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Since Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in 2008, Kosovo residents who were openly Muslim have since revealed they are actually Catholic. The practice of being a crypto-Catholic has existed for many centuries, beginning when the Ottomans militarily conquered the region and imposed heavier taxes on Christians - prompting many to convert to Islam - some only artificially - to avoid additional taxation.

A freshly-painted image of the crucified Christ looked down on seven pews packed with believers, mainly farmers, their faces tanned by the sun after toiling in the fields.

"Today we sing aloud, we do not have to sit in darkness as the gloomy, terrible days are gone and joy has dawned on us," a sister chanted in Albanian.

Nothing out of the ordinary, even in overwhelmingly Muslim Kosovo, one might think.

But the church was built in 2008, the same year as 65-year-old Beg Bytyqi declared himself a Catholic Christian.

Bytyqi was one of the first villagers to embrace Christianity openly after their forebears practised the faith in secret for hundreds of years while publicly proclaiming themselves to be Muslims.

[...]

Known in Kosovo as Laramans -- meaning colourful or many-faceted in the Albanian language -- they have turned away from the Islam brought in by the Ottoman Turks who conquered the Balkans in the 15th century.

-- 'A recipe for survival' -- Under Ottoman rule many Christians converted to Islam to avoid the high taxes imposed on them while churches and monasteries were turned into mosques....

http://news.ph.msn.com/lifestyle/kosovo ... ith-openly

Thanks eh. For once, an interesting article indeed. The bits that you didn't quote were enlightening indeed.

That a small fraction of the 1.7m Kosovans are reverting to the faith of their ancestors is not that surprising. The 50,000 Catholics out of 1.7million is for the whole Catholic population, (most of whom aren't converts from Islam) - so the ex-crypro-Catholics are a small part of that figure.

Historically, Catholics under the Ottomans weren't subject to conscription into the Ottoman army. Under the Ottomans, some Kosovans declared themselves Catholic to avoid conscription (declaring themselves crypto-Catholics). This shows that the choice to be Catholic or Muslim was exercised freely under the Ottomans:

During the period in which the conversion of Catholics to Islam was fastest (the second half of the sixteenth century to the end of the eighteenth century) many converts continued to accept Catholic rites in private, although the Catholic Church banned this from 1703, [2] and as late as 1845 significant numbers of people who had passed as Muslims declared themselves to be Catholics, to avoid conscription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... ite_note-2

Also, to put the current Catholic population figure in context, there are over 100,000 Orthodox Christians in Kosovo (Serbian Orthodox).

That over 90% of the population remain Muslim - and that pretty much all are descendants of converts to Islam is hardly surprising at all.


I found it interesting that the Christians in Kosovo quoted in the article don't share your Islamophobia though. :

Only about 50,000 of Kosovo's 1.7 million citizens are Catholics, while more than 90 percent of the population is Muslim.

About 40 people from Kravaseri village, home to around 100 families, have reverted since 2008 to their ancestors' religion, shedding light on the phenomenon of crypto-Catholics.
..
"People have the right to declare themselves what they want... to choose between Jesus and Mohamed, the Koran or the Bible as both are holy books," said Filloreta Bytyqi, another resident of Kravaseri.
..
For now, Kosovo Muslims do not mind the new converts.

Islamic official Resul Rexhepi is sure that the new converts cannot change the statistical balance between the confessions in Kosovo, where Muslims "absolutely dominate."

"It is not a threat to national unity which has been tempered through history and tough times," he told AFP in the newly refurbished headquarters of the Islamic community in Pristina.

For Bytyqi, "peace of mind" has finally come after 61 years of being a Muslim in public and only four as a Christian.

"I have paid my debt. But I do not impose it (the Catholic faith) on my children, it is up to them," he said.

His 39-year son Agim said he has yet to decide whether to follow in his father's footsteps steps.

