send me to Hell for asking!! :shock"

I'm an individual and I'm no way of judge you or anyone...God is the only that can judge you. I'm not an ignorant fanatic that believes his way of live is the only... I'm very much tolerant to other believes and cultures.

arniegang wrote:You need to seek medical help urgently to remove that huge "chip off your shoulder" Lionheart

I think you are the one who needs mental examination "arniegang".......

Simple question....

Would Westerners tolerate if the roles were reversed... in that Muslims are the one liberating, bringing Islamic laws, bringing freedom, etc to the West?

Mr Chip on Your Shoulder.

This may come as a huge surprise to you but i live 100 mts from a Mosque.

In the UK we welcome and embrace all faiths.

Lionheart you need to get your head out your arse and look around. Bringing Islamic laws to the UK.

Why?

We have a parliament and our elected representatives that make our Law. Why should we accept Islamic Law in a mainly Christian Country.

The ME in the main governs itself and the laws are relevant to your culture, we do the same.

Whats your problem?

Please be specific in telling us which muslim / Islamic countries where a western government has enforced its own laws.

arniegang wrote:Mr Chip on Your Shoulder.

This may come as a huge surprise to you but i live 100 mts from a Mosque.

In the UK we welcome and embrace all faiths.

Lionheart you need to get your head out your arse and look around. Bringing Islamic laws to the UK.

Why?

We have a parliament and our elected representatives that make our Law. Why should we accept Islamic Law in a mainly Christian Country.

The ME in the main governs itself and the laws are relevant to your culture, we do the same.

Whats your problem?

Please be specific in telling us which muslim / Islamic countries where a western government has enforced its own laws.

You percieve me as having chip on my shoulder for what...wanting unity between muslim brothers, wanting to live in peace without being threatened with invasions, wanting to seek the ability to defend muslim lands from invasiond and threats, wanting to better the lives of disfranchised muslims and citizens in Mid east and Asia.


"In the UK we welcome and embrace all faiths."

Its good that you welcome people of all faiths to your land..know give us the same opportunity to welcome and tolerate people of other faiths like the old muslim Khaliphate...let us remove the intolerant dictatorship in Mid east and replace them with Khaliphate that seeks uynity and tolerance.


Lionheart you need to get your head out your arse and look around. Bringing Islamic laws to the UK.

You twisted my words...especifically stated that what if the roles were reversed... and it was the muslims imposing Islamic laws and culture on Westerners...like British/Americans have done in Iraq.. Would westerners tolerate this?


"We have a parliament and our elected representatives that make our Law. Why should we accept Islamic Law in a mainly Christian Country."

I could ask you the same question... Why should MUslims in Mid east except democracy and capatilism, when they have Islamic which is greater than any other laws...besides most of middle east is muslim.


"Please be specific in telling us which muslim / Islamic countries where a western government has enforced its own laws"

Wasn't Iraq invaded for the sole purpose of bringing democracy to Iraq...like British/Americans have claimed.

Mr Chip

I call you this because that is the personallity you portray on here. Maybe you need to read back over your cuts and pastes and look at the replies.

You twisted my words...especifically stated that what if the roles were reversed... and it was the muslims imposing Islamic laws and culture on Westerners...like British/Americans have done in Iraq.. Would westerners tolerate this?

i didnt twist your words. You said "what if the roles were reversed" well they arn't, and gramatically you insinuate by role reversal that this has happened in the ME.

You mention Iraq, im not going there with you, because you are so fixated in your opinion, it matters not what anyone says, that does not fit in line with your thoughts. One point though, the laws havent changed in Iraq, the Troops are just enforcing Law and order, mainly to stop mulims killing other muslims.

I could ask you the same question... Why should MUslims in Mid east except democracy and capatilism, when they have Islamic which is greater than any other laws...besides most of middle east is muslim.

Helloooooooo anyone there, wakey wakey

There is no democracy in the ME, like Kanelli said they accept capitalism because they want it.

"Please be specific in telling us which muslim / Islamic countries where a western government has enforced its own laws"

Wasn't Iraq invaded for the sole purpose of bringing democracy to Iraq...like British/Americans have claimed.

Lets take Iraq out of the equation - please answer the question.

