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Islam does not condone honour killings.

As for the quote :

Muslims number somewhere between 3.3 and 7.0 million in the US today, but Daniel Pipes believes that 7 million is a high number. J. Grant Swank writes "In America alone, there are [u][b]5,000 so-called 'honor killing' deaths every year. Five thousand!"

Given that this report says that GLOBALLY there are about 5000 honour killings a year, I'm starting to think this is yet another case of Loons getting their stats horribly wrong (this is from a UN report from 2000):
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/english/ch03.html

It also contains the very real crimes against women. And as this thread is about a crime in the US against a woman there, this quote is apt (and shocking):

In the United States, a woman is battered, usually by her intimate partner, every 15 seconds.5 Physical violence is nearly always accompanied by psychological abuse, which can be just as demeaning and degrading.

Edit: Looking at the 2009 homicide stats for the USA:
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offens ... le_01.html

We see that of the 13,636 homicides, only 128 were of women who weren't 'black', 'white' or 'unknown' (34 of these).

So much for 5000 honor killings a year in the USA!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Islam does not condone honour killings.

As for the quote :

Muslims number somewhere between 3.3 and 7.0 million in the US today, but Daniel Pipes believes that 7 million is a high number. J. Grant Swank writes "In America alone, there are [u][b]5,000 so-called 'honor killing' deaths every year. Five thousand!"

Given that this report says that GLOBALLY there are about 5000 honour killings a year, I'm starting to think this is yet another case of Loons getting their stats horribly wrong (this is from a UN report from 2000):
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/english/ch03.html

It also contains the very real crimes against women. And as this thread is about a crime in the US against a woman there, this quote is apt (and shocking):

In the United States, a woman is battered, usually by her intimate partner, every 15 seconds.5 Physical violence is nearly always accompanied by psychological abuse, which can be just as demeaning and degrading.

Cheers,
Shafique

Where is the quote does it say GLOBALLY??? It says: in AMERICA alone.

There you go Al Shaf, rewriting it to serve your own purposes. As for who you believe or don't believe comes down to you believing its a matter of who serves your purpose. You see, you can't stand to be wrong, nor can you stand anything/anyone that proves certain aspects of Islam to be archaic, unjust and unfair.

Because honor killing is relatively a new import to the US, many women who were murdered under the honor killing code, the cause of death was not listed as "honor killing", but murder/homicide. It is only in the past few years that there is a distinction between murder/homicide and "honor killing".

As for Daniel Pipes, he's well established, not some Mickey Mouse forum expert:

Middle East Quarterly's publisher, the Philadelphia-based Middle East Forum, is an American conservative[3] think tank founded in 1990 by historian and columnist Daniel Pipes, who also serves as its director.[4] According to Michelle Goldberg from Salon magazine, Pipes "has a Ph.D. from Harvard and is the author of 11 books, including the recent Militant Islam Reaches America. The Forum founded the Middle East Quarterly in 1994.

I bet you didn't think anyone would notice your attempt to take the spotlight off of honor killings in America and move it over to "crimes against women in America. Well I did notice Al Shaf (as I'm sure others do), and that's a whole different subject. Crimes against women are GLOBAL!!!

Please keep on topic Al Shaf, which is about honor killings!!!!

I found this site and thought that this guy says it plain and simple. It's a quick read and I hope Al Shaf can grasp it. http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/0 ... he_us.html

There is not enough ink or time for me to enumerate all the honor killings in the US by Muslim immigrants. But what would it prove anyway? Muslim apologists will continue to maintain that honor killings are ancient tribal customs and have nothing to do with Islam. A tribal thing, eh? Funny that. I did not know that these immigrants from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Egypt were members of the same ancient tribe. And the Turkish, Jordanian and Palestinian killers mentioned above, they too are members of the same ancient tribe. Pakistan has more than a thousand reported honor killings. Wow, what a big tribe. I wonder, and here I am wondering aloud, is there any one thing tying all these disparate tribal members to each other? I don't know, let me take a stab at it: they all follow the same soccer team? Nah. It must be something else. I just can't put my finger on it.

