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event horizon · Jan 30, 2011

Looks like we've found the cause for this phenomenon.

Time to pat ourselves on the back and move along.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1CTMejy7J

kanelli · Jan 31, 2011

A pitiful excuse.

Here is an interesting comment from a reader of the article.

"Thats some of it,but amongst other truths are the fact that these guys dont have the social skills or confidence to interact with young adult white women hence looking for vunerable and naive prey.Their culture is a root cause of their inability to interact and acccept women as anything other than a mother,sister, wife or sex object. Emotionally and socially they are less developed."

I can totally see this in men who are not allowed to interact with women as equal human beings - instead they are restricted to keeping male company all the time unless they are with their mother and sisters, or arranged wife. Women are third on the list in hierarchy - 1.God, 2. man, 3. woman. And if the woman is not a family member she has no status deserving any respect so she is fair game.

Still, there are plenty of men out there from other backgrounds who grow up mixed with females and they still try to prey on young and vulnerable girls. What they all have in common is that they tend to have the same view of treating the girls as objects that don't deserve respect.

shafique · Jan 31, 2011

Interesting theory - and one that can be looked at by a simple examination of the evidence.

One question I have - is the figure for 56 convictions in the past 13/14 years a UK-wide (i.e. National figure) or one that is only related to a particular region of England? (The previous articles and this one wasn't clear on this point). If it is regional - then shouldn't we look at the national figure too and see whether those committing these crimes are indeed mainly influenced by cousin marriages (and other theories based on skin colour, religion etc)

The information so far is that British men have been convicted of grooming since the late 90s. Of these 3 were white, 50 were British Muslims and the majority of these British Muslims were of Pakistani heritage.

A simple test of the theory would be to check of these 56 how many were 1. married, and 2. married to first cousins.

I presume the 3 white British men weren't influenced by the British Pakistani cultural preference to marry cousins from Pakistan (duh). So they obviously can be a control group.

We can then examine what other characteristics (other than marriage to cousins) these convicted criminals have in common.

I suspect it will be characteristics such as:
1. age
2. attitude towards women
3. education
4. social categorisation (socio-economic grouping)
5. ability to pull women
etc

We can then make an assessment about whether cousin marriage is a plausible explanatory factor given the evidence. Perhaps it is- but until at least the above facts are brought to light (especially how many of them actually are married to cousins) it will remain a theory.

We can also look into the possible cause that these men don't interact with females outside their family circles. This, I would argue, does not apply to England today - the British Asian men in question were driving around in flash cars and enticing girls into their cars (note that as Barnados points out, the vicitims included black and Asian girls too - it was not an exclusively white girl crime). These guys weren't cloistered and never met girls - they would have gone to school with them etc.

All that said, there's no excuse for the crimes committed and it is a good the pervs were caught and locked up.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Jan 31, 2011

Eight more charged with child grooming

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011 ... z1BmKjf3ue

shafique · Jan 31, 2011

This is from 'Pickled Politics' from a few weeks ago does contain stats, and an interesting view of the statistics and what they call the 'scaremongering' on the issue.

Jack Straw’s scaremongeringby Rumbold
9th January, 2011 at 10:23 am

Following the conviction of a mainly Asian group of Jack Straw spoke of a culture which sees Pakistani men view white women/girls as ‘easy meat’, and that this is a specific problem in parts of his area. Mr. Straw did not mention any other ethnicity, so one would expect to see evidence that Pakistani men in Lancashire were far more likely to be convicted on sexual offences then non-Pakistanis. Chris Dillow has the statistics:
http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2011/01/straw-statistics-bias.html

Table 5.4b of this pdf shows that, in the latest year for which we have data, Lancashire police arrested 627 people for sexual offences. 0.3% of these were Pakistanis. That’s two people. 85.5% were white British. In Lancashire, there are 1,296,900 white Brits and 45,000 Pakistanis. This means that 4.163 per 10,000 white Brits were arrested for a sex crime, compared to 0.44 Pakistanis. If you’re a journalist, you might say that the chances of being arrested for a sex crime are nine times greater if you’re white than Pakistani.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/stats-race-criminal-justice-system-07-08-revised.pdf

Most (if not all) sex offenders have contempt for their victims, and it might well be that some Pakistani sex offenders draw their contempt from their culture/background. But, on a statistical basis, given the far higher prevalence, as a percentage, of white people who commit sex crimes, Mr. Straw might well ask what it is about white Western culture that allows sex offenders to see their victims as ‘easy meat’. Asian gangs who go round grooming women/girls for sex need to be crushed and locked up. As do white gangs and any other combination of gangs. Based on available evidence, it is unclear why focusing on the racial element will benefit anyone, and given the statistics we have at present, is likely to reduce the chances of stopping such crime in the future (as resources will shift anyway from where they are most needed).

