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Bora Bora wrote:If not, let me just say, that discrimination/racism towards blacks has a very long history as you are aware of. Black people were put on the welfare roles as it became a means to keep them down and uneducated. It became a lifestyle that was passed down to each generation. For appearances sake, government programs were established that were to help them to learn a skill or acquire an eduation to help them into the workforce. But the thinking was: why should I go to work and pay taxes and go home with 300 bucks a week, when I can stay home do nothing and collect 250 bucks a week, have my housing and utilities paid and get food stamps. The government made it more attractive to stay on welfare. But there are many who took advantage of the programs and helped themself out of that cycle because they wanted better for their children. Yes, the majority of people in prison are black. Most came from the generational cycle that was created by welfare.

You did not reply to my question but tell me only some excuses. As far as I know (correct me please if I don't) the attitude of government toward blacks dramatically changed at the beginning of 60s - since that time they have had even preferences against whites. So 50 years or almast 3 generations are over and it's Ok for you because they are citizen even though some of them have never paid taxes and commit most crimes but immigrants, who have always contributed a lot in development of US and also fill the vacancies which native Americans would never do, are scapegoats.

I look at the immigrants in Russia and see that it isn't easy bread to adapt in a new country but as Captain Australia said one time the biggest haters of immigrants are people who are citizen in the first generation.

Translating in more understandable language the ones, who have not contributed to the coffer for pretty long time living abroad in tax-free areas for ages.

By the way Shafique, my congratulation to Manchester University, which in 2010 brought UK the first Nobel Prize in Phisics for 50 years but the winners have very strange name and surname for your countrymen. Oh... pardon they were both graduated from the same uni as me... very strange... because it was prohibited to study in the mentioned uni for foreigners...
As I remember they invented grafene. I know it's not as great as Tetris. Of cause not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene

because it was prohibited to study in the mentioned uni for foreigners...

Are you saying that to be a nominee from a UK uni, they had to give up their native nationallity in favour of Britian?

^No Berrin - RC is just trying to make the point that the Russians that won the Nobel Prize at Manchester Uni had previously studied at his university in Russia (that university only allowed Russians - I think is what he was trying to say).

RC - I'm pro-immigration, so these types of examples help my argument.

Over in the US the CEO of Pepsi - is an immigrant woman, Indra Nooyi who was born and educated in India. In the UK the CEO of Prudential is a black French speaking dude called Tidjane Thiam who was born in Ivory Coast, lived in Morocco as a child and educated in Paris. i.e. he's an immigrant! Indeed silicon valley is full of immigrants in executive positions - a large number from India.

In medicine, some of the top specialists in the UK are immigrants - eg Professor Magdi Yacoub, a heart surgeon - born and educated in Egypt, before emigrating to the UK in the 60s. (Became a doctor there)

And that's just the tip of the iceberg - middle management, down to workers - immigrants are indeed providing a positive economic impact to the UK and US.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin wrote:

because it was prohibited to study in the mentioned uni for foreigners...

Are you saying that to be a nominee from a UK uni, they had to give up their native nationallity in favour of Britian?

How come? The mentioned university is Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, the one where both laureates, were graduated from. I'm not sure that they are "Brits" now but defenitely it's not necessary to give up their nationality. As they discover grafene working a few years in the Manchester United, sorry Manchester University, the Prize got registered to UK. My condratulation one more time!

-- Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:51 am --

shafique wrote:RC - I'm pro-immigration, so these types of examples help my argument.

Well well... Shafique... You are not only pro-immigrant but also true Brit with your "Tetris" additive but you don't understand me clearly. I don't mix up the country of immigrants like US and national country like UK although in my view US gains better result in Science due to brain-drain of many countries including Russia of cause.

Brain gain immigration is a well known fact in developed nations..UNIs and corporates are always out to hunt those brains that contribute to the continuation of to their fame and success , I would say this too is also a country policy..

