Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals?

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Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 01, 2010
An interesting post worth reading.....and thinking about:

Many are now aware that the Koran—that is, Allah’s word—permits, not just polygamy, but forced concubinage (sex with captive women), according to Koran 4:3: “Marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice, then only one, or what your right hands possess [captive women taken in war].” There is, however, an interesting, and very telling, linguistic aspect to this verse that is often overlooked—or intentionally obscured. The Arabic states: “Ankahu [marry]…ma [what] malakat [possess] aymankum [your right hands].”

Oddly enough, the Arabic relative pronoun used to indicate these captive women is "ma": ma malakat aymankum, literally, “what your right hands possess” (see Shakir’s acclaimed English translation which most literally translates this). In Arabic, when one refers to a rational being (i.e., a human), the word used is man, which means “who(ever)”; ma, on the other hand, refers only to things or animals—trees, rocks, dogs and cats—very much similar to the English “it.” Thus, in proper Arabic the phrase might have been man malakat aymankum: “who(ever) your rights hands possess.”

For long I assumed this was but a stylistic matter. However, the highly revered Islamic scholar al-Qurtubi (d.1273) also makes this observation in vol. 5, p.12 of his authoritative 20-volume Tafsir Al Koran (Exegesis of the Koran). He points out that members of the human race should be referred to with man (who), whereas only “inanimate objects” or “brute beasts” should be referred to with ma (what).

Does this suggest that the Koran’s Arabic—touted as the most perfect Arabic—is flawed? Of course, no Muslim would allow for that. Nor need they, as this phenomenon (portraying concubines as non-human) accords well with a number of hadiths that place females and animals in the same category. Musnad Ibn Hanbal (vol. 2, p. 2992), for example, records Muhammad saying “Women, dogs, and donkeys annul a man’s prayer.” Indeed, in Qurtubi’s same Tafsir (vol.15, p.172), after examining such hadiths, he writes, "A Woman may be likened to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.”


http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7425/isla ... ls-animals

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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 01, 2010
You pasted the same extract on Mar 1:

http://www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/islam-and-concubinage-master-and-slave-girl-relationships-t40721.html#p328519

Mr Ibrahim's details are here:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/raymon ... -cash-cow/

And your track record of choice of experts speaks for itself:
dubai-politics-talk/fox-news-let-down-t42289.html


Moral - check all references and that 'experts' are what they say they are when confronted with loons quoting passages (or statistics). ;)

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Shafique
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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 01, 2010
It's a pretty damning statement - the Koran refers to women captives as if they were non-humans (objects).

But anyone who is familiar with the Koran and Islam already knows that women are on a lower pecking order than men are.

:(
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 01, 2010
Ahh, loons and their quaint beliefs, aren't they cute?

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 01, 2010
Well, the references are from the Koran.

So, we just need to check the Koran to see what it says.

Didn't you say you could read Arabic?
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 02, 2010
LOL, I love your fantasy world - you can't even keep an imagined image of me straight in your head! ;)

Just let us know when you find any credible scholar that agrees with the linguistic nonsense 'cash-cow' Ibrahim has produced.

Given you posted the same exact article in March - I guess your trawling of the loon websites hasn't uncovered another bottom-feeder that backs up mr 'I-wanna-be-a-scholar'.

I mean it even looks like he's abandonned loon-central 'jihadwatch' (see comments in):
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/raymon ... -cash-cow/

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 02, 2010
Image

Nope, no fantasy world.

I asked you on this forum if you read Arabic and you said yes.

Regardless of whether you can or cannot read Arabic, it is interesting to note your efforts of burying this story.

What's the matter? Afraid to find out the truth ?
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 02, 2010
Whose burying the story? When did I deny that I read Arabic (and speak a little too, if you ask)?

I'm just laughing that you think that my reading Arabic will make Ibrahim's theories any more credible?

When you get any credible expert that agrees with Ibrahim's silly theory, let us know. In the meantime, perhaps you can just bear in mind you've posted his article twice now.

BTW - I love the cartoon of Bob!