Update: Platinum786 makes some excellent points in the comments below:

(Reposted from the comments):

Straw mentioning race wasn’t helpful as he did it in a generic manner, Pakistani men don’t see white women as easy meat, British Pakistani sex offenders do, but if he had said British Pakistani sex offenders see white women as easy meat, it wouldn’t have been such a great headline, for the below reasons;

– The word British would have been used, giving these guys a British identity and background, which they do have, meaning they’re part of our society, not outsiders raping our women.

– It would have included the term sex offender, and frankly most sex offenders see their victims as easy meat.

Rather he generalised, and got the desired headlines.

There is a culture within the chav equivalent of the British Pakistani community to have relationships with underage white girls (which in itself is abuse), and obviously in the cases mentioned a greater level of actual abuse. The first tendency is no more abusive and racist, than the fathers of the hordes of teenage mums we face in Britain from other ethnic groups.

They target white girls, because the underage girls are naive, they are easier to access, no risk of honour killings, no risk of them being old enough to not be impressed by fake designer clothes and 20 year old Beemers, etc. These people are scum, but they’re not all race motivated sexual predators, they’re quite equal opportunities with it all, it’s just easier for them to get access to white girls.

There is no doubt in my mind these men have no value for women, but we are dealing with different levels of perverts. These guys locked up (not for long enough might I add) are the worst level, but there is a larger number of people in our community, young men, men in their late teens early 20?s, who don’t see bedding a 14-15 year old white girl as a problem.

As a community we don’t do anything about this. Part of it is because the people who know about it are their peers, not their elders, secondly, very few people know facts, we Pakistani’s live in Ghetto’s i know in our city anyway, these guys pick up girls from the City centre or the white ghettos.

Part of it is, the kind of lads who do this, come from families who don’t give a damn, these are the kind of lads who at school profess ambitions to become Taxi drivers of work in takeaways, they come from backgrounds where nobody cares. As long as their lads don’t marry a white girl, they don’t care who they spend the night with.

http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/11355

Dillon · Jan 31, 2011

Well It should be expected that a group of British Asians at pickledpolitics.com would want to manipulate the stats and attempt to create another smoke screen to cloud the media reports.

What would be interesting is what the usual suspects have to say about the comments of Nazir Ahmed in the OP article, as they could hardly call him Islamophobic , could they?

:lol:

shafique · Jan 31, 2011

Ah, I was wondering when the next allegation would be thrown out. It didn't take long

Shame that it's not backed up with any substance though. 'manipulate stats' indeed.

Anyway, it is worth reading the whole of Chris Dillon's piece (which was quoted in part above):

These remarks by Jack Straw irritate me:

There is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men... who target vulnerable young white girls.
We need to get the Pakistani community to think much more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about the problems that are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men thinking it is OK to target white girls in this way

My problem is that this sort of claim bundles up trivially true statements with contentious ones. It’s trivially true that sex crimes, however rare, are a problem. And it’s trivially true that some Pakistani men are sex criminals, just as some whites are. The question is: why bring ethnicity into it? Are men of Pakistani heritage more likely to commit sex crime than others?

There is a reasonable motive for asking this question. Maybe Islam’s different attitudes towards sexuality and women create a different predisposition among Pakistani men towards sex crimes. This is a reasonable hypothesis, to be tested against the facts. But there’s also an unreasonable motive - the outgroup homogeneity bias generates an unreasonable double standard: if a white man commits a rape, he’s just a rapist but if a Pakistani does so, he’s a Pakistani rapist. You wouldn’t ask the “white community” to look into itself if a white guy commits a sex crime, so why ask the “Pakistani community” to do so if a Pakistani does so?

And herein lies my irritation. Straw gives us no statistics to justify his claim.

Those that do exist seem to undermine his claim.

Table 5.4b of this pdf shows that, in the latest year for which we have data, Lancashire police arrested 627 people for sexual offences. 0.3% of these were Pakistanis. That’s two people. 85.5% were white British. In Lancashire, there are 1,296,900 white Brits and 45,000 Pakistanis. This means that 4.163 per 10,000 white Brits were arrested for a sex crime, compared to 0.44 Pakistanis. If you’re a journalist, you might say that the chances of being arrested for a sex crime are nine times greater if you’re white than Pakistani. If you’re a statistician, you might say they are 0.037 percentage points greater.

Now, you can quibble with these figures. Arrests could be a biased measure of the ethnic prevalence of crime: upwardly so if the police are racist, downwardly so if political correctness leads the police to soft-pedal investigations into Pakistanis’ crimes. But if Mr Straw thinks the police are failing to investigate crime properly, he should say so.