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:If not, let me just say, that discrimination/racism towards blacks has a very long history as you are aware of. Black people were put on the welfare roles as it became a means to keep them down and uneducated. It became a lifestyle that was passed down to each generation. For appearances sake, government programs were established that were to help them to learn a skill or acquire an eduation to help them into the workforce. But the thinking was: why should I go to work and pay taxes and go home with 300 bucks a week, when I can stay home do nothing and collect 250 bucks a week, have my housing and utilities paid and get food stamps. The government made it more attractive to stay on welfare. But there are many who took advantage of the programs and helped themself out of that cycle because they wanted better for their children. Yes, the majority of people in prison are black. Most came from the generational cycle that was created by welfare.

You did not reply to my question but tell me only some excuses. As far as I know (correct me please if I don't) the attitude of government toward blacks dramatically changed at the beginning of 60s - since that time they have had even preferences against whites. So 50 years or almast 3 generations are over and it's Ok for you because they are citizen even though some of them have never paid taxes and commit most crimes but immigrants, who have always contributed a lot in development of US and also fill the vacancies which native Americans would never do, are scapegoats.

I look at the immigrants in Russia and see that it isn't easy bread to adapt in a new country but as Captain Australia said one time the biggest haters of immigrants are people who are citizen in the first generation.

Translating in more understandable language the ones, who have not contributed to the coffer for pretty long time living abroad in tax-free areas for ages.

I believe we are talking about the present RC, 2011, not during the times of slavery or even the 60s. I notice that you didn't get even close to answer any question that I asked. I never said or hinted that immigrants didn't contribute to the US. The US was built by immigrants. The cycle of immigrants "taking" jobs that "native Americans" won't take, is just that, a cycle.

If you take Shaf's family's history, there is a fine example of immigration. If more immigrants could achieve a fraction of what his family accomplished, countries such as the UK and US, would be far better off. Shaf's family are an example of what can be achieved if you work and get an education. I'm sure when his parents migrated to England it wasn't a cakewalk for them, not like it is today. They are a perfect example of what can be realized if you work hard at it.

As to your reference about not contributing to the coffer - living tax free? You couldn't be more wrong. As ex-pats we are still required, each year, to file income tax returns as well as to pay federal tax (nice piece of change there!) and other taxes that may be applicable. Don't be so quick to ASSume.

Bora Bora wrote: I notice that you didn't get even close to answer any question that I asked. I never said or hinted that immigrants didn't contribute to the US. The US was built by immigrants. The cycle of immigrants "taking" jobs that "native Americans" won't take, is just that, a cycle.

You are absolutely right but I intentionally did not do so until you don't reply on my question which I had asked first. Why it's Ok to be black and do nothing but it's absolutely wrong if a little fraction of immigrants do the same in time when most of them, especially who work in science, sports, IT and work on goverment at relatively small salary, do contribute to the coffer and development of US. Many of them graduated in their own countries for free by the way.

If you take Shaf's family's history, there is a fine example of immigration. If more immigrants could achieve a fraction of what his family accomplished, countries such as the UK and US, would be far better off

I feel there is a slight flaw in this logic, in the sense that the success of the children of immigrants cannot be determined to stay as good or just worse..just as it goes the same for native people...
There is no way of predicting if you like..it's more like lottery...

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote: I notice that you didn't get even close to answer any question that I asked. I never said or hinted that immigrants didn't contribute to the US. The US was built by immigrants. The cycle of immigrants "taking" jobs that "native Americans" won't take, is just that, a cycle.

You are absolutely right but I intentionally did not do so until you don't reply on my question which I had asked first. Why it's Ok to be black and do nothing but it's absolutely wrong if a little fraction of immigrants do the same in time when most of them, especially who work in science, sports, IT and work on goverment at relatively small salary, do contribute to the coffer and development of US. Many of them graduated in their own countries for free by the way.

Not only did they graduate in their own countries, in many cases they must to recertified in the US. Are you deliberately missing the point??? As to your question: I never said it was OK to be black and do nothing!!! I tried to explain to you, in my view, as to why it is the way it is. Let's also point out that blacks didn't migrate, they were born into it.