Mr Chip

I call you this because that is the personallity you portray on here. Maybe you need to read back over your cuts and pastes and look at the replies.

What personality should I exhibit?...a personality of a servents dog like puppets Mid east. All the articles and pictures I posted are genuine facts that the so-called balanced fair western media has ignored... Arniegang instead of accussing me of posting propoganda, why not proof to me what I post is propoganda...Isn't that how democracy and free speach or are you ignoring your own values and believes.

You twisted my words...especifically stated that what if the roles were reversed... and it was the muslims imposing Islamic laws and culture on Westerners...like British/Americans have done in Iraq.. Would westerners tolerate this?

i didnt twist your words. You said "what if the roles were reversed" well they arn't, and gramatically you insinuate by role reversal that this has happened in the ME.

I know they aren't..that is why I said "what if". You don't want obviously muslim imposing laws on you...so why would you want to impose your values and believes on people in Middle east..and when they fight back you call them terrorists, fanatics.

You mention Iraq, im not going there with you, because you are so fixated in your opinion, it matters not what anyone says, that does not fit in line with your thoughts. One point though, the laws havent changed in Iraq, the Troops are just enforcing Law and order, mainly to stop mulims killing other muslims.

NO I'm not fixated...I could compromise and tolerate different opinion...but you like other Westerners can't seem to tolerate the idea of muslim uniting and abolishing borders inbetween them. Look I have no problem with Europeans seeking unity..so why do you have problem with the simple idea of muslims uniting to build a better community and future for their children.

arniegang... Iraqis new constituation was drafted by Americans..is every way and shape American/British constituation rather than Iraqi. I don't understand what law and order the occuppiers are enforcing..when Iraq is total chaos... the only thing the occuppiers are enforcing is their supremacy over the Iraqi people.

I could ask you the same question... Why should MUslims in Mid east except democracy and capatilism, when they have Islamic which is greater than any other laws...besides most of middle east is muslim.

Helloooooooo anyone there, wakey wakey

There is no democracy in the ME, like Kanelli said they accept capitalism because they want it.

Hamas and Irans leadership was democratically elected by their people...but unfortunately west won't except them, but will except corrupt the brutal regim Husni Mubarak as democratic and dictators and self proclaimed royals in the Gulf....

"Please be specific in telling us which muslim / Islamic countries where a western government has enforced its own laws"

Wasn't Iraq invaded for the sole purpose of bringing democracy to Iraq...like British/Americans have claimed.

Lets take Iraq out of the equation - please answer the question.[/quote]

How about Syria, Iran who west threatens with sanctions, wars...just because they refused to do Wests biddings...I also believe Bush administeration especifically said they would bring democracy to Mid east and the rest of the World......The same government that wished to bring democracy to mid east refused to recognize the only two home grown democratically elected governments in Mid East, Hamas and Irans leadership... hyprocricy

Lionheart, You say that you want to be given the chance to be tolerant and to welcome people of all faiths and backgrounds? Commendable, but the sad truth is many Islamic nations are constantly proving themselves to be intolerant of anything other than their own ways of life.

Take the Afghani man who converted to Christinanity, they wanted to execute him, and now he's found asylum in Italy, there's uproar as people are saying the Government wimped out and went against Sharia Law etc etc and he should have been put to death - this is not tolerant!

The Iranian whinges and moans about people investigating their nuclear programme and says it's all lovely and why shouldn't they have it and it's only for their own use - yet in the same breath wants to wipe and enitre nation off the face of the planet - this is not tolerant!

You have fanatical Islamic clerics living in western/christian countries sponging off the tax payer and living the life of riley and they're calling for people to murder 'infidels' and crying for thoser countries that have given them shelter, food and a way of life to be disrupted and commending bombings and the killings of innocents - this is not tolerant!

Lionheart, it's all a question of 'Law'. The Iraqi new constitution is NOT a totally US/British invention imposed upon them without their wishes.

The international community (I would stress that the peacekeeping forces in Iraq are made up from many different countries such as Japan, Spain, Germany, Poland) is working to see a democratically ELECTED government in Iraq. Elected by the Iraqi people for the Iraqi people instead of a dictatorship (Saddam) or a religious dictatorship (Taliban) that ignores the basic human rights and would persecute one or multiple sectors of society.

