Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities?

Topic locked
  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 22, 2010
Is there a law that bans people from shopping bare foot and with speedos in France? Should there be one?

As I said, I'm just expressing my opinion that I would not ban something that I may find personally offensive and that even if it offended the majority of my fellow British people, I'd still argue in favour of the liberty of people to dress as skimpily as decency allows (and that means pretty close to naked these days) or as modestly as they desire.

But that's just me. I agree with the British politician (and others) who remarked that banning the burqa in Britain is just 'not British' - and this is despite the fact the majority of Brits in surveys are in favour of banning it. It's just not British.

My wife would ban all public displays of hairy backs if she had the power, but she doesn't have the power. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
A number of politicians in the UK this week have come out and said banning the burqa would be un-British, but this article from January hammers home the point. Note the opening quote from Hitler

Banning the burqa is simply not British
Dominic Lawson

‘As I was once strolling through the inner city, I suddenly happened upon an apparition in a long caftan with black hair locks. Is this a Jew? was my first thought ... but the longer I stared ... the more my first question was transformed into a new conception: is this a German?”

That is the passage from Mein Kampf in which Adolf Hitler describes how, walking as a student through the less salubrious streets of Vienna, he had suddenly understood the true threat that the Jews presented to the Germanic way of life. I hadn’t read those words since I was a student, but somehow they returned to my mind last week, prompted by the UK Independence party’s announcement that it would campaign to “ban the burqa”.

This is not to say that Lord Pearson, UKIP’s new leader, is a figure in the Hitler mould. Far from it. Having met Pearson on more than one occasion, I know him to be a civilised and considerate person. Yet in attempting to gain market share from the British National party in the run-up to the general election, Pearson is indulging in a lethally dangerous form of identity politics; and in his claims to be standing up for “British values”, the UKIP leader is in fact trashing them.

Pearson declared last week: “We are not Muslim-bashing, but this [the wearing of the burqa] is incompatible with Britain’s values of freedom and democracy.” First of all, he absolutely is “Muslim-bashing” — it’s of a piece with his gratuitous remarks in his first interview as party leader that “the Muslim population is rocketing; their birth rate is much higher than ours”. (In that Vienna passage from Mein Kampf, Hitler used the same old “they’re outnumbering us” tactic: “Especially the inner city and the areas north of the Danube canal swarmed with a people who even externally no longer bore a similarity to Germans.”) Second, how is it compatible with “Britain’s values of freedom and democracy” to use the force of the state to prevent a small number of law-abiding women from wearing an item of clothing they regard as part of their religious observance, and to arrest them on the streets if they persist in exercising their conscience in a way that harms nobody?

On Thursday’s edition of Newsnight, confronted by a formidably articulate female Muslim student (who was not wearing a burqa), Pearson tried a different tack. The burqa, he claimed, was “oppressive to women” and should be banned for that reason. His interlocutor was magnificent in her incredulity: “So we should criminalise women in order to empower them? Send them to jail to free them?” She might also have noted that UKIP’s sudden embrace of feminism is desperately insincere: it seemed to have no problem with its MEP Godfrey Bloom when he declared that the problem with women in this country was that they didn’t clean behind the fridge properly.

There are legitimate feminist arguments against the wearing of burqas: that it enforces the idea that women should be ashamed of revealing themselves in public, and that it is a pseudo-religious manifestation of male prejudice against women; but it is absurd — morally and legally — to force women to be feminist against their wishes. It may be that there are some British women wearing the burqa not because they want to, but because they are forced to. I suspect this would be a nugatory minority of a minority; but how would the law establish which of these women were wearing the burqa as “an act of oppression”? Presumably their husbands or parents would have to be arrested as well.

Does UKIP — and those who support its proposition — think that there is so little genuine crime in this country that the police would welcome this as some way of filling up empty cells? It would be analogous to the legislative fiasco of the banning of hunting with hounds, which occurred largely because Labour MPs regarded as deeply offensive the sight of the English gentry dressed in red charging around on horses — exactly as offensive as Pearson and his colleagues find the sight of women in full veil on British streets.

