The Business Cycle Theory - Economics

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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 25, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
RobbyG wrote:After all the talk that I did in this topic, you havent even come close to fully understand what I've said.
Arguing further doesn't make sense to me. You can bring a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink it.

I'll leave it at that.


Rob I read and am trying to understand as you see from my questions but please avoid emotional conclusions.

We don't discuss the Symbol of the Faith here, but economic theory only.


Ya know Chief, I'm human too. :wink:

As for the symbols of faith that are constantly mixed on DF, its getting a bit of a nuisance really. Religions never brought prosperity and people here are still preaching as if its salvation. I assure you, salvation comes from within and the benevolence after obtaining individual succes.

God, do I loath religious nonsense in serious stuff. Can't help it, but it wrecks my appetite to discuss further. :idea:

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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 25, 2010
God, do I loath religious nonsense in serious stuff. Can't help it, but it wrecks my appetite to discuss further.

Good Lord you do have a God...
What nuisance you're talking about eh...
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 25, 2010
Berrin wrote:
God, do I loath religious nonsense in serious stuff. Can't help it, but it wrecks my appetite to discuss further.

Good Lord you do have a God...
What nuisance you're talking about eh...


the use of the word 'God' is a matter of speech. Humor isn't a problem. Public religious crap is.

We secularists made religion a private issue, where different people with different viewpoints don't have to get annoyed by a religious doctrine. Thats how we in the West look at things. Public and Private separated.

What religion you use in private, is all up to you. Thats why the discussion about the use of interest rates is such utter nonsense. Its just how you regulate consumer lending that makes the difference.

Thats what I'm talking about.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
RobbyG wrote:
Ya know Chief, I'm human too. :wink:

As for the symbols of faith that are constantly mixed on DF, its getting a bit of a nuisance really. Religions never brought prosperity and people here are still preaching as if its salvation. I assure you, salvation comes from within and the benevolence after obtaining individual succes.

God, do I loath religious nonsense in serious stuff. Can't help it, but it wrecks my appetite to discuss further. :idea:


So far it looks like a faith for me. Could you give me a hint about practical implementation? Was it in the USA from the end of WWII to the Vietnam war (golden standard) or in the UK during Thatcher and then Reiganomica in the US?
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Difficult to tell, since global economy was not as interconnected as today.

I think the conversion from war industry (WWII) into industrial manufacturing was quite a prosperous and low regulatory environment.

Absent the Vietnam war, which was very inflationary, the increase in living standards was excellent. The Baby boom generation did well and lifted America to new highs in overal wealth and standards of living.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Red Chief wrote:Could you give me a hint about practical implementation? Was it in the USA from the end of WWII to the Vietnam war (golden standard) or in the UK during Thatcher and then Reiganomica in the US?


I delved into history and found a great example of economic growth in the United States after the Civil War (during wartime, fiat paper currencies are more liquid to fund wars), when the US went back on the gold standard in 1879 and had some 20 years of continous real economic growth rates averaging 4 percent a year.

This sound money policy led to real savings and investments, without manipulating interest rates, which led to more production and productivity improvements, visible in lower prices and thus more bang for the buck.

Among the Austrian economists, this period is considered one of the best periods of sound money policy.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
RobbyG wrote:
I delved into history and found a great example of economic growth in the United States after the Civil War (during wartime, fiat paper currencies are more liquid to fund wars), when the US went back on the gold standard in 1879 and had some 20 years of continous real economic growth rates averaging 4 percent a year.

This sound money policy led to real savings and investments, without manipulating interest rates, which led to more production and productivity improvements, visible in lower prices and thus more bang for the buck.

Among the Austrian economists, this period is considered one of the best periods of sound money policy.


Well. How came the Great Depression? You told me about business cycles but gave no remedy how to go throught a crisis which is a natural part of the business cycle.

On the other hand I'd like to support your finding. The first trade union appeares in the US only in 1911. Even after that the labour in US wasn't unionised a long time. So labour force was very flexible but it didn't help to avoid the Great Depression.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Red Chief wrote:Well. How came the Great Depression? You told me about business cycles but gave no remedy how go throught a crisis which is natural part of the business cycle.