What does it mean to say Islam does not condone honor killings when a number of Muslim countries that base their laws from Islamic Law do condone honor killings?

Also, isn't saying Islam is monolithic (Islam is [not] X, ie., Islam does not condone honor killings) one of the five deadly sins of Islamophobia?

Islam is monolithic and cannot adapt to new realities.

Islam does not share common values with other major faiths.

Islam as a religion is inferior to the West. It is archaic, barbaric and irrational.

Islam is a religion of violence and supports terrorism.

Islam is a violent political ideology.

herve wrote:Al Shafique, this is for you and your brothers, this mooslim assassin got "awarded" 34 years in a American prison for a honor killing, looks like your sick sharial law will take effect in the US when pigs grow wings and fly.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/15/can- ... n-america/

Nowhere in the sharia is this sanctioned, so kindly refrain from making inaccurate conclusions

zubber wrote:
Nowhere in the sharia is this sanctioned, so kindly refrain from making inaccurate conclusions

And how do you call locking up women to death:
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Herve this is a verse that abrogates earlier verses in torah and gospel...According to the judaic punishment, while man used to recieve a 100 flog and a year's exile(from hadiths), women were used to given death punishment(stoning)..
God in quran gradually abolishes severe punishment for adultery/fornication as society advances and religion establishes itself I guess. Later this verse is also abrogated by another verse in chapter 24:2
(So god ordains woman "the other way" by given equal punishment to each)..
24:2-The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
In later verses, how this punishment will take place is explained...
24:6-9
And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
4:25
..... they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: ....... when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women.

Since stoning punishment cannot be split into two halfs, from the day verse 24:2 arrived this punishment has been abandoned and settled for a 100 flogging for both single and married adulterers/ fornicators...

-- Sun May 22, 2011 12:06 am --

And also herve there is protection of an individuals honour in islam but this doesn't mean that someone who commits sin brings shame(embarrassment) to the individuals(mainly parents)living at home. Couse the punishment for adultery/fornication has already been established upon bringing forward withnesses(which is almost impossible) and also God is open to invokes for forgiveness,(therefore it cannot be families right to kill) as killing takes the rights for repentance away from the victim..
Since there is no honour killing in islam which is totally misunderstood by ignorant/undereducated muslims, I can only tell you that this is the proper explanation of honour...
2. The Protection of Honour
The second important right is the right of the citizens to the protection of their honour. In the address delivered on the occasion of the Farewell Hajj, to which I have referred earlier, the Prophet did not only prohibit the life and property of the Muslims to one another, but also any encroachment upon their honour, respect and chastity were forbidden to one another. The Holy Quran clearly lays down:

(a) "You who believe, do not let one (set of) people make fun of another set. (b) Do not defame one another. (c) Do not insult by using nicknames. (d) And do not backbite or speak ill of one another" (49:11-12).

This is the law of Islam for the protection of honour which is indeed much superior to and better than the Western Law of Defama- tion. According to the Islamic Law if it is proved that someone has attacked the honour of another person, then irrespective of the fact whether or not the victim is able to prove himself a respectable and honourable person the culprit will in any case get his due punishment. But the interesting fact about the Western Law of Defamation is that the person who files suit for defamation has first to prove that he is a man of honour and public esteem and during the interrogation he is subjected to the scurrilous attacks, accusations and innuendoes of the defence council to such an extent that he earns more disgrace than the attack on his reputation against which he had knocked the door of the court of law. On top of it he has also to produce such witnesses as would testify in the court that due to the defamatory accusations of the culprit, the accused stands disgraced in their eyes. Good Gracious! what a subtle point of law, and what an adherence to the spirit of Law! How can this unfair and unjust law be compared to the Divine law? Islam declared blasphemy as a crime irrespective of the fact whether the accused is a man of honour or not, and whether the words used for blasphemy have actually disgraced the victim and harmed his reputation in the eyes of the public or not. According to the Islamic Law the mere proof of the fact that the accused said things which according to common sense could have damaged the reputation and honour of the plaintiff, is enough for the accused to be declared guilty of defamation.