"I go to the church and to the mosque, as they are both God's houses," Agim said.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:This shows that the choice to be Catholic or Muslim was exercised freely under the Ottomans:

No, it actually doesn't if you bothered to fully read your link instead of making conclusions on a topic you know nothing about:

There were widespread, though unconfirmed, rumours that President Ibrahim Rugova had been baptised a Catholic before his death in 2006: it seems likely that his family originated in the village of Rugovo (Alb: Rugovë) where in 1817 a number of men who had Muslim names but openly professed Catholicism were executed by the Ottoman authorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Kosovo

So, unless apostasy laws were abolished between 1817 and 1845, I'd say you're once again succeeding in displaying your ignorance. No need to answer, you won't respond with anything remotely intelligent in your babbling.

shafique wrote:The bits that you didn't quote were enlightening indeed.

I know you're not the brightest, but it's typically bad form to copy/paste entire articles in threads.

shafique wrote:That a small fraction of the 1.7m Kosovans are reverting to the faith of their ancestors is not that surprising

The article is talking of Catholics who continuously secretly lived as Catholics from generation to generation. They are only reverting to Catholicism publicly. The relatively small numbers are actually large since these Catholics have been secretly Catholic for centuries:

Bytyqi was one of the first villagers to embrace Christianity openly after their forebears practised the faith in secret for hundreds of years while publicly proclaiming themselves to be Muslims.

"I inherited the faith from my father as he did from his. Ever since I remember, we have celebrated Christmas and Easter in secrecy, holding ceremonies at home," he said.

I assume this is a reading impairment problem on display.

Statistics and historical facts always seem to be your downfall eh. You seem incapable of supporting your Islamophobia without resorting to spin and selective quotes. The conversions to Christianity in 1845 are referenced in the link I gave - no need to present your spin and assumptions as fact.

The presence of 'crypto-Catholics' (a practice that the Church banned in 1703) is not a surprise - nor is the fact that 90% of the population still is Muslim (and all of them are descendants of converts).

I understand your desire to hype the numbers - but facts, again, aren't on your side.

Sigh.

Next time, do some research. I won't post again on this topic unless you bring some new information.

I note also that you have no answer to the Catholic's view of Islam and the Quran. An inconvenient fact for you and your Islamophobia.


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Statistics and historical facts always seem to be your downfall eh. You seem incapable of supporting your Islamophobia without resorting to spin and selective quotes. The conversions to Christianity in 1845 are referenced in the link I gave - no need to present your spin and assumptions as fact.

The presence of 'crypto-Catholics' (a practice that the Church banned in 1703) is not a surprise - nor is the fact that 90% of the population still is Muslim (and all of them are descendants of converts).

I understand your desire to hype the numbers - but facts, again, aren't on your side.

Now, what did I say about you giving analysis on topics you know nothing about?

The facts are apostasy from Islam was punishable with death in the Ottoman empire until 1844. After which, apostasy was punishable with imprisonment or exile.

It took decades for the more modern laws to take effect in Kosovo.

In 1846, 25 men and their families (176 in total) who were laramans declared themselves officially Catholic. As a result, they were exiled, imprisoned and tortured; two years later they were allowed to return to their homes. The ordeal cost them the lives of nearly 100 of their family members. They are known as the martyrs of stublla.

The incident was preceded by another violent reaction to apostasy in 1837 when Crypto-Catholics were imprisoned, tortured and forcibly circumcised by Ottoman governors. They were released after renouncing their conversion.

You claimed the choice to become Catholic was exercised freely under the Ottomans yet provide nothing to back your claim up with anything more than the usual pointless babble.

Oh, and lastly, 95% of Church recorded baptisms of laramans took place in a fifty year period decades after 1845. But hey, why let facts get in the way of our Google scholar?

Well, given you've brought up the Martyrs of Stublla in 1846 when the quote above was about the converts to Catholicism in 1845, let's examine both to see whether you're trying to pull a fast one (again).