On the other hand I'd like to support your finding. The first trade union appeares in the US only in 1911. Even after that the labour in US wasn't unionised a long time. So labour force was very flexible but it didn't help to avoid the Great Depression.


The Great Depression was caused by the circumstances created before the Crash in the stockmarket, starting in the US during the early twenties. Also, regulation was increasingly burdensome on the private sector, which led to price agreements between the big corporations.

At the end of the 19th Century and the beginning of the 20th century, the influential Marx philosophy led politicians to protect consumers from the corporations, like the dominating railroads and their hegemony. In 1887 the Interstate Commerce Act was passed, regulation that was meant to protect consumers by increasing competition, but more competition would also have another effect that the regulation didn't control, which was price agreements and rebates. Not effective regulation as you can read below:

The Interstate Commerce Act was passed as a result of public concern with the growing power and wealth of corporations, particularly railroads, during the late nineteenth century. Railroads had become the principal form of transportation for both people and goods, and the prices they charged and the practices they adopted greatly influenced individuals and businesses. In some cases, the railroads abused their power as a result of too little competition, as when they charged scandalously high fares in places where they exerted monopoly control. Railroads also grouped together to form trusts that fixed rates at artificially high levels.

Too much competition also caused problems, as when railroads granted rebates to large businesses in order to secure exclusive access to their patronage. Such a rebate prevented other railroads from serving those businesses. Larger railroads sometimes lowered prices so much that they drove other carriers out of business, after which they raised prices dramatically. Also, railroads often charged more for short hauls than for long hauls, a scheme that effectively discriminated against smaller businesses. These schemes resulted in bankruptcy for many rail carriers and their customers.


As you can see, the corporations always find ways to go around regulation. The more regulation fails, the more is introduced to cover the loopholes, making business very expensive. Therefore, not all regulation is effective regulation. Thats one example.

Also influential was the collaboration of the JP Morgans and the Rockefellers of the early twentieth century, who wanted access to easy credit for business opportunities. By effectively lobbying politicians in Congress, they managed to create approval for an independant bankers association that resulted in the independant Federal Reserve Bank, the FED, leaving Congress out of the decision making of monetary policy in the US. The FED was created in 1913. Since then, inflation is becoming more widespread.
Over nearly 100 years of its existence, inflation has eroded 95 percent of the initial purchasing power of the US dollar. However, the purpose of the FED was to maintain price stability and full employment. In reality, markets and thus prices became increasingly more volatile by creation of debt.

This is what Austrian Economist see from a familiar influence of intellectuals (like Marx) in society.

Marx is responsible for almost all white collar crimes. The politician responded first with the Interstate Commerce Act regulating commerce, to prevent what Marx said would happen that was not realistic. Next came the Sherman Anti-Trust Act that also sought to prevent the consolidation of business reducing the number of employers. This came to be followed by the Income Tax in 1909, that was politically justified by Marxism targeting the evil "rich" who threatened capitalism. All of this legislation was enacted and. the huge costs to the taxpayer that is now the average man, was all -created based upon Marxism. Sometimes, we just forget.
Economic ideas do move nations. Sad economic philosophies have cost millions of lives, destroyed families, and suffered generations to be deprived of liberties. As you listen to both Republicans and to the Democrats, you will notice, they all have prejudged Wall Street (2008) blaming them and once again resorting to Marxism based philosophy. They are anointing all those who work in the financial industry as the "evil doers" that have caused the collapse.


While in fact it is sad and abundant regulation that drives business to unethical standards. Effective regulation is a process that requires a deductive mindset, to really understand what regulation will do the a sector and to the human mindset of managers in bypassing such regulations in an industry. Not all is what it seems and politicians can be very naieve in accepting a philosophy that pleases their (sometimes irrational) constituents. The FED lowers the cost by fixing interest rates too low and creates a sector that seeks returns while disturbing the natural business cycle. (2008)

Back to 1930's: T
he Great depression was a clear result of the FED, lowering requirements for credit expansion and this led to the private sector borrowing, both individuals and private corporations, resulting in a loose money credit boom. When the populus found out that bankers had not been covering all their money by gold, they came to collect it in bankruns. There are stories about bankers being pulled on the streets, getting hanged.