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 02, 2010
*Yawn*

Since when do you need a scholar to tell you the meaning of certain Arabic words?

Raymond points out that 'ma' and 'man' have certain meanings - ma is similar to the English equivalent of 'it' where 'man' is the equivalent to 'he' or 'she'.

He then explains that passages in the Koran uses the pronoun 'ma' to refer to slave-girls/concubines whereas the Koran uses he/she ('man') to refer to people in other passages.

Meaning, the Koran de-humanizes slave-girls/concubines and places them in the same category as animals and other possessions - they are livestock.

Now, since you can read Arabic, do you need a 'scholar' to confirm what Raymond is saying?
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 03, 2010
Yawn.

What part of
shafique wrote:Just let us know when you find any credible scholar that agrees with the linguistic nonsense 'cash-cow' Ibrahim has produced.

..confused you?

Was it the 'linguistic nonsense' part?

Surely if cash-cow was right some other Arabic speaking orientalist islamophobe would have pointed this out before (or since).

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 03, 2010
So you now need a scholar to explain to you the 'clear' passages of the Koran?

I thought this was pretty straightforward. You would confirm the Koran uses 'ma' in the passages referring to slave girls and you would then double check from any Arabic lexicon that 'ma' is the English equivalent to 'it'.

Now you need scholars and imams to tell you what the Koran says.

I guess the Koran isn't all that clear after all.
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 03, 2010
I'm not asking you to produce a credible scholar to explain the Quran, just one that agrees with Ibrahim's linguistic nonsense.

You should really try and read what is written.

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 03, 2010
Ok, I just checked - Raymond faithfully reproduced the phonetic Arabic in his post:


Wa-in khiftum alla tuqsitoo fee alyatama fainkihoo ma taba lakum mina alnnisa-i mathna wathulatha warubaAAa fa-in khiftum alla taAAdiloo fawahidatan aw ma malakat aymanukum thalika adna alla taAAooloo


You can confirm above by comparing the two.

Now we just need to find a lexicon to look up 'ma'.
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 03, 2010
Yes, you do that and then find a credible expert that agrees with Ibrahim's linguistic nonsense in the article you quoted.

Good luck with that.

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 03, 2010
Referring to something as linguistic nonsense doesn't fly with me.

If you're fluent enough in Arabic or grammar, then you can explain why referring to slave-girls using an English equivalent of 'it' is nonsense - in other words, what is grammatically incorrect with what Raymond wrote - we both agree that 'ma' is used in the sentence and that 'ma' is a pronoun used to refer to non-humans.

If you are not fluent in either, then you don't have the authority to refer to something as nonsense, now do you?
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 03, 2010
I am not asking you to believe me or not.

Try and keep up.

Please produce one other credible person that agrees with Ibrahim's linguistic nonsense. When you do, then perhaps we can take this further.

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Re: Are slave-girls in Islam equivalent to animals? Jul 03, 2010
Wow, snowflake. Getting a little demanding, aren't you?

LoL.

What part of my last post did you not understand?

Calling something nonsense because you said so doesn't work with me.

Raymond, unlike you, does have an educational background in the subjects he writes about.

So, yes. He is more than qualified to write about Koranic grammar uses.

Either show that he is wrong or admit that the Koran refers to slave-girls as objects.
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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 04, 2010
I know YOU want desperately to believe Ibrahim is an expert, but given that you also classify Spencer, 'elder' and ficticious Imam's as scholars too - it is not surprising you think 'cash cow' is speaking sense.

Instead of repeating your beliefs about Ibrahim's scholarship - just provide one other credible person who agrees with his silly theory.

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Re: Are Slave-girls In Islam Equivalent To Animals? Jul 04, 2010
shafique wrote:You pasted the same extract on Mar 1:

http://www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/islam-and-concubinage-master-and-slave-girl-relationships-t40721.html#p328519

Mr Ibrahim's details are here:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/raymon ... -cash-cow/

And your track record of choice of experts speaks for itself:
dubai-politics-talk/fox-news-let-down-t42289.html


Moral - check all references and that 'experts' are what they say they are when confronted with loons quoting passages (or statistics). ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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