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I believe that the Quran does not contain any contradictions or inconsistencies.

However, some people do make this accusation against the Quran. Happy to explore each one in turn to see whether we can uncover whether these are indeed contradictions/inconsistent.

For the record, I believe that no verse of the Quran has even been abrogated (superseded by another) - some Muslims do believe certain verses have been abrogated, but I do not (another thread can be started if some Muslims want to debate this separate, but related, topic).

Cheers,
Shafique

A few come to mind. If you want I can specify the relevant verses

-Age of marriage : different ages are mentioned
-Drinking alocohol: first its permitted, later on not. Same with gambling. Alcohol is called Satans´s work and still in paradise rivers flow with wine. Satan´s work in paradise???
-Rewards for Christians: different rewards or punishments are specified
-Number of days of creation: different numbers are specified

Also the whole description of embryonic development and female sperm specified in Quran is wrong according to modern views.

I can go on, but lets start with above mentioned.

Thanks FD - a good list to start from.

Let's tackle the first one - minimum age. Can you please post the verses for this point and I'll tackle it (this is a new one for me - I don't recall the Quran talking about a minimum age - but rather who one can and cannot marry. )

[Briefly, the other points I am aware of - I'll give you the references when we get to them, but the answers will be:
- alcohol - never permitted in earlier verses, just that one should not perform prayer when not in control of senses (so verses still applies), and the Quran clearly states that the 'wine' in heaven is not 'alcohol' as it does not intoxify - and elsewhere states that the after-life is not imaginable by humans because we do not yet have the senses to experience this - it says we 'cannot imagine what the after life will be'

- creation of the earth - talks of periods, days etc. No inherent contradictions and verses in Quran clarify that a 'day' for God is not the same as 24hr. I think all hangs together cohesively - but we'll see.

-rewards for Christians - there are verses saying clearly what will be punishable by God and what will not be. Muslims are also promised hell for certain acts.. my recollection is that the verses contain the relevant conditions and don't qualify as contradictions. Again, we'll come to these in due course.

- embryology/creation - again, all the verses do hang together - man is created from water, from clay, from a clot etc - all refer to the same process, but different aspects. Creation initially from mineral elements and water, then the embryological development in the womb. In my view no contradictions - but we'll see from the Quranic quotes. I am interested in the specific point about Quranic description of the embryo being at odds with science - I'll look into this when we get here.]


Cheers,
Shafique

i thought Darwin had the creation aspect spot on in that mankind decended from the Neandethals/apes, ???

Arnie,

Evolution - where life forms started from less complex forms and evolved into more complex species is actually in line with what the Quran teaches.

However, Islam teaches that the original creation of life was under the command of God - he kicked the whole thing off and created the conditions for life and its evolution - ultimately going back to the creation of life from 'clay' (i.e. minerals) and water.

Cheers,
Shafique

ah got you, agreed Shaf

Can someone explain how man is created from Clay?

When you look at the chemical composition of man, we are mostly water and a limited number of elements.

Many scientists believe that life itself started from a 'primordial soup' - a mixture of water and minerals, and I would interpret the word 'clay' to be equivalent to this (clay is water and earth, after all).

Therefore, man being created from clay could be both a reference to the initial creation of Life, or to the chemical composition of man.

This is my interpretation - from a scientific point of view. 'Clay' - or more specifically the Arabic word used in the verses - may also have other connotations.

cheers,
Shafique

Alochol:

Why forbid alcohol while praying when it is forbidden at all times? Specifying that drinking isnot allowed when praying very strongly implies that using alcohol when not praying is allowed. Not allowing alcohol while driving doesn´t forbid drinking alcohol at all times, does it?
OK, we cannot understand afterlife, but saying wine is present in heaven sounds strange to me while it is so strongly forbidden (in later verses) here. But OK, I will take your word we cannot understand it...

Creation:

Sometimes earth is created in 6 days and at other time 8 days in the Quran. If this is something we cannot understand, OK...

Even the Quran itself says that some verses are ´better´ than others:
Surah 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

So, the revelation is time bound? Obviously, there are cases that Allah is substituting his own words with something better. Why not revele the best straight away???