In effect, UKIP, which purports to be a libertarian party as far removed as possible from new Labour busybodyism, is appealing to the same lamentable culture of offence to which this government has so shamelessly pandered. As Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, recently pointed out, this “political and legislative culture that conflates irritation, offence, alarm and distress has promoted a general fear of difference and dissent”.

One could see a glimpse of this effect on the national character during BBC1’s Question Time last week, when the mooted burqa ban was discussed. A member of the audience declared that she was “intimidated” by the sight of burqas. Cue sympathetic nods from the panellists. Since it is not done for politicians to show irritation with any member of the studio audience, no matter how inane the remark, none of them said what needed to be said: get a grip, woman, and if you are genuinely terrified of your neighbour because she is wearing a full veil, see a psychiatrist about your unusual phobia.

Perhaps, however, this woman had merely been reading Pearson’s letter in The Times the previous day, in which he warned darkly that “one of the 21/7 bombers escaped wearing the burqa: the hidden face can also hide a terrorist”. That’s right: any of those veiled women you see on the high street — I’m not speaking from experience, but then I live in East Sussex — may not just be buying groceries; they may instead be casing the area to see which shops would be easiest to blow up. On the other hand, if they were not wearing the full veil, then the neighbourhood would be safer, since we might (according to Pearson’s reasoning) be able to tell by staring at their uncovered face whether or not they were a terrorist. This is, again, absurd, even if you believe that the true purpose of UKIP’s policy is to prevent Islamist terrorism; in fact, its purpose is much less constructive — to channel the fear of it in the pursuit of votes.

Nicolas Sarkozy, so transparently a mountebank, is attempting a similar burqa ban in France; it follows the banning of all “ostentatious” religious emblems, including the veil, from schools and public buildings. France, however, since its bloody revolution, has had a determinedly anti-clerical political culture, regarding religion as something that has no place whatever in the public realm. That is not the British way; we evolved — not least as a result of our own historical experience — a much more tolerant approach to open expressions of religious difference, which can be summarised by the phrase “live and let live”.

Christians in this country understand this well, which is why a ComRes poll last week reported that 85% of self-described Christians agreed that, whatever your faith, the law should protect the right to wear its symbols, provided they do not harm others. If the would-be populists of UKIP think that the average British churchgoer would be enthused by the attempt to stamp out the visible manifestations of a minority’s adherence to Islam, in effect to criminalise religious conscience, they are much mistaken.

In fact, they don’t even carry their own party united behind the new policy. One online UKIP forum contains the following comment from a party member: “This call to ban the burqa is simply pandering to those who might just vote BNP. I think in future we as frontline members will now find it a touch more difficult to convince the public that we are not the BNP in blazers.”

Precisely so; and it would be nothing less than UKIP’s leadership deserves. Shame on you, Lord Pearson. You have betrayed the very British principles of freedom and liberty that your party swears to defend.

dominic.lawson@sunday-times.co.uk


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 999908.ece
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 22, 2010
shafique wrote:I'd still argue in favour of the liberty of people to dress as skimpily as decency allows (and that means pretty close to naked these days) or as modestly as they desire.


I believe that people should adjust to society. I find that those scarely dressed women on SZR should take local culture more into account. I even remember walking around with a Muslima in Satwa. She wore a T-shirt that was too tight according to many. She was urged to redress.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
Hey, I guess my British values just are affronted by the idea of banning a piece of clothing. Should Hare Rama Hare Krishnas (or the Dalai Lama) be forbidden from wearing Safron robes in Oxford street? It's not customary for people to wear these robes in the UK, and we wouldn't ban them.

In short, I agree with the statement:
how is it compatible with “Britain’s values of freedom and democracy” to use the force of the state to prevent a small number of law-abiding women from wearing an item of clothing they regard as part of their religious observance, and to arrest them on the streets if they persist in exercising their conscience in a way that harms nobody?

And for those who are offended or intimidated by a burqa, I'm with Lawson when he says:

what needed to be said: get a grip, woman, and if you are genuinely terrified of your neighbour because she is wearing a full veil, see a psychiatrist about your unusual phobia.

And those who say it improves security:

Perhaps, however, this woman had merely been reading Pearson’s letter in The Times the previous day, in which he warned darkly that “one of the 21/7 bombers escaped wearing the burqa: the hidden face can also hide a terrorist”.