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Book ... _of_Honour

-- Sun May 22, 2011 12:16 am --

And also in an islamic society (lewdness, unlawful sexual intercourse,indecency) as in the case of man to woman, man to man, woman to woman....makes no difference, it is simply impossible to bring forward 4 witnesses for punishment unless the person admits it themselves..

herve wrote:

zubber wrote:
Nowhere in the sharia is this sanctioned, so kindly refrain from making inaccurate conclusions

And how do you call locking up women to death:
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Exegesis is done after adherence to rules and regulations in that domain. So seek to understand that concept and if you are reluctant to do so, keep quiet.

zubber wrote:

herve wrote:

zubber wrote:
Nowhere in the sharia is this sanctioned, so kindly refrain from making inaccurate conclusions

And how do you call locking up women to death:
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Exegesis is done after adherence to rules and regulations in that domain. So seek to understand that concept and if you are reluctant to do so, keep quiet.

Why does everyone who doesn't agree with you have to keep quiet or as you so quaintly put it, STFU?
This is a public forum where anyone can post what they like and if you can't deal with it, then that's your problem Zubber.
Do stop telling people to shut up. Take a leaf out of your own book.

^^ do tell your cronies to quit talking rubbish

zubber wrote:^^ do tell your cronies to quit talking rubbish

They're not my cronies Zubber, I stand alone on DF.

Is that your answer to me querying why everyone should shut up?

zubber wrote:^^ do tell your cronies to quit talking rubbish

If they stop inventing stats and believing fantastical interpretations of Islam, they'll have to limit themselves to drinking stories, complaining about 'others' and I guess swapping recipes and knitting tips.

In the mean time, we have yet another thread where:
1. loon stats exposed for what they are (fantasies) - thanks BB for posting
2. loons continue to embarrass themselves by assuming to know more about the Quran than anyone who can read with comprehension, and
3. a refresher on perspective is needed.

So, happy to oblige on point 3.
dubai-politics-talk/handy-guide-for-posters-perspective-t44200.html

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Sun May 22, 2011 6:21 am --

Bora Bora wrote:
Where is the quote does it say GLOBALLY??? It says: in AMERICA alone.

Your blogger is the one who says in America alone there are 5000 honor killings. The UN report I linked to said that there are 5000 honor killings GLOBALLY:

shafique wrote:Given that this report says that GLOBALLY there are about 5000 honour killings a year, I'm starting to think this is yet another case of Loons getting their stats horribly wrong (this is from a UN report from 2000):
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/english/ch03.html

Which is right - the blogger or the UN?

Of the 128 women murdered in 2009 in the USA (who were not 'white' or 'black') - how many were murdered in so-called honor killings? I suspect less than a hundred, and perhaps less than 10. When you work out that figure, you can then calculate the % of murders in the USA that were 'honor killings'.

I think that you'll find that it is much lower than the 0.5% I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Stats don't lie.

Cheers,
Shafique

I didn't take the word of a blogger, but of that of a well respected educated individual (Pikes). If I put any value to the blogger, then I would have to consider putting value into what individual with no credentials (other than an accounting degree?) has to say on a forum.

Al Shaf you really have issues. I don't have any stats to prove that fact. The fact is, I don't need any as you do such a good job of proving that yourself.

Bora Bora wrote:One murderer convicted? Shaf, there are many convicted.
...

I'm a little suspicious of the blogger (gadfly?!?!) but this quote is taken from a news publication,

Notice the number: 5,000!!! a year!!!

Muslims number somewhere between 3.3 and 7.0 million in the US today, but Daniel Pipes believes that 7 million is a high number. J. Grant Swank writes "In America alone, there are [u][b]5,000 so-called 'honor killing' deaths every year. Five thousand!"