In order for this to take place, someone has to uphold the basics of international law and order. The interim Iraqi government is not able to do that. Until the elected government (the process and meaning of democracy means that everyone has the right to vote and therefore the government is the appointed body approved by the majority of Iraqis, not the US government) can make mandated decisions, then who will stop the extremists from trying to influence the people of Iraq through terror and violence. You? The Iraqi police?

The model intorduced by the US just happens to be one that has worked for many centuries and also proved itself to be fair for everyone. It has being modified to take into account the specific requirements of an Islamic state, but that modification has been done by the Iraqi government themselves. Until it can be implemented, law and order must be maintained.

For your information...the middle east does not constitute a particularly large profit area for many of the western companies operating here. There are far bigger markets out there. It is supply and demand. People in the Middle East want western products, therefore the demand is there. You can supply products from within your own market, if you made them. That takes time and expertise to learn how. Who makes cars in the middle east? Without Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Tata and General Motors where would you be?

Knight

arniegang wrote:Mr Chip on Your Shoulder.

This may come as a huge surprise to you but i live 100 mts from a Mosque.

Congratulations! Now have a bone.

Great post Jedi Knight.

Liban, you really lose credibility when all you can discuss from arnie's post is the one-liner you just gave. Arnie was pointing out that he lives amonst Muslims in the UK - that Muslims and people from many religions are able to practice their faith there. This is not the case is many Muslim countries. What do you find objectionable about that?

Lemmi answer you. He makes it look like he is so special. "Ohhh look at me, I live by a Mosque, I am so cool..." Does he mention how most mosques in the UK are under surveillance??? No!

You know in all Muslim countries, except Saudi, Christians practice freely. Saudi is the host of the Holy Sites. How many Mosques are there in the Vatican??????

So your point is mute.

Liban wrote:Lemmi answer you. He makes it look like he is so special. "Ohhh look at me, I live by a Mosque, I am so cool..." Does he mention how most mosques in the UK are under surveillance??? No!

You know in all Muslim countries, except Saudi, Christians practice freely. Saudi is the host of the Holy Sites. How many Mosques are there in the Vatican??????

So your point is mute.

Actually, no that wasn't Arnie's point, only your interpretation of his point based on your own biases.

How do you know that people practising other faiths are not under surveillance in other countries? Are you claiming that all mosques in the UK are under surveillance? Also, is there a particular reason why mosques might be under surveillance rather than the churches or synagogues or temples?

Having your belongings looked through to check for too much religious paraphanalia when you move into a country, and having only limited or no ability to build churches and religious schools isn't entirely "free to practise". Look at some of the people in the UAE that complain over Christmas being in their faces every time they go to the shopping mall in November and December. Hardly tolerant. Interestingly, many of the business owners are Muslims who make good money off of all the Christians or Christian-heritage people who buy all of the Christmas goods. I have to say though, that it was wonderful to see so many Muslims posing and taking pictures next to the large Christmas tree and igloo that were in the Mall of the Emirates. They seemed to enjoy the decoration and festivity, which was cool.

What is your point about mosques in the Vatican? I never said that there should be a church located in Mecca, did I? Are there a lot of Muslims living near the Vatican, and are there a lot of Christians living near Mecca?

Lemmi answer you. He makes it look like he is so special. "Ohhh look at me, I live by a Mosque, I am so cool..." Does he mention how most mosques in the UK are under surveillance??? No!

Liban

I dont for one second think it is cool to live near a mosque. I mentioned it in relation to Lionhearts constant bleeting about western intollerance to Islam.

You post with no possession of the facts. To state that all mosques are under surveillance is totally untrue. You use the Word ALL like you are very knowledgable. You arn't.

The only mosques that are under surveillance are those where known clerics and terrorist groups congregates. I just happen to live in an area that has a large muslim community.

Interestingly they dont have the same crap attitude you have, they are nice friendly people who have made a huge effort to integrate. They are welcomed with opened arms here.