That’s right: any of those veiled women you see on the high street — I’m not speaking from experience, but then I live in East Sussex — may not just be buying groceries; they may instead be casing the area to see which shops would be easiest to blow up. On the other hand, if they were not wearing the full veil, then the neighbourhood would be safer, since we might (according to Pearson’s reasoning) be able to tell by staring at their uncovered face whether or not they were a terrorist.
..


;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 22, 2010
A muslima told me once that a burqa stems from the frustated mythe of Muslim men that a woman is a whore or a madonna.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 22, 2010
A dutchman once told me that some of his fellow countrymen get so stoned they can't tell their elbows from their...

Yes, perhaps that is a true story - or it could also be another one of your made up ones - who knows, loon logic when faced with evidence is a bit like Quantum physics - the normal laws of logic don't apply in this 'alternative reality' you guys construct! :)

I mean eh fantasises about Afghan boys and there's always been this orientalist fantasy about the Muslims and their s.exuality!

As Lawson says above,
get a grip, woman, and if you are genuinely terrified of your neighbour because she is wearing a full veil, see a psychiatrist about your unusual phobia.

:)
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
More projections because of insecurity, constantly repeating (copy pasting) others opinion. Not once, but often. Let alone the personal attacks. Somebody who is convedant about his/her own opinion doesn't need to act as a hanging record with other people's opinions and trying to ridicule others.

No, people shouldn't be afraid of burqa's. Although I can understand a child, who never saw a burqa before, perceiving it as a scary pinquin monster.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 23, 2010
You can ask RC whether I give people my opinion or not.

I'm just a signed up member of the Green community - and where someone has coined a phrase that matches my opinion I choose to use it. (And indeed, just look at the first post on this page ^ !!)

I try to avoid ad hominem attacks when evidence will suffice. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
When arguments fail, it should be easy to counter them in a clean way. Having to use personal attacks (and copy pasting the same opinion of somebody else again and again) just shows the opposite.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 23, 2010
I agree - but don't see what objection there could be to me posting reasoned arguments which expand on why I believe a burqa ban is un-British.

How is that a personal attack? Surely I'm also allowed to reply in kind when a 'story' is presented as evidence?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
Anyway, let's highlight what we agree on:

Flying Dutchman wrote:No, people shouldn't be afraid of burqa's. Although I can understand a child, who never saw a burqa before, perceiving it as a scary pinquin monster.



I agree - children are indeed afraid of the new.

My kids were all initially afraid of clowns the first time they saw them, and at the time our 2 year old was really scared of Monkey at Ibn Batuta Mall (the guys that walk around in costume) more scared of the monkey than of the scary tall dude.

The answer (in all the cases) is more contact rather than banning - but then again, that's just my experience and opinion.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
Lawson seems to argue that facial recognization/communication is not a British value. Not sure about Britain, but generally in the West children from a young age on are trained in facial communication. And also in every day life most (yes most) of communication between people is based on non-verbal communication, which is quite impossible with a woman wearing a burqa. IMO, wearing a burqa in the West (perhaps not the UK), means placing yourself outside everyday society. If that the choice somebody makes, there are consequences of course.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 23, 2010
With respect, Lawson is clear that it is the banning that is un-British. His point only makes sense if what is being banned is not customary in Britain - so a burqa is definitely not something that fits into what Brits would normally wear, but it is definitely un-British to ban it because of this.

I highlighted this point when I extracted the quote:
how is it compatible with “Britain’s values of freedom and democracy” to use the force of the state to prevent a small number of law-abiding women from wearing an item of clothing they regard as part of their religious observance, and to arrest them on the streets if they persist in exercising their conscience in a way that harms nobody?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
No argument that banning a burqa is non-British, thats up to the Brits. I think however that constantly covering ones face is against Western society values/habits.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
I 100% agree.

A burqa is certainly not part of normal Western values and habits. Tolerance means accepting other people's rights even when they are not part of values and habits you share, especially where they harm no one and are strongly held cultural/religious or even personal choices.

I'm glad we agree that it would be against British values to be intolerant and ban the burqa.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 23, 2010
Tolerance and respect should be reciprocal, otherwise it doesn't work. Tolerance and respect also means adjusting yourself to the society you live in. Hiding your face means the opposite.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 24, 2010
So are you saying it is ok to be intolerant if you believe the others are intolerant?

