Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

You live to argue & defend false principles, typical western.

Can you give me a link (or a vague clue) - I'm not asking for much, actual numbers and a reference for the numbers.

Apologies if I missed the actual numbers/data.

Cheers,
Shafique

symmetric wrote:You live to argue & defend false principles, typical western.

Contrary what many posters think, this thread is NOT about me. Its flattering, but it really isnt.

I had another look at the thread and also had a look at Elder's blog (sigh, not a pleasant place to go - but the figures from FD weren't forthcoming).
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... eace.html#

As I suspected, the figures are dodgy (the relevance as a measure has been explored by DDS above).

He takes the mid-point of estimates for death counts to make his graph. The numbers killed by Arabs he takes as 1.5m

Obvious fault number 1 - he is using 475,000 deaths for his estimate of the Algerian civil war casualties. Wiki states the figure is between 150,000 and 200,000.

Obvious fault number 2 - Lebanon Civil War figures are given in total. He hasn't counted the casualties caused by Israel directly and those indirectly caused by Israel (eg Sabra and Shatilla - where the Israeli courts said Sharon bore responsibility for the massacre).

I am not surprised that FD did not give us the link or the figures that Elder cobbled together, but only presented his graph as 'fact'.

Fail.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Obvious fault number 1 - he is using 475,000 deaths for his estimate of the Algerian civil war casualties. Wiki states the figure is between 150,000 and 200,000.

The war of independence was also a civil war in Algeria, next to the civil war of the 90s.

Those remarks dont matter much, the pie chart gives a good quick view of what is going on. If the Elder puts Arabs killed by Arabs at 1,5 million, the pie chart would still look the same more or less with 1 million Arabs killed by other Arabs.

No, with over 33% fewer deaths on the Arab side and with the deaths caused by Israel in Lebanon added to the Israeli side (about 20,000 all told), the pie chart would look different, I'd argue. It would show that Israel is disproportionately more bloodthirsty than the Arab states (compare the populations of the countries).

As for Algeria - the blogger is quite explicit about it relating to the civil war (and his lower estimate of 150,000 backs this up). In any case, the estimates of Arab killed by the FLN are 60k at worst - by French estimates, and much lower by other accounts. So the high figure for 800,000 for the Algerian civil war is 600,000 too high!

The figures for Iraq under Saddam also are inflated, so that needs to be reduced too (Elder says he uses wiki - but the 800,000 high figure for Saddam isn't on wiki for Arabs killed).

What is notable, is that the Israelis have killed more Arabs in their conflicts than pretty much all single events other than civil wars and Saddam's brutal regime.

The graph is therefore not 'evidence' at all - just a pretty picture from the mind of the blogger with a clear anti-Arab bias.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:No, with over 33% fewer deaths on the Arab side and with the deaths caused by Israel in Lebanon added to the Israeli side (about 20,000 all told), the pie chart would look VERY different. It would show that Israel is disproportionately more bloodthirsty than the Arab states (compare the populations of the countries).

Everybody is very welcome to give their own estimates and make a pie-chart. I think the elder is correct that from 1948 on, the number of Arabs killing other Arabs is between 1-2 million.

shafique wrote:As for Algeria - the blogger is quite explicit about it relating to the civil war (and his lower estimate of 150,000 backs this up).

Which one? And if so, he forgot one. A bloody one, no matter which one.

shafique wrote:What is notable, is that the Israelis have killed more Arabs in their conflicts than pretty much all single events other than civil wars and Saddam's brutal regime.

Other than civil wars and Saddam? No, cannot leave them out. Iran killed much more Arabs (by a factor of at least 5), but those can be left out. Where was/is Arab fury about the Yemen civil wars, the Algerian civil war of the 90s? About Saddams killing machine? Absolutely quite. Why? The only reason I can think of, is that no jews were involved. Any other explanation would be interesting.

I agree FD - we are all free to look at the evidence and make up our own minds.

Thanks for that - I just wanted to check out the figures behind the graph you presented as evidence, and now we have these and have exposed the basis for his estimates, we can all make up our own minds.

I personally did not think the Israelis had killed more people than Saddam - whose army was over a million by some estimates, or that the Israelis had killed more than died in civil wars in Yemen and Algeria. Indeed there are many civil wars around the world that are more bloody than the Israeli killings - and there are loads that are less bloody.