I don’t say this to make any point about ethnicity. I do so more to ask for better standards of political discourse. If you think there’s a problem of crime amongst a particular ethnic group, give us hard evidence of this; feel free to offer me some different figures than those I‘ve cited.

This matters because when we are discussing low-probability events - crime, risk, whatever - we are prone to all sorts of cognitive biases. The way to correct such biases is to use statistics. In not doing this, Mr Straw is inviting his audience to draw some inferences which might not be warranted.

He makes very good points. I second his invitation for hard evidence if you feel you have an ethnically based motivation theory.

Cheers,
Shafique

zubber · Jan 31, 2011

White parents, Wisen up !!!

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

zubber wrote:White parents, Wisen up !!!

And that is exactly the attitude that is at the core of grooming. This phenonomem exists in more Western European countries. In Holland they are called loverboys. Close to 90% is from non-European decent, and between 35-40% is from Moroccan, sorry Finnish, decent:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loverboy_(persoon)

The targets are vunerable white girls. Within the Finnish community this is excused with "she asked for it". It is not the fault of the Finnish boys or their upbringing. Again, there is apparently nothing wrong with you if you rob and harass women, its society's fault.

shafique · Jan 31, 2011

zubber wrote:White parents, Wisen up !!!

So should the parents/guardians of the Asian girls who are also victims of these crimes. Many of the girls are actually in care - which means that the state has failed them in these cases.

Barnardo's chief executive Martin Narey said street grooming was "probably happening in most towns and cities" and that victims were Asian as well as white. "I certainly don't think this is a Pakistani thing. My staff would say that there is an over-representation of people from minority ethnic groups - Afghans, people from Arabic nations - but it's not just one nation," he said. "I don't think this is so much about targeting white girls - because black girls are also victims. It's about targeting vulnerable, isolated girls."

http://news.aol.co.uk/uk-news/story/str ... ts/1499531

(Originally linked by Bethsmum in an earlier thread).

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon · Jan 31, 2011

shafique wrote:Ah, I was wondering when the next allegation would be thrown out. It didn't take long

Shame that it's not backed up with any substance though. 'manipulate stats' indeed.

Shaf you have a conveniently short memory when it suits you, a selective memory some would say :lol:

This subject has been covered before on DF including the stat manipulation, the subject matter is the grooming of vulnerable white girls as young as 10 by British Pakistani's and I don't see that category in the statistics you are attempting to give credibility to?

Regards

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Wallen

Prostitution is Holland:

Two anonymous vice officers of the Beurstraat police station who have worked in this area revealed in October 2005 that there are two main groups of human traffickers on de Wallen, the "loverboys" and a group known as "the Turks". The group of loverboys consist mostly of young Moroccan males who use romantic techniques to persuade young women to work for them as prostitutes. The Turkish group concentrates mainly on the trafficking in Eastern European prostitutes. An investigation into this group in early 2003 failed miserably: only a few arrests were made and the defendants were quickly released due to lack of evidence.

More on loverboys:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=iegCkMlnI_UC&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=moroccan+loverboys&source=bl&ots=eozL_vmiiM&sig=vliD0cBNaDKvn1S7cF_doTf4ShY&hl=nl&ei=G3dGTe3hBoyv8QPel6ylCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=moroccan%20loverboys&f=false

There is most certainly a pattern. Targets in general are white girls, the boys are Finns.

The enablers: "the girls are asking for it" or "its the parents' fault." In reality its the upbringing of the boys thats the core issue, together with their attitudes towards women.

zubber · Jan 31, 2011

"Trouble Doesn't come looking for a person, It is the person who seeks trouble"

Argue as much as you want , Society/Family are the root cause of all this b.s

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

zubber wrote:"Trouble Doesn't come looking for a person, It is the person who seeks trouble"

In the context of the subject of this thread: :pukeright:

zubber wrote:Argue as much as you want , Society/Family are the root cause of all this b.s

Of the perpetrators, yes.

zubber · Jan 31, 2011

Every parent advises their children not accept candy from strangers, in the case of young women it would mean -
Dont accept rides/drugs/alochol/invitations of whatever from people you dont know.

This is the basic teaching given from the home.

Predatory nature of people will never go away, such a problem existed in the past, does presently exist, and will continue to exist.

The victims are the women, therefore they are under focus, they should take the precautionary measures, and if they willingly put themselves in a vulnerable position, Something is going to happen.

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

zubber wrote: if they willingly put themselves in a vulnerable position, Something is going to happen.