Specifically, in what way are English Muslim women who want to wear a burqa intolerant? It appears to me that a woman choosing to dress modestly in this way is not imposing anything on others, just denying men in public from seeing her face. In the presence of women and children, and her family, her face is uncovered.

If you can identify the specific acts of intolerance by these women that merits the piece of cloth being banned - if they did not exhibit this specific intolerance, would it then be ok for them to wear the burqa?

I trust that you are not going to be un-British and blame foreigners, or others generally of intolerance and then punish English ladies.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 24, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:...Not sure about Britain, but generally in the West children from a young age on are trained in facial communication. And also in every day life most (yes most) of communication between people is based on non-verbal communication, which is quite impossible with a woman wearing a burqa. IMO, wearing a burqa in the West (perhaps not the UK), means placing yourself outside everyday society. If that the choice somebody makes, there are consequences of course.


I agree.

-- Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:41 pm --

Shaf, you mean how Saudis, Iranians, etc. are intolerant of women going out uncovered? Plenty of other countries are intolerant of things that go against their common beliefs, so I don't see why Western (or whatever) countries cannot also decide to draw a line for certain customs that don't match their common beliefs.

Where do we draw the line in fact... If covering face and form so as to be unrecognizable in public is allowed, then why can't female "circumcision" also be allowed? After all, male circumcision is a custom that is allowed. How about tribal tattooing of children? What about ironing the breasts of girls going through puberty? Let's lower the age of marriage to accommodate cultures where marrying young is acceptable. We should respect everyone's cultural customs, right?
kanelli
Miss DubaiForums 2006
User avatar
Posts: 6979
Location: In the Jungle

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 24, 2010
Don't get me wrong kanelli - if a country wants to draw up a law that criminalises a woman for covering her face, then it is up to that country to decide.

I personally don't think states should be criminalising a woman for choosing to cover her face (nor should women be forced to cover their faces either).

I don't disagree with anyone who says that a burqa doesn't match their common customs.

I take offence that a burqa is being compared to circumcission and ironing of breasts - and I find it odd that 'respecting everyone's cultural customs' is being used as a defence for forbidding a piece of cloth that, crucially, harms nobody. I would use the same words to defend a person's right to wear the burqa!

But that said, I'm glad that at least British sense of tolerance and values of freedom and democracy means that it is unlikely that we'll ban the burqa. Dominic Lawson said it pointedly.
how is it compatible with “Britain’s values of freedom and democracy” to use the force of the state to prevent a small number of law-abiding women from wearing an item of clothing they regard as part of their religious observance, and to arrest them on the streets if they persist in exercising their conscience in a way that harms nobody?


FD - I still await what intolerance is shown by British women when they choose to cover their faces in public.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 25, 2010
I didn't mean to directly compare the severity, I'm just saying those are cultural things that others have argued that Western or other countries should be allowing because it is part of their cultural beliefs that they want to uphold. (And by the way, I think it is completely hypocritical to allow male circumcision but not female. In my opinion, parents should not be allowed to submit their male or female babies or young children to this cutting. It should be done when the boy or girl is old enough to decide whether they want their genitals cut, and of course it should be done by a surgeon with proper anesthesia, instruments and hygiene. We'd hardly see any more circumcision being done if it weren't perpetuated by parents inflicting this medically unnecessary cutting on their infants and young children.)

The only reason that women are covering their faces is because their cultural group (male dominated) make them feel immodest if they don't. A woman being brainwashed that she is immodest unless she is under a sheet to be invisible to everyone in public IS damaging to a woman. She is part of society and has every right to be seen and heard. As a woman, I cannot imagine having to live my life under a sheet in public. Think about it men - would you like to live under a sheet in public? How would it make you feel? You can even try it out, because no one would know that there is a man under there instead of a woman. Give it a try!
kanelli
Miss DubaiForums 2006
User avatar
Posts: 6979
Location: In the Jungle

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 25, 2010
You have a point about circumcission - that is certainly done without the child's consent. Dawkins argues that making a child go to Church, Mosque or Synagogue is tantamount to child abuse - the child can't choose not to be raised within a religion.