Some scientific questions:

71:15-16 God created the seven stories heavens and made the moon as a source of light in these heavens

The moon is the source of light?

88: 20 The earth has been flattened.

And there are dozen more verses indicating very strongly that the earth is flat.

23:14 blessed Allah the best of all creators.

How many creators are there?

86:7 says human sperms originate from between the back and the ribs

hmmm...

Hi Shafique,

I've heard from some that Quran is not for proving scientific facts, but it's symbolic and represents Islam philosophy and some theology. The interpretation of Quran may vary hugely from old Iranian Sufism and mysticisms to Saudi Salafism. I kinda prefer the sufist views.

OT, Flying Dutchman, do you mean the ghost ship or that lovely tobacco?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Alochol:

Why forbid alcohol while praying when it is forbidden at all times? Specifying that drinking isnot allowed when praying very strongly implies that using alcohol when not praying is allowed. Not allowing alcohol while driving doesn´t forbid drinking alcohol at all times, does it?
OK, we cannot understand afterlife, but saying wine is present in heaven sounds strange to me while it is so strongly forbidden (in later verses) here. But OK, I will take your word we cannot understand it...

The verse still applies - do not approach prayer whilst not in control of one's senses. A later verse (in terms of when it was revealed) banned alcohol and when Muslims heard this revelation, they stopped drinking and threw away their liquor.

History teaches us that no one complained that Islam was ambiguous about the use of alcohol - it is forbidden. The fact that verses relating to prayer were revealed before the verse about alcohol being banned does not change things. Requiring sobriety does not (at least in my mind) equate to allowing drunkeness.

As for wine in heaven, the Quran says it is not alcohol, but a drink that does not cause inebriation - I'll get the quote for you. This qualification in the Quran itself should remove any confusion over whether alcohol is allowed.

I will quote the relevant passages when I can look them up.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Creation:
Sometimes earth is created in 6 days and at other time 8 days in the Quran. If this is something we cannot understand, OK...

Could you give me the verses please and I'll respond. I'll also look this up myself.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Even the Quran itself says that some verses are ´better´ than others:
Surah 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

So, the revelation is time bound? Obviously, there are cases that Allah is substituting his own words with something better. Why not revele the best straight away???

Yes, previous revelations are timebound. Quranic revelations on the other hand are not - so says the Quran itself.

Why not reveal the best straight away? Because man has evolved socially and materially. When mankind was primarily nomadic, the more 'advanced' laws of social interactions (such as possessions, inheritance etc) would not have been relevant. Also, if there was not a way of recording and faithfully transmitting the message, the revealed law would not be transmitted efficiently - and therefore was geographically bound.

However, this is not a contradiction - am I missing some point here?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Some scientific questions:

71:15-16 God created the seven stories heavens and made the moon as a source of light in these heavens

The moon is the source of light?

I did a quick Google and at http://www.ahadees.com/english-surah-71.html

the translation of verses 14 to 20 is:
While He has made you in diverse stages.
Do you not see that Allah has made seven heavens one upon another?
And He illuminated therein the moon and has made the sun as a lamp.
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth like vegetation.
Then He will cause you to return there to and will bring you forth for the next time.
And Allah has made the earth for you as a bed spreading.
That you may walk through its wide ways.

'illuminating the moon' and 'sun as a lamp' seem to be in accordance with my understanding of science. (I'm not sure of which translation this is, so have given the web address). Can look into this more if you want.

Note v14 implies evolution (at least that is my take).

Flying Dutchman wrote:88: 20 The earth has been flattened.

And there are dozen more verses indicating very strongly that the earth is flat.

Again, same source as above v17 to 21:
Do they not look at the camel, how created?
And at the heaven, how it has been raised high?
And at the mountains, how they have been set up?
And at the earth, how it has been spread out?
Admonish you then; you are but an admonisher.


I don't think this needs any comment - earth is being used in contrast to mountains - hardly implying that the whole of the globe (planet Earth) is flat. Do you agree there is no contradiction here?

Flying Dutchman wrote:23:14 blessed Allah the best of all creators.

How many creators are there?

Only one creator of the universe or life, but everyone/thing that makes something is a creator of that thing. I see no contradiction in the verse which states God is the best creator.