I thought I would stick to the US. The UK numbers are probably much higher.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much..


I did notice the number. I noticed that it was probably a complete fabrication. It appears I wasn't wrong.

The 'news publication' seems to be out by an order of 1000 (honour killings in the USA not around 5000 a year, probably closer to 5 a year - being my guess). Do you wish to try again at finding out what the actual number is? (I do note that the story is now 'I don't have any facts' - but hey, perhaps you'll have another go??)

I therefore still think that more than 99.5% of murders in the USA are not honour killings. Facts, maam, just the facts.

Cheers,
Shafique

So what you "think" are facts. Oh, OK.

Shaf, in some instances you tend to destroy the very thing you attempt to defend. In other instances you prove yourself wrong with your attempt to defend. I know you can't absorb that because you are too determined to see yourself right. A fanatic - about anything - is not healthy and is never open for "discussion".

No one can have a debate with you because you can see only one side and can't give thought to the possibility that there is more than one side to an argument. The "more than one side" is that there are other opinions which you fail to see because you are so blinded by your own cause - which is "educating people" about Islam. You haven't "educated" anyone. Did you ever consider the possibility that you could be wrong about anything and the fact that you are not - repeat NOT - an expert on anything??? The "anything" I refer to is very limited because you haven't shown a talent to discuss/debate/acknowledge other than defending Islam.

It's hard to take someone serious that has to resort to name calling and put downs all the time to make a point. Pick up your toys and put them back in the pram.

Toys? Moi?

You brought up a dodgy statistic of 5000 honour killings in the USA per year. Not me.

I guessed that the % is actually less than 0.5% - i.e. that this one case of murder in the OP is just a small fraction of the murders that take place in the USA.

Facts. Not hype.

Cheers,
Shafique

capsicum wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Key sentence 'confine them to houses until death do claim them' - that does NOT mean 'kill' them!

What happened to you Choc? you turning like muzzies, how can you condone unlawful imprisonment, reckless endangerment and may be more crimes (manslaughter).
You will notice that no muzzies, including Shafique rejects the quran and this verses 415, they only avoid the matter hiding like cowards.

Excuse me! I object to ALL religions if it be known! However, people seem to find it very easy to have a go at certain religions. May I remind you of the 'crusades' and the willful killing that went on there in 'God's' name! You cannot tar an entire religion just on the actions of a few. Plus honour killings are cultural NOT necessarily religious. It's all open to interpretation.

I have an open mind and see things from lots of different angles, not the blinkered views like some.

How do some of you from other religions besides Islam feel about the nasty quotes about how women should be treated in your religious texts?

Lots of killing has been done under the guise of true religion because conveniently people can interpret a lot from the texts.

shafique wrote:Toys? Moi?

You brought up a dodgy statistic of 5000 honour killings in the USA per year. Not me.

I guessed that the % is actually less than 0.5% - i.e. that this one case of murder in the OP is just a small fraction of the murders that take place in the USA.

Facts. Not hype.

Cheers,
Shafique

So you are also the expert in stats and decide what stats are dodgy?? One case of murder?? Thank you for acknowleding that there is no difference between murder and honor killing, which I previously pointed out. To repeat: honor killing is a new import to the US. It's just that the term honor killing isn't on the charge list. I'm sure over time it will be as common as the word "terrorist" has become in the US.

I'm sure that in the future the US courts will be hearing more murder cases where the term honor killing will be used. As it stands in the courts now, it's just plain murder. It's the murderer on trial that justifies it and use it as a defense by muttering the words "honor killing". That defense to justify murder and get a walk on murder charges may work in Pakistan, by not in the States.

Seems you are, as usual, selective in your reading or "forgot" that I posted others. You really should stop and get a grip on something else because it must be hard to type with one hand.

Yes, when presented with ridiculous statistics and I'm asked to take note of them, I do make judgments.