First, Martyrs of Stublla were exiled, not executed - this is covered here on pg86 of Religion and the Politics of Identity in KosovoBy Gerlachlus Duijzing :

http://books.google.mu/books?id=5HPvGOH ... &q&f=false

On pg 93 it states that the Ottoman authorities granted the exiles a ferman which stated that they were officially recognised as Catholics. It was the Muslim elite in Kosovo that didn't want to grant the recognition it says. The official Ottoman stance was not therefore death, but rather gave them documents to support their conversion!

On pg92/93 we have the reference to the 1845 conversions:

In 1845 the prospects for conversion seemed more promising after laramans in other parts of Kosovo had been officially recognised as Roman Catholics.

pg96 states that the laramans in Stublla and those who successfully converted in 1845 in Gjakova and Peja - did so to avoid conscription into the army

Who the laramans were is also covered - as are their small numbers - by definition they were those who weren't fully Muslim (or fully Christian) either. Again, statistics and facts are your downfall.

But let me end with a quote from pg 103:

With this in mind, the notion of crypto-Cathoicism should be treated with caution, at least where the early 19th century is concerned. It seems that when the church first re-established its presence in the area crypto-Cathoicism was more an idea
propagated by the church than a genuinely popular phenomenon.

I thank you - a most interesting topic and an insight into this Muslim part of Europe.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:First, Martyrs of Stublla were exiled, not executed - this is covered here on pg86 of Religion and the Politics of Identity in KosovoBy Gerlachlus Duijzing :

I wrote:As a result, they were exiled, imprisoned and tortured; two years later they were allowed to return to their homes. The ordeal cost them the lives of nearly 100 of their family members.

Of course, I never said they were executed, you POS liar. This is simply a fabrication you invented and attributed to me. They are referred to martyrs for a reason - they have to die.

Nearly 100 members from the group - women, children and men - died from the ordeal, which is exactly what I wrote.

shafique wrote:On pg 93 it states that the Ottoman authorities granted the exiles a ferman which stated that they were officially recognised as Catholics.

After they were exiled, imprisoned and tortured for two-three years.

shafique wrote:The official Ottoman stance was not therefore death, but rather gave them documents to support their conversion!

The official Ottoman stance was exile, imprisonment and torture, you lying POS.

You can put away your strawman too since I explicitly mentioned the death penalty for apostasy was abolished in 1844 and the martyrs of Stublla incident took place in 1846. You are phenomenally daft.

Are you even capable of basic reading comprehension?

I wrote:The facts are apostasy from Islam was punishable with death in the Ottoman empire until 1844. After which, apostasy was punishable with imprisonment or exile.

[...]

In 1846, 25 men and their families...

shafique wrote:pg96 states that the laramans in Stublla and those who successfully converted in 1845 in Gjakova and Peja - did so to avoid conscription into the army

I don't know where to even begin with your delirium. Not only are you incapable of comprehending anything that is written, and mischaracterising what is written, you are back your original claim that: This shows that the choice to be Catholic or Muslim was exercised freely under the Ottomans:

shafique wrote:pg96 states that the laramans in Stublla and those who successfully converted in 1845

Funny google boy. I read this part of the book before you. What the author actually does is recount the beliefs of a German scholar who held this view while acknowledging a different interpretation. The author no where claims apostasy to Christianity was tolerated in the Ottoman empire or Kosovo in particular. Your earlier debunked claim is an out-and-out lie and has been disproven if you carefully read the book you're now relying on after you typed in "martyrs of Stublla" into google, O Google Scholar.

My 'earlier debunked claim is an out-and-out lie'?

I beg to differ.

pg96 states that the laramans in Stublla and those who successfully converted in 1845 in Gjakova and Peja - did so to avoid conscription into the army

The small number of laramans, and the conclusion about crypto-Catholicism actually make my point very well indeed. Thanks again for shedding light on this topic.

It exposes your bluff:

The relatively small numbers are actually large since these Catholics have been secretly Catholic for centuries..

The Stublla families were granted a firman by the Ottoman authorities which confirmed they had converted to Catholicism - so there was no official Ottoman punishment for converting to Catholicism (in 1845/6) - so your contention that it was punishable by exile/death etc is to mischaracterise this one incident and blame the Ottomans for it. You've been found out.