Flying Dutchman wrote:86:7 says human sperms originate from between the back and the ribs

hmmm...

v5 to 7
Then let man consider, from what he is created.
Created from a gushing water.
Which comes out from between the loins and the ribs.

I've given an explanation of this verse in a previous post here - pointing out that 'back' isn't in the translations but that 'loins' is. Most of the seminal fluid does emanate from within the body and not the testes - but that said, the testes is also part of the loins.

cheers,
Shafique

The amazing quality of parables which is how most of the mythological scriptures are written, you can take it the way you want.

This creation thing would've still made sense if we were really made up of from gushing water.

As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved.

scot1870 wrote:As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved.

At least Islam is unique in having a scripture that claims to be the direct revelation of words spoken by God, and that these words will not be altered.

All other scriptures have been subject to change due to errors in transmission/copying, and none contain the claim to be the literal word of God that will not be changed.

Cheers,
Shafique

scot1870 wrote:As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved.

scot mate u wanna tell me how humans were made? u want to tell me how the animals were made? u want to tell me how the earth and the other planets in the universe in the bloody galaxy, the sun and the moon came into the existance???

how about u explaning to me how the blood flows through our body, how when we eat something it gets diguested by our stomaches, how our eyes can see as far as we can. Y are we all different like different cookies some white, some black, some brown. What about the fact that we all look different and have different characteristics. How did this all happen?? you want to tell me??

Yeah, the verse still applies. But the way I see this, is that first alcohol was only forbidden during prayers and obviously allowed outside that and only later completely forbidden. This is a contradiction no? Later interpretations ended this (completely banning alcohol), although still some Muslims are not convinced all alcohol is forbidden, only spirits. A matter of interpretation and translation I guess.

41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

4+2+2=8

No its not a contradiction, just something I was wondering about.

Wow, I have got another translation here, specifying the moon as the source of light, will check this one out...

I mean flat in the sense of not round.

shafique wrote:

scot1870 wrote:As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved.

At least Islam is unique in having a scripture that claims to be the direct revelation of words spoken by God, and that these words will not be altered.

All other scriptures have been subject to change due to errors in transmission/copying, and none contain the claim to be the literal word of God that will not be changed.

Cheers,
Shafique

that is simply part of your faith - but considered no fact.

have you ever heard of el hayat channel and hala sarhan's shows featuring muslim clerics trying to de-bunk some claims that the qura'an's full of contradictions?

quality viewing - highly recommended. sparked massive controversy, a public backlash, and a huge campaign to discredit her, her show, even personal attacks and death threats.



religion's a necessity of society my friend, you'll never grow spiritually if you blindly follow what you got raised on, you have your own brain, question life, experience life, think and grow spiritually through your thoughts.

most muslims, christians and jews all never grow outside of the box they grew up in, believing and taking in everythin their parents believed in... just purely out of faith - power to them, but thats as equal as someone telling you to jump off a cliff and you just doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1C0VDQb ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0l5u2Wh ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axZZ7rNT ... re=related

the man that caused all this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2TWfPvs ... re=related


take close attention to the cleric's reply when questioned...

Flying Dutchman wrote:Yeah, the verse still applies. But the way I see this, is that first alcohol was only forbidden during prayers and obviously allowed outside that and only later completely forbidden. This is a contradiction no? Later interpretations ended this (completely banning alcohol), although still some Muslims are not convinced all alcohol is forbidden, only spirits. A matter of interpretation and translation I guess.

Alcohol was not forbidden just for prayers - the verse is quite clear, what was forbidden was to go to prayers when not in control of one's senses. This verse is still applicable - and therefore hasn't been abrogated. One can be under the influence of other drugs other than alcohol, for example if one is in hospital - then this verse is still applicable today.

I agree, IF the verse had said 'you can drink alcohol, but make sure you are sober when you pray' then the verse forbidding alcohol would be contradictory (or an abrogation). But this is not the case.

Hence, no contradiction, because (as you say) the verse still applies.

Flying Dutchman wrote:41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

4+2+2=8

No its not a contradiction, just something I was wondering about.