As I've pointed out before - I was against Saddam back when he was 'our tough guy' in the region.

But at the end of the day - it has been a really pathetic attempt to throw a smokescreen around Israel's crimes - over 50,000 killed, illegal land seizures/annexures and war crimes that you are sympathetic about.

All because you wanted to believe Elder of Ziyon's pretty graph. Sad that.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yet another knee-jerking attempt of personal attacks. I just cannot seem to get it clear that this thread is NOT about me! Stop it you guys!

Those killed by the IDF in self-defense I wouldnt call crimes. And a lot of Arabs killed by the IDF was/is self-defense. No, this thread is about Arab hypocricy. They donot seem to care that their brethern are killed by other Arabs, what when killed by jews, hell breaks loose.

Of course, sorry - the IDF is the most moral army in the world. How could I forget this spin that no one really believes any more?

LOL

You're right, this thread isn't about you - it's turning into a comedy thread about weird beliefs and pretty graphs made up by bloggers.

But you know me - a sucker for statistics, and the truth beyond the hype.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote: it's turning into a comedy thread about weird beliefs and pretty graphs made up by bloggers.

I havent seen any serious debunk of it. I havent seen another chart with estimates. Also no weird believes at all IMO. Indeed, so much more Arab are killed by Arabs than by Israeli's. Hey, even more Palestinian civilians are killed by their "brethern" than Israeli's. I donot think thats comical.

Hey, I'll defend your right to believe what you want to believe.

My failing is when presented with stats, I actually examine them. But that's just me.

I'll agree with you that the Israelis are less bloody than Saddam, Algerians, Pol Pot, Rwandans, Hitler etc etc - but those statistical facts doesn't lessen the breaches of international law, killings and on-going occupation.

(I'm not a big fan of What about-ery arguments - but hey, if you wish to make them and believe it makes the Israelis better guys... go ahead)

Cheers,
Shafique

For those that donot know how to make a pie-chart. Estimates can be given, and I can make it for you.

An "estimation" is an estimate, not reflecting actual numbers. Therefore open to interpretation,

And in any debate when personal attacks are used at any point, the entire debate is invalid, and from what I have seen, emotionally charged statements is a feminine characteristic and if anyone persists in it , should start wearing panties immediately.

So, in summary - an extreme Islamphobic blog makes a pie chart. Pie chart presented as evidence.

Pie chart's numbers found flawed.

Invitations offered to make a new pie chart.

So many pies, so little time to eat!

And in the meantime, we uncover the startling statistical facts that the 10s of thousands killed by Israel are fewer than those killed in civil wars and despotical regimes (Arab or otherwise). [Not that anyone disputed these obvious facts - Saddam, Hitler, Pol Pot etc all killed more than the 50,000 + Arabs killed by Israel!]

But hey, good of FD to offer to draw new pie charts for those who wish to submit their guesses. That's nice of him.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, in summary - an extreme Islamphobic blog makes a pie chart.

When looking at the beginning page with the latest entries of the last days I cannot see anything Islamophobic. I read more articles on this blog and didnt find anything Islamophobic. Could be that I missed something.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/

If anybody could find anything that they think is Islamophobic I would be happy to learn about it.

shafique wrote:Pie chart's numbers found flawed.

No alternative has been given, so the pie-chart still stands.

Elder also forgot to include casualties by Arab Muslims since the 2003 war in Iraq - over 100,000 dead from Arab Muslims in the space of a few short years.

Israel, over 60 years, fighting in conventional wars against large, modernized armies, has managed to kill fewer Arabs (mostly enemy soldiers attacking her) than bands of Arab holy warriors have in 7 years.

So, lets get some more accurate numbers and make a new pie chart! Simple as that.

All this Islamophobe and westerner bashing isn't really relevant to getting down to the nitty gritty of the numbers and assertion that more Arabs have been killed by fellow Arabs than by Israelis.

We can then also make a pie chart to see how many Caucasians have been killed by other Caucasians vs those killed by Arabs since 1914, say. I'm sure that will be as pretty a graph and will be as relevant to the real crimes committed by Israel in Palestine.

Stats are wonderful, I find.

I look forward to pie charts with credible numbers rather than invented figures from bloggers with a big axe to grind.