The Catholics who chose not to convert remained a smallish number in the population - but Catholics they remained.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:This shows that the choice to be Catholic or Muslim was exercised freely under the Ottomans:

Lying POS.

Hook line and sinker! Ratty got you this time shaf

^

At least he lost the argument though - he's just resorting to name calling now.

I'll take myself off the hook now.. but it was fascinating to read about this Muslim corner of Europe.

Cheers,
Shafique

desertdudeshj wrote:"only women you know are kunts like windbag and your whore wife" - desertdudeshj

Do everyone a favor; cut down the road, not across the street.

shafique wrote:At least he lost the argument though - he's just resorting to name calling now

Must have missed this, O lying POS. Pray tell, where have you addressed the penalty for apostasy under the Ottoman empire and numerous examples of atrocities against Christian converts by the authorities?

I've seen where I refuted your lies regarding claims I've never made. In that case, you simply resort to changing the subject as soon as I show what a liar you are:

shafique wrote:First, Martyrs of Stublla were exiled, not executed

I wrote:As a result, they were exiled, imprisoned and tortured

And:

shafique wrote:The official Ottoman stance was not therefore death, but rather gave them documents to support their conversion!

I wrote: apostasy from Islam was punishable with death in the Ottoman empire until 1844. After which, apostasy was punishable with imprisonment or exile.

You're a proven liar who can't even address your own lies when caught.

Nowhere does the author you now rely on claim or imply apostasy to Christianity was freely tolerated in the Ottoman empire. The Martyrs of Stublla, as you forgot to mention, were allowed to return after foreign intervention (p 86) rather than the policy taken independently by the Ottoman empire which had been imprisoning and torturing members for the past three years.

You're not happy are you eh?

rayznack wrote:
The relatively small numbers are actually large since these Catholics have been secretly Catholic for centuries

vs the reality of the small number of laramans in the chapter you claimed to have read

And

shafique wrote:The Stublla families were granted a firman by the Ottoman authorities which confirmed they had converted to Catholicism - so there was no official Ottoman punishment for converting to Catholicism (in 1845/6) - so your contention that it was punishable by exile/death etc is to mischaracterise this one incident and blame the Ottomans for it. You've been found out.

Your fail is funny - name calling is all you have left. So I'll leave you to it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks, I didn't expect you to address your lies against me, such as claiming that I said the martyrs of Stublla had been executed.

What you filth liar you are.

But I'm glad you can't address that apostacy was punishable under the Ottoman empire and the several incidents of state sanctioned oppression against converts to Christianity in Kosovo during a period you claim conversion was freely allowed.

rayznack wrote:What you filth liar you are.

Calm down - your grammar is suffering in your failure. In future just stay away from anything involving numbers or historical facts. Your blood pressure will thank you for it.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:vs the reality of the small number of laramans in the chapter you claimed to have read

What's funny is you don't understand the meaning of "relative" - as in, hundreds of "reverts" to Catholicism is large considering they had secretly been Christian for generations for four hundred years before converting to Catholicism publicly.

The interesting part - the "converts" to Catholicism to avoid military service is small compared to later times, including now.

shafique wrote:Calm down - your grammar is suffering in your failure. In future just stay away from anything involving numbers or historical facts. Your blood pressure will thank you for it.

No mistake in what I wrote.

Thank you. Your last post was more grammatically correct.

I assure you, I do indeed understand the signifcance of the small numbers of laramans and how within this small community a proportion chose to convert to Catholicism.

I'm just calling you out on your hyping this small part of the Kosovan population - which is even a small part of the Catholic population in Kosovo.

Anyway, I guess you have actually read by now how small the laraman community actually was and have digested the quote from the chapter in question:

With this in mind, the notion of crypto-Cathoicism should be treated with caution, at least where the early 19th century is concerned. It seems that when the church first re-established its presence in the area crypto-Cathoicism was more an idea propagated by the church than a genuinely popular phenomenon.