As you say, it is not a contradiction - but it is an interesting aspect of the Quran. I'll have to dig out the Quranic references, but elsewhere the Quran clarifies that a day for God is not the same as 24 hours on earth (one rotation of the earth). 'Yaum' = 'day' is also used for a 'period' or 'aeon' or 'epoch' or even 'stages'. This is the same usage as in the OT, for example. Remind me if I forget, but I'll start a thread on the Quranic descriptions of creation when I get the refs.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
Wow, I have got another translation here, specifying the moon as the source of light, will check this one out...

I mean flat in the sense of not round.

About the moon - let me know if you need any more clarification. The advantage of the Quran is that we don't have to rely on translations and can go to the actual original arabic words, and consult dictionaries or native speakers for the meanings.

As for the earth being 'flat' - the context of the verse which talks about mountains etc does not lead me to the conclusion that the Quran is saying the earth is not a globe. As I stated before, it is clear to me that it is just a reference to the 'non-mountainous' regions of our land masses.

Other verses about the moon and sun (following their appointed orbits) point to the earth being a globe - and that certainly was the view of Islamic astronomers and navigators a long time before Copernicus was being told off by the church (but that is another discussion)

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:

scot1870 wrote:As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved.

At least Islam is unique in having a scripture that claims to be the direct revelation of words spoken by God, and that these words will not be altered.

All other scriptures have been subject to change due to errors in transmission/copying, and none contain the claim to be the literal word of God that will not be changed.

Cheers,
Shafique

that is simply part of your faith - but considered no fact.

No, sorry, I maintain that my last statement is fact. Happy to be corrected if you can show me another religious scripture that claims to be the final testament and claims to be the the literal word of God that won't be changed. I'm happy to change my mind if the evidence is presented though - perhaps I've overlooked such a scripture?

ebonics wrote:have you ever heard of el hayat channel and hala sarhan's shows featuring muslim clerics trying to de-bunk some claims that the qura'an's full of contradictions?

quality viewing - highly recommended. sparked massive controversy, a public backlash, and a huge campaign to discredit her, her show, even personal attacks and death threats.

No, I haven't heard. Is it in English?

I'll check out the links to You Tube when I'm at home and have the time.

ebonics wrote:
religion's a necessity of society my friend, you'll never grow spiritually if you blindly follow what you got raised on, you have your own brain, question life, experience life, think and grow spiritually through your thoughts.

most muslims, christians and jews all never grow outside of the box they grew up in, believing and taking in everythin their parents believed in... just purely out of faith - power to them, but thats as equal as someone telling you to jump off a cliff and you just doing it.

Agree with you 100% - well said.

I'm the first to decry 'blind faith'.

cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:

scot1870 wrote:As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved.

At least Islam is unique in having a scripture that claims to be the direct revelation of words spoken by God, and that these words will not be altered.

All other scriptures have been subject to change due to errors in transmission/copying, and none contain the claim to be the literal word of God that will not be changed.

Cheers,
Shafique

that is simply part of your faith - but considered no fact.

No, sorry, I maintain that my last statement is fact. Happy to be corrected if you can show me another religious scripture that claims to be the final testament and claims to be the the literal word of God that won't be changed. I'm happy to change my mind if the evidence is presented though - perhaps I've overlooked such a scripture?

no you're completely right, no other scripture claims so, or is said to be that.. but what is your proof that god spoke those words - it is only a matter of muslim faith, there's no concrete proof, and it could be anyone's words. its a matter of either you chosing to believe, blindly, which is the cornerstone of all muslims.... or not.

i chose the latter because frankly, i dont see god saying in his words some of the things said in the qur'an...

a perfect example, whats in the youtube above... thats 1 example out of possibly 100's that i can go through and list, but i wont open that can of worms now or here for that matter.

ebonics wrote:no you're completely right, no other scripture claims so, or is said to be that.. but what is your proof that god spoke those words - it is only a matter of muslim faith, there's no concrete proof, and it could be anyone's words. its a matter of either you chosing to believe, blindly, which is the cornerstone of all muslims.... or not.

Yes, I agree with you. To believe the claims of the Quran that it is the word of God is a matter of choice/faith.

ebonics wrote:i chose the latter because frankly, i dont see god saying in his words some of the things said in the qur'an...