However, I take the view that a parents tries to instil the values that they think work best for society and that is an integral part of their role as parents. This extends to civic and spiritual values, and yes this includes male circumcision.

What reassures me about this one physical aspect of Judaism and Islam is that this procedure has not been shown to be harmful in any way (very few argue that harm has been done).

But when it comes to a matter of choice of clothing - I'm nervous about banning it, it just doesn't sit well with me. This would be the case if it were a Sikh turban or a Roman catholic's woman's veil (not that many wear them).

If there is a problem with the subjugation of women, oppression of women etc - then by all means it is a noble thing to liberate them and educate them (and the men). I'm all behind this.

But where the logic breaks down is where I see arguments which say we will help them by criminalising them. We will liberate them by locking them up if they persist. And what is most disturbing is that the arguments seem to stem from how WE feel when we see a woman wearing a veil, rather than ascertaining what the reasons are for the woman to dress that way.

You have made an assumption that a woman is being excluded from society when she chooses to not display her face in front of men outside her family. She indeed is exercising her right to be seen and heard as a person, and exercising a right not be excluded from society physically. She is also, arguably, exercising a right not to be judged on her facial appearance - but rather on her work and words. She'll also saving on make-up bills (in theory only - most women still paint on their faces under the veil!)

Could you not concede that just like you could not imagine living live covered under a sheet in public, others could not imagine themselves going out in public and not being covered in a sheet? Would it be kindness to force them to be less modest than they want?

I say we could criminalise men forcing women to wear veils - but why penalise women who choose to wear it?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 25, 2010
Written by an American Jew is a friend of a friend and he directed me to this.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... -response/
desertdudeshj
UAE, Dubai Forums Lord of the posts
User avatar
Posts: 6258

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 25, 2010
DD - excellent article.

Had I read it before, I would have just pasted it here and I would have had nothing more to say other than I agree with it. Point 4 makes many of the points I made, but in a much more efficient and elegant way.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 25, 2010
I actually had to laugh at point 4. Comparing wearing a mask due to contruction work to the experience of wearing a burqa. :shock:

Also with regards to point 4, we should ask burqa women themselves whether they feel depersonalized, but she is already jumping to the conclusion that women wearing revealing clothing are marketing themselves woman as se.x objects, without asking them.

Thats only point 4.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 27, 2010
Interesting article DD, thanks!

FD, you are right about point 4. That author talking about how her students were used to wearing a mask is silly. She was lecturing - the communication was mostly going one way, from her to an audience of students, and was not highly dependent on her facial expressions. They have seen her face before so knew who they were communicating with. This is not the case when most people meet a veiled woman in public. They have no idea what she looks like and need to two-way communicate without some important non-verbal cues.

Shaf, it is true that banning it shouldn't need to be done. The best solutions is trying to teach men and women than a woman showing her face is not immodest and not comparable to wearing a bikini around town.

Only once did a veiled lady initiate a conversation with me out of over 2 yrs in Dubai, which I found odd. (She was really nice, but I'd never recognize her again because she was covered in black like so many other women.) Plenty of women in headscarves have initiated conversations with me. There could be many reasons, and part of it could be my own conduct. I think that I do tend to ignore women who are veiled. If I can't see any face, no expressions, then I feel a barrier between us. My eyes are drawn to faces, and I am more likely to initiate conversation when I see a smile and signs that the person is approachable. Maybe some think this is proof that veiled existence is better, because no one interacts with the woman unless it is under her own initiative. All I can say is that I don't find being out in society with men and women so difficult that I would favour wearing a veil every day. You would think that more women would be choosing to cover their faces if it was truly an advantage in a mixed-gender public setting. Each to their own opinion I guess.