Arniegang, Im just trying to get my head around the "integrating" part of your last post. Im not being rude or argumentative, just think that its still in our minds that Muslims are different in a way. Just makes me wonder how a Muslim has to integrate?Apart from going to a mosque if available, and making sure that the food from Tesco is halal, what else is there to integrate?
I would definately use the word integrate when talking about, say for example, a Pakistani regardless of religion, who has just moved to the UK and has to adapt to the way of life, but certainly not because of their religion.

After reading all about the west and Muslims I just wondered how can you put the 2 in one context? I am a british Muslim(Anglo saxon!) and I certainly dont need to integrate or adapt to the West?!

Isnt it better for us to talk of Muslims and Christians, and East and west?!

Sorry going off topic, not pointing the finger at you Arnie in particular, but just made me think......

Oh and Lionheart, just for the record I dont agree with you. Everyone has their own opinion about the ME versus the "west" and lets just leave it at that.

Oh and a question.......what does New Zealand and Australia come under?!
West, east, off the record?, out of the argument?!!hee hee

You know in all Muslim countries, except Saudi, Christians practice freely. Saudi is the host of the Holy Sites. How many Mosques are there in the Vatican??????

So your point is mute.[/quote]

All Muslim countries? What about the guy in Afghanistan who converted to Christianity and was under a DEATH SENTENCE!?? Is that practicing feely?

Knight

Sheika

Thank you for posting and entering into the debate, i dont take offence at your post in the least. You were most polite.

I live in an area of the UK that has taken in many 000's of asylum seekers over the last 3/4 years. I meant no offense when i mentioned integration, but we have many refugees etc from Iraq, Bosnia etc etc that now live near us.

They came here looking for shelter, support, work and safety etc. They have received housing, money and jobs and are now truely part of our community.

It is this sort of situation that makes me angry when people like Lionheart and Liban continue to bleet on about Arabs, Muslims blah blah. We live in a true democratic multi cultural society and and everyone is treated with compassion and respect, irrespective of their colour, origin or faith.

When the western chip on their shoulder brigade continue to go on on and on about Islam v the West etc etc etc, they forget it is communities like mine, that these poor people who have suffered come to to seek help.

I dont recall the arab or muslim nations taking in hordes of their brothers, giving them money, housing and safety. Stange how all the vulnerable and oppressed come to countries like the UK.

Ironic isnt it??

Really good points Arnie.

Plus Liban, why would there be mosques in the Vatican? It's the centre of Catholisism. JUst as there are no chruches and Christians are not allowed to go to Mecca, so the same same - what's your point?

Arniegang well typed reply!!

Just got me thinking for a moment before about the real arguement.

You are so right when you say that lots seek refuge in the UK a western country, and sometimes it has to be said, that the UK's own people sometimes suffer to give refugees the help they need.

Anyway, Lionheart, dont you think that when the media portrays a bad image of Arabs or Muslims or whatever, you're just the type who makes things worse by "inciting racial hatred".

Oh and just wondering.....what type of computer do you use to type on this forum? Mac? Fijutsu Siemens? Sony?

Liban wrote:So your point is mute.

Sorry, forgot to put this in my previous post. The correct term is moot, not mute. Moot Point - http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-moo1.htm

arniegang wrote:Sheika

Thank you for posting and entering into the debate, i dont take offence at your post in the least. You were most polite.

I live in an area of the UK that has taken in many 000's of asylum seekers over the last 3/4 years. I meant no offense when i mentioned integration, but we have many refugees etc from Iraq, Bosnia etc etc that now live near us.

They came here looking for shelter, support, work and safety etc. They have received housing, money and jobs and are now truely part of our community.

It is this sort of situation that makes me angry when people like Lionheart and Liban continue to bleet on about Arabs, Muslims blah blah. We live in a true democratic multi cultural society and and everyone is treated with compassion and respect, irrespective of their colour, origin or faith.

When the western chip on their shoulder brigade continue to go on on and on about Islam v the West etc etc etc, they forget it is communities like mine, that these poor people who have suffered come to to seek help.

I dont recall the arab or muslim nations taking in hordes of their brothers, giving them money, housing and safety. Stange how all the vulnerable and oppressed come to countries like the UK.

Ironic isnt it??

Perhaps it is all about evolution?