The lack of confidence resulted in a chain of events in the international business cycle:

1. Debt liquidation and distress selling
2. Contraction of the money supply as bank loans are paid off
3. A fall in the level of asset prices
4. A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies
5. A fall in profits
6. A reduction in output, in trade and in employment.
7. Pessimism and loss of confidence
8. Hoarding of money
9. A fall in nominal interest rates and a rise in deflation adjusted interest rates

This combined with proctectionist policies and Keynesian stimulus measures to revive aggregate demand by increasing government spending (public) made the private sector starving from capital that was needed to keep output going at lower prices. Instead, the government sucked up the savings liquidity by issuing bonds to pay for huge public projects like the Hoover Dam and the New Deal projects during the Roosevelt adminstration, effectively prolonging the depression by shifting the demand pattern of consumers.

If the government demand for domesting savings (for stimulus measures) were absent, the goods prices would have declined also, but manufacturing output would be in place as consumers would be able to buy those goods for less. This would be a more transient correction of the economy. Instead, demand dropped precipitately and output (GDP) dropped 60 percent resulting in 25 percent unemployment in the US. Some nations even 33 percent. In Germany, this led to the rise of national socialism and Hitler.

The Austrian economists and philosophers like Ludwig von Mises were convinced that government intervention in the private sector was disturbing in the recovery process and would postpone the economic recovery.

In conclusion, the real cause of the Great Depression was the role of the Federal Reserve and the bankers that created the credit boom of the 1920's. The bank leverage and lack of confidence resulted in a fire sale of assets creating a downward spiral, combined with ineffective regulation and protectionism in some countries that halted international trade. The Keynesian stimulus measures that followed to keep employment up, were detrimental to recovery, because the demand pattern shifted so sharply that the private sector was unable to adapt to the new and lower demand pattern that the stimulus works induced. Output collapsed and did not recover until the second world war.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Rob, I think I can read properly. So don't cut and paste the same statement about Marx once more. I read the book of the Austrian Economist.

You are absolutely right many countries use diferent remedies but nobody Hayek's one. Even so anti-socialistic country like the UK dropped that. Why?

I asked the question about the Great Depression because it followed the great boom you described as a pattern of a business cycle. So I repeat the question: how should we go through the crisis, which is the part of a business cycle?
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Ow I see what you mean.

Well, the (volatile) boom bust scenario is only introduced by easy money policies. The boom is the result of fixing interest rates too low for too long (inflationary), while the bust is the result of a sudden lack of confidence due to a disturbance in the business cycle, created by the FED policies.

So, if we (somehow) could return to a gold standard, where money is 100% backed by gold, then you can't have a boom bust scenario as volatile as we had in 1929 or in 2008. Gold requires restraint to spending habits.

Just consider that example I placed earlier about that room with a fixed amount of money in circulation. Four corners in that room, doors closed. If an entrepreneur finds a gold mine in one corner of the room, money HAS to come from other corners of the room to fund that mining boom. The corner of the gold boom will experience price inflation and the other corners of the room will experience (some) price deflation.

Hence the total amount of money is inelastic, resulting in more gradual price changes (price stability) leaving a cyclical effect in the sectors of an economy. If you open the door in that room scenario I gave, you would have a cyclical effect in the world economy also.
So economic growth is obtained by increased consumer demand for goods by population growth, production ramps up, goods prices go down, productivity goes up and purchasing power increases aswell. Investments are still made by loans that come purely from savings and not by borrowings created by expansion of the money supply (monetary inflation).

Sound money policies and it requires restraint for politicians in spending habits. With a fiat money system like we have in place now, there hasn't been a balanced budget since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 except for the Clinton administration. Most politicians rely on inflation to erode the debt obligations away. All empires will eventually go down on the knees this way. The US is no different.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Rob, I thought that Maynard Keynes lived and wrote his works in the time of gold standard. Did I lose something? It was the time of the Great Depression.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Red Chief wrote:Rob, I thought that Maynard Keynes lived and write his works in the time of gold standard. Did I lose something? It was the time of the Great Depression.


Thats is true, but that doesn't mean he saw everything that Hayek saw back then. The UK reintroduced the exchange rate mechanism of the former gold standard, which was horrible in a bad economy. The timing of reintroducing sound money standard increased the contraction of credit during the depression.

Listen to what Hayek says about the UK and Keynes influence that he described in the General Theory book.