Statistically, the majority of recipients on welfare are white. 60% of them are women with children who came from domestic violence. In the States government does not categorize by the country one is from, but the color of their skin. Government has moved away from the "hispanic" category and shifted hispanics to the "white" category, bringing the number of whites way up. When I lived in the states I lived in a middle-class neighborhood in a complex of about 14 buildings, all owned by Trump. Trump cut a deal with the government and then as a result the government turned the complex into a welfare housing project. The majority of those who were placed in the housing - BY THE GOVERNMENT - were elderly Russians with no children. Too old to work, to go to school, or to contribute to society. There were also families where the children went to school to make a better life for themselves, but it would still leave their parents on the dole after the children moved on. This is my reference to what I know to be true. I am sure that there are other housing complexes that experienced the same with other ethnic immigrants.

As for blacks not doing anything and being on the dole: not my fault the government continues to allow it. There are many things the government does that I don't agree with, along with many other Americans, and if we had the power to change it, we would. When I refer to immigrants I refer to ANYONE who comes from another country into the US. Immigrants come in all sizes, shapes, and color. I don't know when you were in NY last, but depending on the area, ATM machines give you at least 5 languages to chose from. Adverts in the subway are written in various languages. Whereas in the UAE, there are 2 choices - English and Arabic in spite of the fact that there are how many nationalities here??

Now, please be so kind as to answer my questions. I am interested in knowing the answers. I promise not to hold you accountable for your responses. You are no more responsible for the way the Russian system works as I am no more responsible for the way the US system works.

Bora Bora wrote:
Not only did they graduate in their own countries, in many cases they must to recertified in the US. Are you deliberately missing the point???

It doesn't concern to Soviet or Russian diplomas in engeneering, science, IT and Math in general and diploma of my uni in particular, in contrast of situation in the UK with their famous scientific schools. As for degree in Scence we should go through humilating procedure (writing article for American doctors for years), which many people like pretty famous now mathetician Grigory Perelman rejected to do but he has always been a pretty crazy guy as later he rejected another generous offer - US$1 million from the same schmucks.

As to your question: I never said it was OK to be black and do nothing!!! I tried to explain to you, in my view, as to why it is the way it is. Let's also point out that blacks didn't migrate, they were born into it.

And what is your point? Why those good men are better than Alexander Ovechkin for instance who pays 6 Millions taxes every year and don't even pretend to the American Citizenship although he was born in Moscow in the family of Olympic champions or Sergey Brin, whose company Google has generated billions to the coffer.

I am interested in knowing the answers. I promise not to hold you accountable for your responses. You are no more responsible for the way the Russian system works as I am no more responsible for the way the US system works.

My government is not very generous to the own citizens especialy it concerns to pensioneers. On the other hand, immigration is relatively new phenomenon for Russia. We became open country only 19 years ago. So we have been suffering more on guestarbeiters (illegal foreign workers) and crimes, some ethnic groups generate. Not realy, Russia is not the best place to go on welfare.

Red Chief wrote:So we have been suffering more on guestarbeiters (illegal foreign workers) and crimes, some ethnic groups generate. Not realy, Russia is not the best place to go on welfare.

Unfortunately in the US, illegal Mexicans, or anyone who "looks" Mexican, suffer at the hands of Americans. I'm sure you have read stories on it when there was the topic of giving illegal Mexicans the green card/passport. There were two voices against it: those very Americans who were screaming how the Mexicans were taking jobs from them - the very people who think they are above doing the same jobs. Second, farmers and business/restaurant owners because they would be forced to pay minimum wages. I'm all for giving them the right to be in the states lawfully because they are willing to work and pay taxes.

I could only wish that the US government made welfare reform so that it wasn't so attractive.

Bora Bora wrote:Unfortunately in the US, illegal Mexicans, or anyone who "looks" Mexican, suffer at the hands of Americans. I'm sure you have read stories on it when there was the topic of giving illegal Mexicans the green card/passport.