Facts, not hype.

Now, I really have to leave you to it - DDS will be on my case if I don't.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm just calling you out on your hyping this small part of the Kosovan population - which is even a small part of the Catholic population in Kosovo.

I did? Where? How? I don't even understand what it means that I "hyped" a small part of Kosovo's population.

Perhaps this is just another example of your borderline mind responding to arguments no one has made.

Your response from the first post shows how you needed to deal with the threat of such an benign story by trying to undermine what no one else would have cared about.

But hey, at least we have a crusader to defend Islam 24/7. What a coincidence, that's your nick, right?

I like how you reveal what a deluded, paranoid and insufferable individual you are.

shafique wrote:Anyway, I guess you have actually read by now how small the laraman community actually was and have digested the quote from the chapter in question:

You are really obsessed with attacking the laraman community. "Their numbers are really small. They weren't really Catholic."

You are a deranged person. It's interesting how obsessed you are with point scoring that actual points slip past you.

But yes, in the past four years, only several hundred Kosovoan Muslims have publicly converted to the faith practiced by their forebears non-stop for the past four hundred years.

You sound like the crazed mufti in the article who is not worried about the current trend because right now it's not enough to make a difference.

For now, Kosovo Muslims do not mind the new converts.

Islamic official Resul Rexhepi is sure that the new converts cannot change the statistical balance between the confessions in Kosovo, where Muslims "absolutely dominate."

"It is not a threat to national unity which has been tempered through history and tough times," he told AFP in the newly refurbished headquarters of the Islamic community in Pristina.

Careful, your religious bigoted self is starting to show.

But hey, I'm glad you strongly made the point how small the laraman community is.

I'm sure you needed to do that to prove what a great warrior you are for Islam.

You just had to go and quote stats, didn't you!

You do realise that the original article is about the Laramans (you even quote the definition - which the book you've said you've read says is 'two-faced' rather than 'multi-faceted' - a slight difference, you'd agree). Laramans only superficially converted to Islam, the book states - hence the 'two-faced' reference.

But yes, in the past four years, only several hundred Kosovoan Muslims have publicly converted

I understand the rant because you've now looked up how small the Laraman community actually is and at least we can now see that of the 50,000+ Catholics in Kosovo (and over 100,000 Orthodox) 'only a few hundred' are Laraman converts from Islam. And the book states that the baptisms have been taking place since the 19th century..

Stats rarely agree with your arguments eh. Facts, not hype.

Now, I really, really think I'll leave you to it.

Cheers,

Shafique

You really do have a habit for proving my point.

shafique wrote:'only a few hundred' are Laraman converts from Islam. And the book states that the baptisms have been taking place since the 19th century..

I have no idea where this fits in with anything I've actually said.

I actually said the article said that there have been several hundred baptisms/public conversions in the past four years. I said nothing about the cumulative total for the past two centuries.

shafique wrote:Stats rarely agree with your arguments eh. Facts, not hype.

You certainly are a repulsive individual. What exactly do you imagine my arguments are or how stats rarely agree with them?

You simply need to fabricate what others say in order to respond with off topic rantings.

shafique wrote:You just had to go and quote stats, didn't you!

Oh dear, you do get excited easily, don't you? Perhaps you can address your previously exposed lies or your current strawmen that you've failed to explain their relevance to anything I've written or posted in this thread?

It was your initiative to discuss Catholic revert numbers in your first post in this thread.

My feeling is that you felt threatened by a story of people who only superficially converted to Islam to escape high taxation and in recent years, after four centuries of families being faux-Muslims, many were now publicly declaring their true Catholic faith.

I don't believe you're a real actuary. No one could be as daft as you and graduate with any degree worth more than the paper it's printed on.

One thing I have noticed is that wherever you post, members usually point out your fallacies and poor reasoning abilities to you only for you to prove their allegations in a following post.

You are the rare individual incapable of taking anything from the criticism of others.