We come from a society that has been through many of the trials and tribulations, the conflict, the civil war, the religious persecution and settlement, the development of people and country, the imposition of law and order, rules that everyone understands and obeys, a stable democratic political system that is sacrosanct from overt corruption and interference from an individual source, equality for all...every growing pain that many countries are going through right now. We have thousands of years of development behind our socio economic structure and, eventually, these will come to maturity in the middle east. We had the Industrial Revolution, here we are having having the Technological Revolution. It will improve the situation for all people living in the region, no matter what their religion, but it will take time. Unfortunately there are those who would either try to take it back in time to a darker age, or try to make it happen as if it were a roller coaster...neither will create a lasting, stable society.

I too come from a part of the UK where the population is made up of people from vastly different cultures. They have all integrated successfully and peacefully to the degree that, in an area the size of Bur Dubai, you can find 5 different denomination christian churches, a mosque, a synagogue, a hindu temple, Greek Orthodox and even a Buddist temple. There are no bombs. There are no sectarian shootings. The people mingle freely in the supermarkets and all tastes are catered for. Tolerance. Every one is free to do or worship how and who they please, as long as they observe the rule of law and do not try to impose their beliefs on anyone else. If any of the people posting comments on here have actually been to the UK, then maybe they would understand what tolerance really is.

The suicide bombers who struck London last year, were British muslims, not 'Arabs'. They were protected by our tolerant system until the moment they caused such terror and devastation. Did we burn down every mosque in the country in the aftermath? Someone said that all the mosques in the UK are watched. They are now. They were not before. This is the penalty we have all paid for terrorism.

Knight

Great post DK.

another interesting point i would like to add.

I wonder how much of their salary the "chip on the shoulder brigade" give back to their Muslims brothers in need.

Me, i dont know how much, all i know is, that i pay 40% tax here in the UK, and all i do know, is that a portion of that goes to help those in need for housing, food etc, and that includes all the chip brigade fellow muslim brothers.

Do i complain ?

Nope.

Do i welcome these people here?

Yup

Excellent points guys. Plus just to pick up on the point made about resident people possibly suffering because more help is being given to those flooding to the UK looking assistance. This happened in Wales, which is where I lived before coming to Dubai. There was uproar because lots of council housing and funding was allocated to refugees and local people who'd been on a waiting list for years were just over looked. It put a lot of people out, parts of Wales still have very tight nit communities, there's even a village which you cannot live in unless you can pronounce it's name and speak fluent Welsh, it has 28 letters in it!!!!

Things have since settled down and people just get along.

I don't see many other European countries being quite as accepting. Spain, Germany and even France can be very difficult. The UK however has been branded a bit of a soft touch in the past and it is true to say that it is swamped with many facilities such as the NHS being stretched to breaking point. These are all things that need looking at. I really don't see many Middle Eastern countries being as accomodating or putting their hands in their pockets to help their 'brothers'.

OK OK OK, to please the Westerners here:

Long live the West....

Down with the MENA....

Everyone happy now? Good.

Liban wrote:OK OK OK, to please the Westerners here:

Long live the West....

Down with the MENA....

Everyone happy now? Good.

Sorry Lib, its not a question of trying to placate or please us, or for us to put down anyone, particularly the history and culture of the MENA region, we are trying to explain that the problems faced here are not new. They have been encountered before many, many times in history. One thing we humans are supposed to be able to do, as 'sentient life forms' is to learn from our experiences and adapt accordingly.

Having learned from these mistakes, we try to pass on the accumulated wisdom of centuries of experience but, like pubescent teenagers, there seem to be some who think they know better and will continue to make their mistakes and then try to find someone to blame (anyone but themselves!) when it all goes wrong. Keep this up and you destroy your own lives and those of everyone around you.

Look around. Learn from other cultures. Don't be narrow minded. Be more tolerant.

You have psychologically drawn a line in the sand in your own understanding of 'East' and 'West'. The world is a sphere. If you carry on going west...where do you end up? Here...in the east? To the people of Malaysia and Indonesia HERE is the west. The US is actually their East...it all depends on your point of view. Exactly like the political situation here dontcha think?

Knight

We need to learn from others???

Not quite.

Other cultured built what they have today as a result of the Arab and/or Islamic culture. Modern science, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, etc.. all owe their existance to us.

Thats a fact. The West needs to learn from us.