Also, listen very good to what Hayek says at the very end of the video. Then you understand the influence of intellectuals in society. Keynes died shortly before he could explain his followers what should be done if inflation were to return, after fighting deflation first in the US... He died before he could write his views down.

Hayek explains his conversation with Keynes:
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Sorry that I inserted Maynard Keynes there. I'd like to emohasize that at that time the gold standard was in action and it didn't help.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Red Chief wrote:Sorry that I inserted Maynard Keynes there. I'd like to emohasize that at that time the gold standard was in action and it didn't help.


Thats my point I made in the last post. Do you read understand what I was saying there?

You can't return to a tighter monetary policy (like under a gold standard) in an bad economy. It will crash even harder then.

From about 1921, Britain had started a slow economic recovery from the war and the subsequent slump. But in April 1925 the Conservative Chancellor, Winston Churchill, on advice from the Bank of England, restored the Pound Sterling to the gold standard at its prewar exchange rate of 4.86 US dollars. This made the pound convertible to its value in gold, but at a level that made British exports more expensive on world markets. The economic recovery was immediately slowed. To offset the effects of the high exchange rate, the export industries tried to cut costs by lowering workers' wages, provoking the General Strike of May 1926[5].
The industrial areas spent the rest of the 1920s in recession, and these industries received little investment or modernisation. Throughout the 1920s unemployment stayed at a steady one million.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depr ... ed_Kingdom
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
I read the lame excuse. On the first stage some problems were possible but then prices and inelastic stuff should have automatically corrected everything. It carried on decades and got worse and worse.
It was a mistake as you said. Probably it could not have been.

By the way, thanks for your reference on Hayek's interview. I wasn't impressed but another interview of Noam Chomsky in the same section was worth my time. What is your opinion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Tq4VE8 ... re=related
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
I totally agree with Chomsky.

the American's use the word socialism in a more derogatory term, while the traditional meaning of socialism is ownership of production. In my opinion very closely related to essence of capitalism, as in ownership of property and control of your own life. I don't like the corporate or crony capitalistic model in the US though.

Soviet Union combination of communism and socialism from a centrally planned perspective was horrible in my view. What do you think?
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
So, if we (somehow) could return to a gold standard, where money is 100% backed by gold, then you can't have a boom bust scenario as volatile as we had in 1929 or in 2008.


What do you think will change if paper money takes the value of Gold?
The biggest problem of the capitalist system is the financial market which is created on mere purpose of serving speculation where i.e. in stock market one bets on what will happen in the real economy, so you can buy shares where you are essentially betting on the profits of a company.

Derivatives have caused huge instability since the day they were invented. You are not betting on the real economy but betting what will happen in this parallel financial economy. Hence instead of putting money at the disposal of a new business or investing it or even spending it aiding wealth distribution, money revolves around financial speculators, hence when they make losses this would effect the real economy in terms of lending and profits etc. The high oil prices have a lot to do with financial speculators as well as one of the reasons for the credit crunch crisis.

Remember the fundemantel reason for Boom and bust is the ideal Capitalism attempts to achieve in society, that of perpetual economic growth. Hence whatever is needed to ensure economic growth more then the year before, debt and many other tools are used which are highly risky.

Does Hayek say anything about eliminating speculation and parallel financial economy. These are the essentials of capitalism, I don’t think one can expect them to be ignored in real sense..
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
RobbyG wrote:Soviet Union combination of communism and socialism from a centrally planned perspective was horrible in my view. What do you think?


I am interested in another point that SU system is as horrible as US. The wage slavary exists in both systems and US one got more and more close to SU. We should wait for the rebellion of clerks.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Berrin wrote:Remember the fundemantel reason for Boom and bust is the ideal Capitalism attempts to achieve in society, that of perpetual economic growth. Hence whatever is needed to ensure economic growth more then the year before, debt and many other tools are used which are highly risky.


Good point you reised but as the growth cannot be infinite the war needs to cut capacities?
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Berrin wrote:
So, if we (somehow) could return to a gold standard, where money is 100% backed by gold, then you can't have a boom bust scenario as volatile as we had in 1929 or in 2008.