5 years ago I saw a cartoon of a driving license issued in Cali with a foto of moustached man in sunhat and there was a cross on the place of signature.


I think you mentioned the notorious Arizona law, did not you, darling?

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Unfortunately in the US, illegal Mexicans, or anyone who "looks" Mexican, suffer at the hands of Americans. I'm sure you have read stories on it when there was the topic of giving illegal Mexicans the green card/passport.

5 years ago I saw a cartoon of a driving license issued in Cali with a foto of moustached man in sunhat and there was a cross on the place of signature.


I think you mentioned the notorious Arizona law, did not you, darling?

One in the same cupcake. Unfortunately the attacks and spread across the US. Arizona was more about the Mexican drug cartels using Arizona as a base than anything else.

RC, since Russia doesn't have an influx of legal immigrants and a welfare system in place, it may be hard for you to understand people such as myself as to the impact it has on a country. You would have to be on my side of the fence to understand. As for the Russians in the US that you speak of doing the professors work and struggling for their own contribution and recognition, I gather they weren't Russian Jews.

So we have been suffering more on guestarbeiters (illegal foreign workers) and crimes, some ethnic groups generate

As far as I know, guestworkers are those who are allowed into a hosting country by way of political contracts made between two nations...In this case your guestworkers are probably from ex russian satellite states...

Berrin wrote:

So we have been suffering more on guestarbeiters (illegal foreign workers) and crimes, some ethnic groups generate

As far as I know, guestworkers are those who are allowed into a hosting country by way of political contracts made between two nations...In this case your guestworkers are probably from ex russian satellite states...

LOL The contract. As I used to think any contract is some text on paper with 2 signatures. Yes, they are from the independent states, which Soviet Union were consist of but now (after 20 years of Independence)most those workers don't speak even a few words in Russian. The only benefit they have is permit to come (not work) to Russia without visa.
Thanks God Georgians, the most criminal ethnic group of Soviet Union, have needed visa after 08.08.08.

LOL The contract. As I used to think any contract is some text on paper with 2 signatures. Yes, they are from the independent states, .

How come? Haven't you seen these grand statesman sitting behind a well furnished desk exchanging agreement books (contracts) that signed with extra heavy fountain pen....

which Soviet Union were consist of but now (after 20 years of Independence)most those workers don't speak even a few words in Russian. The only benefit they have is permit to come (not work) to Russia without visa

If they were already there as part of colonial agreements then how is that you still call them illegal people without work permits..I would only say that you're right if they arrived after independance from Russia through illegal entry..Just the fact that russia doesn't apply visa to those nationalities could also mean that they are condoned as work force, had they wish to take up jobs ..

Berrin wrote: Just the fact that russia doesn't apply visa to those nationalities could also mean that they are condoned as work force, had they wish to take up jobs ..

How come? Even Russian can go without visa in many overseas country like Thailand, Hong Kong, Malaysia. Does it mean the same?
We have agreement with Belarus for instance that Russian and Belorussian can work, study free of charge ( including high education) in both countries. We also in process of preparation the similar agreement with Kazakhstan. Even now people from Kazakhstan can study in Russian uni free of charge at the same condition as Russian citizens.

How come? Even Russian can go without visa in many overseas country like Thailand, Hong Kong, Malaysia. Does it mean the same?

No.. surely not, they were not in the communist camp...

See you already gave an idea/clue as to how things work with ex satellite states..And remember, for Russia to continue its influence on these bordering Nations, it has to give concessions one way or another But ofcourse you will not know, notice them in details in daily life..

I think it's right way.

Two days ago my wife and I had a dinner together with one French couple. Of cause I ask the Frenchman about the current situation with EU in general and with Gypsies in partucular.
He replied me that Gypsies is a little problem compare with the competition with China and India with 1,5 Billion people each in near future. France alone with 60 Millions is not able to compete but EU with 450 Million is.
As far as I know there are 310 Million people in the US and nobody wants neighter to unite with Mexico nor more influx of immigrants.