And as the Quran says 'La iqra fi deen' 'there is no compulsion in matters of faith/religion' - I am happy to fight for your right to believe that the Quran is not God's word.

ebonics wrote:a perfect example, whats in the youtube above... thats 1 example out of possibly 100's that i can go through and list, but i wont open that can of worms now or here for that matter.

Interesting - I will have to watch and see.

My personal conviction is that I don't have enough faith to be an atheist - to believe in the infinitesimally small probability that we have been created by chance is a leap of faith too far for me. Believing in an intelligent being behind creation leads me to the logical (for me, at least) that He will also communicate with His creations and will give guidance.

Searching for this Guidance leads me to the fact that there are religions claiming to be from God. Examining those differing sets of beliefs leads me to the one that is universal and does not offend my logic (I refuse to believe that God is illogical, or that the answer to a theological question is 'you must have faith').

I fully support other's rights to believe in illogicalities - or that what I find illogical is perfectly logical to them.

So, if you don't believe in a God - then I admire the amount of your faith.


As to specific parts of the Quran that you think did not come from God - I'd be happy to give you my view on them, as I do not think anything in the Quran does offend logic (or is even contradictory to other verses).

Cheers,
Shafique

i believe in god - i think the god i believe in would be profoundly different to most though..

i dont believe in religion, or religion as we know it... its complicated


i maintain that faith is in one's self, i dont need a congregation of people, or an establishment, or rules for that matter to tell me how to lead my life.

i dont need anyone telling me what to do and what not to do, or how to do it, they're personal choices... which takes me back to the first point, religion is merely a necessity of society.


which god would tell you not to eat pig, to stop what you're doing and pray 5 times a day, god's not needy for your prayers... u can pray and think of god silently in your thoughts through your every day actions... just simple things like that make all the difference, rather than what you'd call a duty to pray - thats organised bigotry in my opinion.


but of course i never force my opinions on anyone, and i respect everyone that is slightly spiritual, regardless of race or religion....

ebonics wrote:
which god would tell you not to eat pig, to stop what you're doing and pray 5 times a day, god's not needy for your prayers... u can pray and think of god silently in your thoughts through your every day actions... just simple things like that make all the difference, rather than what you'd call a duty to pray - thats organised bigotry in my opinion.

A caring God who knows what is best for us - that is what I believe. Praying formally 5 times a day is the minimum - it is food for the soul.

Anyway- glad to hear that you do believe in God.

I can also understand your view that religion is not necessary and that we can all make the spiritual choices for ourselves. I don't agree with it as a practical concept, but you are free to choose this belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

this is where we agree to disagree...

but i will challenge how eating pig isnt good for us?

i will challenge how marrying 4 women is considered ok? million other things when it comes to islam, from the way they chose to spread it in the middle east, to the way they treat other religions today, to the way they chose to include religion with the rule of their nations...

its odd though that there's not much i can challenge in christianity, or judaism (except the pork thing)

and i definatly can never fault true buddhists - pound for pound, they're far more spiritually connected with life and their spirits than any other religion..

now back to the pork,
if god made the animal, it was made for our consumption... there's no reason why its out of bounds or forbidden.

i had a muslim friend that did everything, sex before marriage with his jewish girlfriend (jews and muslims can fall in love - they're a rather odd success story), drinks himself stupid, did every drug under the sun at some stage - but - would NEVER touch pork

and it was a source of HUGE arguments between us, i dont understand, what did the poor pig do to deserve this??

dare i say you never lived if you never had fresh spanish bacon and fried eggs on the coast of ibiza after a big night out on the island...



as for the prayer thing, most of my muslim friends consider it an inconvienience, they openly say that, yet still do it... do they really think god doesnt know what is in their heart when they pray?

im sure its better to think of him whilst doing your work - passivly - rather than stopping what you're doing with a frown to do what seems to be a forced practice...

i do like the idea of waking up early to pray though...

ebonics wrote:this is where we agree to disagree...

but i will challenge how eating pig isnt good for us?