What do you think will change if paper money takes the value of Gold?
The biggest problem of the capitalist system is the financial market which is created on mere purpose of serving speculation where i.e. in stock market one bets on what will happen in the real economy, so you can buy shares where you are essentially betting on the profits of a company.


If you go onto a gold standard, you withold from government the possibility of creating inflation. The value of the currency would be determined by a fixed amount of dollars for an ounce of gold. Say 2000 dollars for one oz of gold. This solves the problem of monetary inflation, and your earned dollar keeps its purchasing power over time.

Derivatives have caused huge instability since the day they were invented. You are not betting on the real economy but betting what will happen in this parallel financial economy. Hence instead of putting money at the disposal of a new business or investing it or even spending it aiding wealth distribution, money revolves around financial speculators, hence when they make losses this would effect the real economy in terms of lending and profits etc. The high oil prices have a lot to do with financial speculators as well as one of the reasons for the credit crunch crisis.


Derivitives should be regulated on clearing exchanges and used only for hedging purposes. Speculation can have a function for providing liquidity when position limits are applied, but doesn't fulfill a broader function in society, besides employment of a few. The same regulation should apply to commodities, precious metals, strategic metals, in my opinion.

Remember the fundemantel reason for Boom and bust is the ideal Capitalism attempts to achieve in society, that of perpetual economic growth. Hence whatever is needed to ensure economic growth more then the year before, debt and many other tools are used which are highly risky.


That is the flaw of capitalism. Perpetual (linear) economic growth is impossible to archieve. American's have a lot to learn from the cyclical element of mother nature. One day they'll understand, I hope...

Does Hayek say anything about eliminating speculation and parallel financial economy. These are the essentials of capitalism, I don’t think one can expect them to be ignored in real sense..


I have to look deeper into that. From a philosophical perspective, as long as it doesn't harm someone else, or the environment, then its to your liberty. So if speculation would provide a decent argument for providing liquidity, then I would say that its allowed, if strict position limits were used and monitored. Otherwise, it has no real function besides providing an income to a trader.

Capitalism isn't perfect. I rather try to find the best combination of systems and bond them together, as far as beneficial for society.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
RobbyG wrote:Soviet Union combination of communism and socialism from a centrally planned perspective was horrible in my view. What do you think?


I am interested in another point that SU system is as horrible as US. The wage slavary exists in both systems and US one got more and more close to SU. We should wait for the rebellion of clerks.


I agree but the US pays its clerks way to much to rebel on their employer. Wait until the proletariat starts rising to the occassion. All hell breaks loose with that many guns in circulation.

Have you seen the news in the US lately?
Since the health care bill has passed, there have been death threats against Republican and Democrate politicians and the first bullets have been fired. Public workers are getting affraid. It has already started to get out of hand.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
Red Chief wrote:
Berrin wrote:Remember the fundemantel reason for Boom and bust is the ideal Capitalism attempts to achieve in society, that of perpetual economic growth. Hence whatever is needed to ensure economic growth more then the year before, debt and many other tools are used which are highly risky.


Good point you reised but as the growth cannot be infinite the war needs to cut capacities?


You warmongerer! :D

You still haven't understood the cyclical element of the business cycle. I have described it in this topic with great effort.

The price system coordinates time with interest. If interest rates go up, consumption and/or and business expansion both go down, production output declines and supply and demand coordinate the price over time. Its cyclical.
In the mean time, another industry might attract capital where production goes up and the opposite happens.

Its a free market system where money flows where its needed.

We don't need war Chief! :mrgreen:
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
RobbyG wrote:

In the mean time, another industry might attract capital where production goes up and the opposite happens.

Its a free market system where money flows where its needed.

We don't need war Chief! :mrgreen:


Ok. Which industry are you talking about? Be realist. There has been no growing industry since 2000 in the US.

The situation got worse when all money from emerging marckets flooded the US after crisis in the Far East/Russia and Brazil in 1997-1998. Not all capital could be employed. Is it outside the theory?
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 26, 2010
CHINA and other emerging markets.

The world has more rooms and doors open (economic analogy) than one, Chief. The production factors in cheap labour countries are more favorable then in the US, because of its policies.

Since we don't work on a global gold standard, but rather on a system with different floating currencies, fixed exchange rates and Zimbabwe like monies, you can see how difficult it is to understand all the factors in the world economy.