Cheers,
Shafique

May I suggest with the easier figure to kick things off.

Elder's graph is comparing the numbers of Arabs killed by Israelis with the number of Arabs killed by other Arabs. (There's something really creepy about looking at numbers killed by race on the one hand and nationality on the other - but let's leave that distasteful issue to one side).

We also need to establish a sense of scale as well. 'Arabs' is a nebulous description and dwarfs the numbers of Israelis - so we need to have some sense of adjusting for the differences in numbers.

I would suggest we look at the numbers who are taking part in the killing - in the Israeli section this would mean those in the IDF. Active numbers of the military is about 200,000 with about 500,000 (taking high estimates) in reserves. Arguably we should take the number who are active.

Then we come to the numbers killed. Elder has chosen 1948 - the formation of modern day Israel. That's a clear enough date - and so let's work with that.

Elder has estimated about 50,000 Arabs killed by Israel (less that the highest estimate of 60,000).

As pointed out earlier, this excludes Arabs (including Palestinians) killed in Lebanon in the 80s when the Israelis jumped into the middle of the Lebanese Civil War and bombed Lebanon and invaded the country. Estimates of the numbers they killed then (directly and indirectly) need to be added. I suggest 20,000 as a reasonable guesstimate.

Therefore I'd say my figures for Arabs killed by Israel since 1948 is 70,000 (taking Elder's estimate and adding the ones killed by Israel in Lebanon).

To give a sense of scale, I'd say we express this as a number killed per 100,000 of active military - which gives us 35 killed per 100,000 active members. (This is a crude measure - we're taking a total over 60 years and dividing it by a point estimate - a better measure would be an average of the soldiers over the 60 years, but that would give a lower figure for soldiers and a higher figure of deaths per 100k soldiers).

I'll leave others to show what the comparitive figures for the various Arab on Arab conflicts are and give their workings.

I have no idea whether the calculations will show that Arabs are more bloodthirsty per combatant than the Israelis - we need to look at the calculations. I think it is unlikely that the hundreds more killed in the civil war will be outweighed by the higher number of combatants - i.e. I would expect that Saddam's regime has indeed killed more Iraqis per 100,000 of his troops - the calculations will bear out by how much. Overall I'm not sure the picture will be any clearer - there are figures of killings in countries where the numbers killed have been relatively low (and this will bring the overall figure down).

[Edit: a quick calculation for Iraq, using 375k as the size of army in 2003 (it was 500k in the iran-iraq war) and using Elder's estimate of 700k killed, gives Saddam's era a whopping 1867 per 100k - i.e. over 50 times that of Israel.

Note that this is using Elder's figure without first examining it for credibility.

Also, interesting to note the figures when we use population size as a different measure (which may be the best we can use when we look at Algeria, for example). Roughly, Iraq is 'only' twice times as bloodthirsty as Israel using this measure - using a population of 31m for Iraq and 7m for Israel.)

I.e. per capita, for every 2 Arabs killed by Iraqis, the Israelis killed one Arab. And that is taking the numerically worst example from the list used for the graph. Not a great statistic..

]

Cheers,
Shafique

On reflection, should we not look at the relative chances of an Arab in each group of being killed by an Israeli vs being killed by another Arab?

So, the total Palestians killed by Israel should be divided by the number of Palestinians in the territories (this gives the relative chance of being killed by Israel).

In the other Arab areas, the total numbers killed by Arabs should be divided by the equivalent number of total Arab population in those areas.

We'll then be able to compare whether over the period a Palestinian had more or less chance of being killed by Israel as an Arab elsewhere had a chance of being killed by an Arab.

Once we get better estimates than Elder's guesses - we can do this calculation.

Cheers,
Shafique

Al Shafique , do you support the right for Israel to exist? And if you hate them so much why do you read their news papers all day.

Yes, I support Israel's right to exist. I have personal friends who are Israeli - both Jewish and Arab.

My point of view is quite simple - Israel should abide by UN resolutions and should take up the Arab peace plan of 2000 (two state solution based on 1967 green line, limited land exchange, East Jerusalem to Palestine, West Jerusalem to Israel, limited number of refugees allowed to return as a symbolic gesture)

I don't hate Israelis - but I do hate Israeli injustice (as do the many Israelis I quote - from B'tselem to those journalists opposing racism).

Cheers,
Shafique