On this point, God does not give detailed reasons. In the Quran it does say that pigs are unclean, but does not say this is the reason for pork to be banned.

ebonics wrote:i will challenge how marrying 4 women is considered ok? million other things when it comes to islam, from the way they chose to spread it in the middle east, to the way they treat other religions today, to the way they chose to include religion with the rule of their nations...

Where women outnumber men, for example after a war, polygamy is a better solution for society than the alternative. That is my opinion - and we do have examples of societal effects of such instances in the 20th century which we can look at and argue over.

I will join you in condemning muslims who are mis-using Islam, but my contention is that they are doing wrongs in spite of Islam, not because of it.

ebonics wrote:its odd though that there's not much i can challenge in christianity, or judaism (except the pork thing)

Ok - I presume you haven't read the Bible

ebonics wrote:and i definatly can never fault true buddhists - pound for pound, they're far more spiritually connected with life and their spirits than any other religion..

Interesting - how do you define a 'true Buddhist'? I actually believe in the original teachings of Gautama Buddha - but I disagree, say, with the current teachings of Tibetan Monks - such as the Dalai Lama. Some of his monks worshipped a deity that was aggressive, and there are instances of monks killing other monks over theology.

ebonics wrote:now back to the pork,
if god made the animal, it was made for our consumption... there's no reason why its out of bounds or forbidden.

That's an interesting theory. You would therefore have no problem in eating rats, cats, dogs or carrion etc.

Some people think its ok to eat other humans, others see it as a sign of respect to eat the deceased relatives (with the women eating the brains). Do you think religions are wrong to say God has forbidden cannibalism?

ebonics wrote:i had a muslim friend that did everything, love before marriage with his jewish girlfriend (jews and muslims can fall in love - they're a rather odd success story), drinks himself stupid, did every drug under the sun at some stage - but - would NEVER touch pork

Muslims are human. There were hypocrites among the first Muslims - so I am not surprised at this statement - but not sure what you are saying.. it just indicates that aversion to eating pork is something that is hard to overcome. I know Jews who don't normally eat pork, but will eat spare ribs (because spare ribs from other animals don't taste the same!)

ebonics wrote:and it was a source of HUGE arguments between us, i dont understand, what did the poor pig do to deserve this??

You're the one that wants to kill and eat the poor things!

ebonics wrote:dare i say you never lived if you never had fresh spanish bacon and fried eggs on the coast of ibiza after a big night out on the island...

Yes, you can dare say it. Dare I say you have not experienced true peace until you have reached a state where your soul is pleased with God and God is pleased with you?

ebonics wrote:as for the prayer thing, most of my muslim friends consider it an inconvienience, they openly say that, yet still do it... do they really think god doesnt know what is in their heart when they pray?

Empty prayer is just exercise. The Quran tells us to remember God when lying, sleeping, walking etc - so exactly what you're proposing.

I'll turn it round, what is wrong with taking out time 5 times a day to meditate and commune with one's creator?

ebonics wrote:im sure its better to think of him whilst doing your work - passivly - rather than stopping what you're doing with a frown to do what seems to be a forced practice...

I'm not sure it's better to not pray 5 times a day - but i can only speak from my personal experience.

ebonics wrote:i do like the idea of waking up early to pray though...

Cool! Good to end on a point we agree on.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique, im going to admit here, i dont usually meet bright minded muslims in my travels, but you're alright in my books..

as i said im not one to force my opinions on anyone, and you seem to do the same in a very respectful manner, and that i salute whole heartedly. if only all muslims took a page out of your book.

i will get back and take phrase by phrase and reply to you when im a little more sober its thursday night, and im drinking my sorrows away for my fiance is on another continent


but i have read the bible, start to finish, i am christian by label... but as i already mentioned, my mind has discovered many revelations since - not necessarily naturally induced.... but i am blessed for what i have been shown.

Do Muslims believe that God is the speaker in every passage of the Koran?

valkyrie wrote:Do Muslims believe that God is the speaker in every passage of the Koran?

Yes. Every word is the verbatim revelation from God.

This is explicit in the Quran - and actually is a fulfilment of a prophecy in the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 18.18 says:

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their bretheren; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Muslims believe that Muhammad fulfils this prophecy. Christians argue that Muhammad whilst being descended from Abraham (and therefore part of the brethren) is not eligible as he isn't an Israelite.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is 'yes'.