Its numerous flows of capital in and out of those economies every day. One nation runs a trade surplus in manufacturing now and the other trading partner runs a deficit in a particular sector and sofort. All sectors combined, in aggregate, this makes up your total economy and the industry adjusts to the market factors of supply and demand for its goods.

Its a big balancing act of trade just like mother nature cycles the weather around our planet to keep the temperature the way it is.

Problem is, mankind likes to intervene and disturb the monetary system, so we have crashes and depressions. Lets hope our scientists stay off the manipulation of our weather system, or we are doomed for an ice age correction in the future... :wink:
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 27, 2010
If you go onto a gold standard, you withold from government the possibility of creating inflation.

O yeah,In regards to Inflation fluctuations in the amount of gold that is mined could cause inflation, if there is an increase, or deflation if there is a decrease.

Derivitives should be regulated on clearing exchanges and used only for hedging purposes. Speculation can have a function for providing liquidity when position limits are applied, but doesn't fulfill a broader function in society, besides employment of a few. The same regulation should apply to commodities, precious metals, strategic metals, in my opinion.


Oh yeah, yeah yeah yeah...

A common strategy speculators are using desperate for more profitable investments amid the
US sub‐prime disaster is to take futures positions selling ‘short’. By selling a commodity or any
financial instrument short in essence this is betting on the price of the commodity or financial
paper to fall. Short‐sellers do not own anything they sell ‐ they borrow them from pension
funds and insurers. A common example is where; a hedge fund would borrow a million shares
in Megabank for a fee. It would then sell those million shares at the prevailing market price of
£8 a share, making £8 million in total. The hedge fund is betting and hoping that Megabank's
share price would then fall. If it falls ‐ to £4 a share the hedge fund then buys a million shares
for £4m and returns them to the lender. This means that the hedge fund has banked a real
cash profit of £4m. Lehman Brothers, the investment bank, has estimated that fuel is 30%
overpriced because of an influx of money into the oil market from investment funds. It
believes that hot money accounts for between $20 to $30 of the recent increase in oil prices
and that about $40 billion has been invested in the sector so far this year — equal to all the
money pumped into oil last year.


Any thoughts and ideas you have to stop this from ever happening again?

From a philosophical perspective, as long as it doesn't harm someone else, or the environment, then its to your liberty. So if speculation would provide a decent argument for providing liquidity, then I would say that its allowed, if strict position limits were used and monitored. Otherwise, it has no real function besides providing an income to a trader.

What liberty? What liquidity? What income? You contradict yourself when you're talking and complaining about boom and bust then.....
Prior to the development of Derivatives most speculators brought shares in order to take advantage of the dividend that was paid out (the profit per share). Hence most banks brought shares and held onto them in order to take advantage of the profits, hence when a company issues a profits warning, speculators, banks, hedge funds would sell their shares as they would not receive the original level of dividend that they thought.

Hence the share price at the time was a good reflection of the standing of a company, this is no longer the case any more and such fundamentals are not what characterise the financial markets. Now speculators buy shares in the hope the share piece will rise and they take profits from that, paying little care to the profits of a business, this is why it was possible for dot.com companies to have huge share price rises even though they were not forecasted to make profits for up to 10 years. George Soro’s explained this in his new book ‘The New Paradigm for Financial Markets: The Credit Crisis of 2008 and What It Means.’ He essentially highlighted that share prices have become detached from the company they were supposedly meant to represent, so he argues that the real economy and the financial economy follow two different sets of fundamentals not the same anymore.

Through this dismemberment Derivatives developed, now derivatives are just a paper which gets its value from the thing it is ‘derived’ from. Hence you can bet on Oil prices, Commodities, interest rates and even currency exchange rates. Although companies use derivatives to hedge against adverse price movements, the derivatives market is worth over $480 trillion for comparison the worldwide bond market is estimated at $45 trillion, the size of the world’s stock markets is estimated at $51 trillion. However 95% of transaction in derivatives is speculation, its hedge funds, banks and individuals trying to make profits from the change in prices, they have no intention of buying the underlying asset they are betting on. (I give a few examples of this in the book, but you can check short selling which is a strategy used by speculators.)