You presented a wild statistic that you said had some credibility. I'm not sorry for pointing out that it was a ridiculous figure (5000 honour killings a year in the USA alone).

All the bluster in the world won't disguise this loon exaggeration you cited as fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

Bora, just apply DK's logic to Sir Shafique and tell him he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about because he doesn't live in the States. Job done!

shafique wrote:Yes, when presented with ridiculous statistics and I'm asked to take note of them, I do make judgments.

You presented a wild statistic that you said had some credibility. I'm not sorry for pointing out that it was a ridiculous figure (5000 honour killings a year in the USA alone).

All the bluster in the world won't disguise this loon exaggeration you cited as fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

Once again, that is nothing more than your opinion, and your opinion is not the final word and it appears not necessarily shared (from the looks of this thread and so many other threads) by others. Of course that doesn't make you wrong, but it certainly doesn't make you right. In most cases it just makes you look foolish.

If they stop inventing stats and believing fantastical interpretations of Islam, they'll have to limit themselves to drinking stories, complaining about 'others' and I guess swapping recipes and knitting tips.

Well thank you, Sir Shafique for acknowledging we discuss a range of topics, unlike you who can only discuss Islam 24/7. Yawnnnn.
As for complaining about others, well there are a few who harp on about their foe list and you'll be one of those, are you not?

Yes, I keep saying I don't know the exact figure of honour killings in the USA and that I guess it is less than 0.5% of the murders there.

I have looked up the stats for 2009 and of the 13,600 murders, less than 130 were of women who weren't white or black (I'm assuming the honour killings were of asian/arab women). I presented UN stats that estimated the GLOBAL murders of women for 'honour killing' at around 5000.

I also stated that one shouldn't trust what Daniel Pipe endorsed (from past experience).

I don't think I'm the one looking foolish for pointing out that these facts makes your 5000 honour killings a year in the USA look ridiculous.

Just wishing that your quote is right won't make it so.

Cheers,
Shafique

If they stop inventing stats and believing fantastical interpretations of Islam,

Well Shaf, tell us whose stats should we rely on as to be true, accurate and reliable? Those that you post and/or approve of?

As for fantastical interpretations of Islam, well anyone with a clear heard would agree that Islam is open to interpretation. I guess you perceive anyone having a "fantastical" interpretation is different from your interpretation. Should everyone rely on your interpretation because it's the purest interpretation?? Even Imans - scholars of Islam - (which I know you aren't) will differ on interpretation.

-- Sun May 22, 2011 2:19 pm --

shafique wrote:Just wishing that your quote is right won't make it so.

Who are you to say what is right and what is wrong??? I don't "wish" for the quote to be right Shaf. I don't convince myself that what I read is right or wrong, unlike you. You are a fanatic of another kind when it comes to being right, and incredibly blind to where you can be wrong.

I'd start with Government/Police/Judiciary stats. Homicides in the USA are one set of statistics we aren't short of information on.

We can then look at the lists of honour killings that make it to the media - given that each is reported, the listing of these isn't a problem. (Wikipedia has a list of names, for example.)

I looked at the UN site and saw they estimate the total deaths worldwide for this type of murder is 5000 each year.

My estimate remains that the incidence of honour killings in the USA is less than 0.5% - based on the simple fact that there are a lot of homicides in the USA and each 'honor killing' gets loads of publicity in the loon blogs (and there are only a handful of such cases each year, at most).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:My estimate remains that the incidence of honour killings in the USA is less than 0.5% - based on the simple fact that there are a lot of homicides in the USA and each 'honor killing' gets loads of publicity in the loon blogs (and there are only a handful of such cases each year, at most).

Cheers,
Shafique

Go back and read where I post the correlation between honor killings and murders and how they are considered one in the same in that they are murders, but it's the label that is incorrect, honor killing, and not widely used, but certainly does have a future. What part of that don't you understand??