Cutting of skin is permanent, while raising kids in a religion is not, because they are free to change their minds later. Circumcision of male newborns has resulted in death, castration and deformity. The same for girls, though the surgery is not necessarily done as a newborn. It is fine if young males and females want circumcision when they are old enough to decide, but they should have all the facts presented instead of just "we do this as part of our culture and/or religion", or even "so you look just like daddy/mommy" or "everyone has it done". There are many organizations out there providing info, but here is one page http://www.canadiancrc.com/Circumcision ... ldren.aspx and this is a link to Intactivism's gallery of botched circumcisions. http://www.circumstitions.com/Botched1.html If I'm feminist enough to care about female circumcision I cannot in good faith stand by and watch boys be routinely circumcised, especially for flawed "scientific" reasons like cleanliness, possibility of catching disease etc. Anyhow, this is a whole other topic. End of my rant :D
kanelli
Miss DubaiForums 2006
User avatar
Posts: 6979
Location: In the Jungle

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 27, 2010
Kanelli - my issue is with banning and the lack of choice, and I agree about your ideal solutions too.

As for the article and point 4 - I think her example made a valid point, her individuality and means of communication to her students wasn't stifled - and indeed I've read commentators specifically single out classrooms as places where a Burqa would get in the way of teaching (even though in practice, when teaching children a burqa would not be worn)

However, my reference to point 4 was more for the elegant way in which she addressed the issue raised - rather than the opening example - eg:

More generally, I think one should listen to what women who wear the burqa say they think it means before opining. Even if one feels convinced that depersonalization is what’s going on, that might be a reason for not liking that mode of dress, but why would it be a reason for banning it? If the burqa were uniquely depersonalizing, we could at least debate this point: but, as I pointed out, a lot of revealing clothing is plausibly seen as a way of marketing a woman as s.ex objects, and that is itself a form of depersonalization.


I think this is a powerful argument against the banning of the burqa. Don't you?

In a world where we all can be educated to respect each other's rights - be it property or any other freedoms, then laws, police and prisons would all be unnecessary. In the imperfect world we live in, society has to choose where to draw the line and what actions should be criminalised.

Criminialising a lady for choosing to cover her face with a piece of cloth out of a sense of modest or religous motivation is un-British to me, in the sense that it goes against our values of tolerance.

I agree with you that education can (and should) be used to counter any forced wearing of the veil - but I'm always wary of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But as you say, each to their own opinion - and some women do choose to wear a veil. (And indeed many Muslims share exactly the same view you have expressed about why THEY would feel uncomfortable wearing a veil - I know my mum and wife won't wear a veil for pretty much the same reasons.)

I conceded that male circumcission is indeed practically permanent - but I don't have a problem with this. For Muslims and Jews it is a religious rite, not one done for health benefits - it is done because God told us to it. I suspect we'd also have different opinions about the risk/benefits of the procedure - but let's leave that for another thread/time.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Decoys jews necessary in more European cities? Jul 27, 2010
Another gem from the article when she writes about seperation of religion and state:

Separation is not total, even in France: thus, a fire in a burning church would still be put out by the public fire department; churches still get the use of the public water supply and the public sewer system.
Flying Dutchman
Dubai Forums Zealot
Posts: 3792
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 28, 2010
Shaf, I do agree those are compelling arguments not to ban the burqa or veil, but still it must be balanced with the view in society that people are more comfortable with seeing the face and general figure of those in public. Masks, big hats, hoods, pulled up neck scarves, large sunglasses and especially combinations of those things also create unease. Those aren't banned, so I suppose it is another point in favour of not banning veils or burqas.

Too bad more men don't try to live for a month wearing a burqa in public. Maybe it wouldn't change their minds on teaching their wives and daughters to wear it anyway...

Shaf, I would think that your wife and mum would not wear the veil for the simple fact that the Quran doesn't say that women should wear it. :)
kanelli
Miss DubaiForums 2006
User avatar
Posts: 6979
Location: In the Jungle

  • Reply
Re: Decoys Jews Necessary In More European Cities? Jul 28, 2010
I agree - I think the burqa owes more to Middle East custom than to Islamic teaching. In the Middle East, covering one's face was/is indeed a sign of modesty (as well as a practical issue when living in sandy conditions).

It was culturally immodest to even display one's ankle in Victorian times in Europe, so in that culture and time, covering all one's lower half of the body was modest.

Now, I agree that women should be free to decide on their levels of 'covering up' - but I would not want to ban someone who wished to dress like their great grandmothers, or those who choose to wear Middle Eastern clothes.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

posting in Dubai Politics TalkForum Rules

Return to Dubai Politics Talk