In regards the effect such markets have on the real economy, It impacts the real economy as bubbles can be created which attracts lots of money pushing prices up, as we saw with real estate in the US.
Also banks take customer deposits and invest them in derivatives, if they make losses there collapse would affect the economy as we saw with Northern Rock, and if they make huge losses then they would tighten lending criteria which would affect company spending plans in the real economy who cannot get loans.


I know of at least 8 financial crisis of capitalism in the past..It seems as though noone ever learns and cares, there is no solution to the stagnant rotten tools and application of capitalism.
the motto continues....consumption+greed= Capitalism.

I rather try to find the best combination of systems and bond them together, as far as beneficial for society.

Shafique was explaining you the islamic model, which keeps it simple and functional.(Does not need much thinking at all) And there is no better social system than this.
Abolish interest rates, usury and speculation, make your wealth through The real economy where actual trading and manufacturing takes place. Do not fiddle with the income of ordinary people who can just about make a comfortable living but instead tax their wealth if they are able to save and invest.
Berrin
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 27, 2010
Rob, you did not reply on the direct question. What will happen when there were overcapasities in all industries? Where will capital flow?

As for investment to China they are also finite and defined mostly by demand in US and Europe. It only looks like we have a lot of doors. As I said all doors to emerging markets were closed in 1998.
Red Chief
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 27, 2010
Red Chief wrote:Rob, you did not reply on the direct question. What will happen when there were overcapasities in all industries? Where will capital flow?

As for investment to China they are also finite and defined mostly by demand in US and Europe. It only looks like we have a lot of doors. As I said all doors to emerging markets were closed in 1998.


The last crisis of 2008-2009 was a unique example in financial history. Every asset class in the world went up in price during 2001-2008, except one, which was the US dollar. When the crisis hit in 2008, demand in all asset classes dropped sharply, except for one, the US dollar.

So when overall market confidence dropped, demand for goods/investments dropped in panic, resulting in overcapacities and a slump in world trade. Money then moves into assets that are deemed safe(r). In this case, the US dollar (treasuries, currency), because its the most liquid asset class in the world.

So money flows at all times to where it is deemed safe. Gold is increasingly in demand as a safe haven against a declining dollar, due to monetization by the FED. Pure monetary inflation to prop up former price levels, so that the big banks remain solvent. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (95 procent of mortgage market) are nationalized and take in alot of money from the FED to cover losses in prime and subprime mortgage loans and keep supply off the market.

In essence, the entire mortgage market in the US is rigged now. The government keeps it from crashing to new lows on the back of the taxpayer.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 27, 2010
Berrin wrote:
If you go onto a gold standard, you withold from government the possibility of creating inflation.

O yeah,In regards to Inflation fluctuations in the amount of gold that is mined could cause inflation, if there is an increase, or deflation if there is a decrease.


Mine supply only increases by approx 3 procent per year at current capacity. Credit expansion in the US during 2005-2006 increased by 16 percent (YoY) while real economic growth that year was approx 3 or 4 percent. That means that credit expansion is close to five times higher.

You pick the most sound currency standard!! :idea:

I know of at least 8 financial crisis of capitalism in the past..It seems as though noone ever learns and cares, there is no solution to the stagnant rotten tools and application of capitalism.
the motto continues....consumption+greed= Capitalism.


Yep, and they are all mainly caused by credit expansion. Blame the FED. Such booms (and bust) scenarios can't reach the level of prices under a gold standard.

I rather try to find the best combination of systems and bond them together, as far as beneficial for society.


Shafique was explaining you the islamic model, which keeps it simple and functional.(Does not need much thinking at all) And there is no better social system than this.
Abolish interest rates, usury and speculation, make your wealth through The real economy where actual trading and manufacturing takes place. Do not fiddle with the income of ordinary people who can just about make a comfortable living but instead tax their wealth if they are able to save and invest.


Right. Start with implementing the rule of law first. :lol:

I'm studying more about interest rates, because there are instances in history were trade of goods in small towns without interest being paid were succesful. I'm not convinced in the model that Shafique presented. The Dubai property scenario keeps hanging in my view. The sharia compliant loans (which are higher than interest bearing loans) contributed alot in the speculative nature of those property assets. Absent the premium, I don't see those banks attract the capital they need for mini venture capital.