My estimate that the honour killing murders only represent less than 0.5% of the murders in the USA acknowledges that honour killings are listed as murders in the statistics.

With respect, it is not a labelling issue - and even if it was, I was asking for some statistics to show what proportion of the total homicides in the USA are actually honor killings.

Heck - isn't it just easier to admit that you are embarrassed that you asked me to 'note' the 5000 figure and presented is somehow being credible. Don't blame me for taking note and pointing out it is not credible.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, loons have a problem with stats. Quoting Daniel Pipes citing this figure of 5000 honor killings was your decision.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin wrote:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Herve this is a verse that abrogates earlier verses in torah and gospel...According to the judaic punishment, while man used to recieve a 100 flog and a year's exile(from hadiths), women were used to given death punishment(stoning)..
God in quran gradually abolishes severe punishment for adultery/fornication as society advances and religion establishes itself I guess. Later this verse is also abrogated by another verse in chapter 24:2
(So god ordains woman "the other way" by given equal punishment to each)..
24:2-The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
In later verses, how this punishment will take place is explained...
24:6-9
And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
4:25
..... they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: ....... when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women.

Since stoning punishment cannot be split into two halfs, from the day verse 24:2 arrived this punishment has been abandoned and settled for a 100 flogging for both single and married adulterers/ fornicators...


And also in an islamic society (lewdness, unlawful sexual intercourse,indecency) as in the case of man to woman, man to man, woman to woman....makes no difference, it is simply impossible to bring forward 4 witnesses for punishment unless the person admits it themselves..

So how do you know which verse in the Koran should be followed - the ones that says to confine women for all time or the one about lashing women?

So how do you know which verse in the Koran should be followed - the ones that says to confine women for all time or the one about lashing women?

I guess experts look at the relations between verses and their quranic orders, as well as meanings and structure of expressions like, azab/al-azab – i.e punishment/the punishment..When they do this they also know the historical background of previous scriptures and from hadiths they also find out under what circumstances new verses had arrived to make connections..i.e..storyline..
I googled for the method to undestand quran, this is what i came across.
http://www.islamandquran.org/common-bel ... quran.html
(the net is not as rich as it used to be on islamic knowledge..I wonder what happened a lot of it as we can no longer find as many as we used to)..

shafique wrote:My estimate that the honour killing murders only represent less than 0.5% of the murders in the USA acknowledges that honour killings are listed as murders in the statistics.

With respect, it is not a labelling issue - and even if it was, I was asking for some statistics to show what proportion of the total homicides in the USA are actually honor killings.

Heck - isn't it just easier to admit that you are embarrassed that you asked me to 'note' the 5000 figure and presented is somehow being credible. Don't blame me for taking note and pointing out it is not credible.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, loons have a problem with stats. Quoting Daniel Pipes citing this figure of 5000 honor killings was your decision.

Cheers,
Shafique

Again, if someone doesn't agree with you they are a loon. So, if someone does agree with you, what label do they get???

When are you going to accept that you are NOT always right Shaf??? Exactly who are you to say who is qualified/credible and who isn't? I'm not embarrassed at all, but I gather you are because you can't even consider what I am saying or giving it any thought to see how it falls together - honor killing/murder. Nor will you accept the probability that honor killings were not seen as being such as it is not something that American culture is familiar with or aware of. It is only within the last few years this disease has infected American culture. Someone is dead, but the why/motive isn't always determined. I killed my wife because she was cheating on me/I killed my wife because she disgraced the family. Two different versions, but in American culture the both equate to murder and that is exactly how it would go down - as murder.

The US is not Pakistan or any other country where "honor killings" are acknowledged, accepted and widely known as it is part of and has existed within the culture for the longest time and isn't considered murder or a crime. My parents, grandparents, great-grandparents never heard of it, whereas your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and you yourself are all too familiar with it. It is new and foreign to the US. Can you get your head around that?

I don't think you are willing to grasp or consider what I am saying.