(this is also a unique feature of the Quran)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:On this point, God does not give detailed reasons. In the Quran it does say that pigs are unclean, but does not say this is the reason for pork to be banned.

why? since when is any animal "clean"? so are you telling me it doesnt say pork is banned?

shafique wrote:Where women outnumber men, for example after a war, polygamy is a better solution for society than the alternative. That is my opinion - and we do have examples of societal effects of such instances in the 20th century which we can look at and argue over.

I will join you in condemning muslims who are mis-using Islam, but my contention is that they are doing wrongs in spite of Islam, not because of it.

how is polygamy ok in any situation? i cease to understand this - and what is the situation when its vice versa? im sorry thats probably the most flawed hypocritical thing you could possibly justify that with...

ok so here in the UAE - males GRIEVLY outnumber females, according to your logic, its ok for women to marry several men because it is the best solution for society.... if the answer to that is no, thats hypocricy of the highest degree... unless of course, islam openly admits that males and females are not equal (which it does) - to that i will leave you to comment, as i have nothing to say, it says it all.

shafique wrote:
Ok - I presume you haven't read the Bible

read it many times over, please, raise any question you wish.

shafique wrote:


Interesting - how do you define a 'true Buddhist'? I actually believe in the original teachings of Gautama Buddha - but I disagree, say, with the current teachings of Tibetan Monks - such as the Dalai Lama. Some of his monks worshipped a deity that was aggressive, and there are instances of monks killing other monks over theology.

the buddhists i met would scold me for swatting a fly... let alone kill someone, you need to remember, some things are personal choices, but essentially what you outline there, are fudamentally against everything they believe in.

thats equal to me bringing out the never-ending list of terrorist acts that muslims seem to carry out all around the world... then turn around and say we're a religion of peace and forgiveness - like they forgot how they opened all of north africa with the edge of their sword, with very little peace and very little forgiveness... and if your history book tells you otherwise, you're reading the wrong ones.

shafique wrote:
That's an interesting theory. You would therefore have no problem in eating rats, cats, dogs or carrion etc.

Some people think its ok to eat other humans, others see it as a sign of respect to eat the deceased relatives (with the women eating the brains). Do you think religions are wrong to say God has forbidden cannibalism?

im happy to try anything once, i ate horse, gazelle, camel, frogs, snails.. some people eat cats and dogs, some eat rats in asia... everyone eats what they please - i dont see the problem in that, or your point with the first statement for that matter..

cannibalism is a different kettle of fish.

shafique wrote:
Muslims are human. There were hypocrites among the first Muslims - so I am not surprised at this statement - but not sure what you are saying.. it just indicates that aversion to eating pork is something that is hard to overcome. I know Jews who don't normally eat pork, but will eat spare ribs (because spare ribs from other animals don't taste the same!)

nothing compares to pork

shafique wrote:
You're the one that wants to kill and eat the poor things!

see above - plus there are squillions of them and they're farmed regularly - i refuse to have shark fin soup or any whale products.. i do have a heart.

shafique wrote:
Yes, you can dare say it. Dare I say you have not experienced true peace until you have reached a state where your soul is pleased with God and God is pleased with you?

as i said im quite sure that the god i think of, the god i have experienced, and the god that i believe in, is fundamentally very different to yours and mosts.. people fear god.. i dont see any reason why anyone would "FEAR" god, my god is a god of love, forgiveness, and is a model for everything good in life - hence god will always be pleased with me, i have never done anything greavily terrible to have god frown down upon me for any reason..

god forgives sinners to killers and everything in between...

shafique wrote:I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him

with all due respect, this basically could be, anyone and everyone... it specifically says from their bretheren, is specifically says words in his mouth - jesus talked as he and god is one and the same - a huge argument when it comes to any muslim admitting that.

but the same way you fundamentally believe on blind faith that the kuran is god's own word - and i dont (that verse never said anything about a book, but mouth - i dont see muhammad fullfilling that in any way)

i also believe that jesus is God, and you dont

and therefore that statement above, points to jesus, and not muhammad - to me....