Coercive taxation is out of the order for people (like me) who's values are grounded in personal liberty and ownership rights. Coercion easily ramps up to tiranny and you probably know more about that than me. :blackeye:
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 27, 2010
Berrin wrote:
A common strategy speculators are using desperate for more profitable investments amid the US sub‐prime disaster is to take futures positions selling ‘short’. By selling a commodity or any
financial instrument short in essence this is betting on the price of the commodity or financial
paper to fall. Short‐sellers do not own anything they sell ‐ they borrow them from pension
funds and insurers. A common example is where; a hedge fund would borrow a million shares
in Megabank for a fee. It would then sell those million shares at the prevailing market price of
£8 a share, making £8 million in total. The hedge fund is betting and hoping that Megabank's
share price would then fall. If it falls ‐ to £4 a share the hedge fund then buys a million shares
for £4m and returns them to the lender. This means that the hedge fund has banked a real
cash profit of £4m. Lehman Brothers, the investment bank, has estimated that fuel is 30%
overpriced because of an influx of money into the oil market from investment funds. It
believes that hot money accounts for between $20 to $30 of the recent increase in oil prices
and that about $40 billion has been invested in the sector so far this year — equal to all the
money pumped into oil last year.


Any thoughts and ideas you have to stop this from ever happening again?


I already answered that in a reply above. I'll rephrase it below and add to it.

Derivatives (OTC) should be regulated on clearing exchanges and used only for hedging purposes. Speculation on futures, options can have a function for providing liquidity when strict position limits are applied, but doesn't fulfill a broader function in society, besides employment of a few. The same regulation should apply to commodities, precious metals, strategic metals, in my opinion.

I think it would help alot, if we got rid of leverage. Without the possibility of applying leverage, like under a gold standard, those speculative trades aren't interesting enough for commodity traders who speculate on e.g. the price of oil. These kinds of trades disrupt the real economy. There is no benefit in that, other than excessive bonusses for those traders. Thats no argument to me.

So, no leverage, strict position limits and you got rid of the profit motive in commodities speculation.
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Re: The Business Cycle Theory - Economics Mar 27, 2010
Such booms (and bust) scenarios can't reach the level of prices under a gold standard.

If Americans start gold standards, it is most likely that the whole world will have to start..

Having a metallic standard would handcuff governments as they can only print money relative to the amount of metal they can get hold of, this has the effect of containing inflation as money supply increases will be more in line with economic activity.

The total amount of gold that has ever been mined has been estimated at around 158,000 tons. Assuming a gold price of $1,000 per ounce, the total value of all the gold ever mined would be around $4.5 trillion. This is less than the value of circulating money in the US alone, where around $1.4 trillion is in circulation and another $11 trillion through banking deposits. However the real problem is not there is too little Gold but the fact there are too many dollars. How much a dollar can purchase for you (purchasing power) is the real issue for people around the world, because the US continues to freely print the dollar, each time it does this each dollar purchases less (devalues). For the US who has the dollar as its national currency it can continually print money to meet its economic needs, for the rest of the world because international financial markets and global commodities markets are all priced in dollars they would need to exchange their domestic currency for dollars and hope it hold its purchasing power, because if it doesn’t they will need to give up more of their domestic currency to buy dollars.

From 1971 US and its dollar become the worlds reserve currency. The US receives its legitimacy not from any intrinsic value but due to the global standing in the US and its ability to press the world to view global products using the dollar. This means for any nation wanting to purchase oil or platinum in the international markets they would need to convert their currency into dollars and then take possession of such goods. This means nations around the world face two variables, which since the end of the gold standard fluctuate widely, ones exchange rate with the dollar and the actual price of international goods – which are priced in dollars. It is here the world is being held to ransom by the US and is also the fundamental reason why the world needs to return back to the Gold standard.

Ones currency is one aspect of economy, in the order of importance with regards the economy, what regime one uses weather one has the singular gold standard, bimetallic standards or the mutli- metallic standard, such a policy comes well down the priority list. This is why nations do not have currency policy, ones currency is viewed as a means to exchange, hence it does not fall within the realm of policy making. Industrialisation, wealth circulation, taxation, commerce etc are much more important with regards their effect on the economy compared to what standard one should have for money. However this does not negate the fact that money has a role in the economy.
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