Blaming the victims of statutory rape is very disgust

ing!

melika969 · Jan 31, 2011

Flying Dutchman wrote:
zubber wrote: if they willingly put themselves in a vulnerable position, Something is going to happen.

Blaming the victims of statutory rape is very ing!

I'm with you FD, again we have the "she-asked-for-it" logic here!

Berrin · Jan 31, 2011

Flying Dutchman wrote:The targets are vunerable white girls. Within the Finnish community this is excused with "she asked for it". It is not the fault of the Finnish boys or their upbringing. Again, there is apparently nothing wrong with you if you rob and harass women, its society's fault.

Who is a vunerable girl FD?, I presume all girls go to school to get some sort education on life, to wake up?
Do you think men can also be vulnerable as well?

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

Berrin wrote:Who is a vunerable girl FD?

Girls who are desperate for love and attention.

Berrin wrote:Do you think men can also be vulnerable as well?

Yes. Interesting question though. I havent seen the argument yet that "he asked for it", when a guy in shorts is gay gang raped.

yujinn · Jan 31, 2011

These men are most probably inbred themselves so they're already mentally dysfunctional to begin with.

Berrin · Jan 31, 2011

"Flying Dutchman"]
Berrin wrote:Who is a vunerable girl FD?

Girls who are desperate for love and attention.

OK why do you think girls are desperate for love and attention? Couse Christianity/Islam teaches affection/compassion of humans, parents mate and have kids as part of they love towards one another, families continue to exist on condition that members continue to care about eachother and that individual and social needs of each member assesed early on and met before they trouble..

Berrin wrote:Do you think men can also be vulnerable as well?

Yes. Interesting question though. I havent seen the argument yet that "he asked for it", when a guy in shorts is gay gang raped.

Why do you have to look at it from s.ex point of you only... certainly s.ex as part of street grooming is not the cause or the starter of a series of problems but one that is led by, amongst many social problems (in case of men)...

So just can you pls tell me how a man (who happens to be a heterosexual) can be vulnerable?

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

Berrin wrote:OK why do you think girls are desperate for love and attention?

A lot have daddy issues I assume.

Berrin wrote:So just can you pls tell me how a man (who happens to be a heterosexual) can be vulnerable?

Sexual frustation, and desparation for female attention.

Berrin · Jan 31, 2011

"Flying Dutchman"]OK why do you think girls are desperate for love and attention
A lot have daddy issues I assume.

Daddy issues what? All daddies love their daughters more so than sons I'd say..

"Berrin"]So just can you pls tell me how a man (who happens to be a heterosexual) can be vulnerable

Sexual frustation, and desparation for female attention.

Why is that? an educated, well groomed, high flyer, unreachable or else, say, a sincere pious men raised on high moral grounds don't have that frustration and desperation... So what's this sexual frustration and desperation of you about?

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

Berrin wrote:Why is that? an educated, well groomed, high flyer, unreachable or else, say, a sincere pious men raised on high moral grounds don't have that frustration and desperation... So what's this sexual frustration and desperation of you about?

By sexual frustation I mean people who cannot deal with their sexuality. Men who get aroused (or can understand that somebody gets aroused) by a naked toe or the sight of female hair are sexually frustated imo. Typically sexually frustated men use the argument "she asked for it", they cannot fantom by the lives of them that a woman who is proud of herself isnot asking not to be raped. The only way they can do that is viewing women as a commodity, not as a person with her own will and desires.

Berrin · Jan 31, 2011

[quote="Flying Dutchman By sexual frustation I mean people who cannot deal with their sexuality. Men who get aroused (or can understand that somebody gets aroused) by a naked toe or the sight of female hair are sexually frustated imo.

Hohh hoo You chicken you know you're gonna be trashed.. now your description of vulnerable girls changed course to be those with naked toes and hair. LOL. But hey I wonder what you name those vulnerable girls who are hunted by the well groomed, high flyer men with social status...LOL..

Typically sexually frustated men use the argument "she asked for it", they cannot fantom by the lives of them that a woman who is proud of herself isnot asking not to be raped.

But hey it was you talking about animalist side of humans unable to resist fornication...
If a girl agrees to an indefinite friendship(relationship)before a marriage that comes with s.ex in it , you cannot call it a rape, can you?

The only way they can do that is viewing women as a commodity, not as a person with her own will and desires.

I am afraid this is the radiating attitude of Men in all societies where marriage is not required for intimate relationships...(At least if it was, you could somehow reduce the numbers of men who's intentions aren't sincere and comitted...

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

Berrin wrote:Hohh hoo You chicken you know you're gonna be trashed.. now your description of vulnerable girls changed course to be those with naked toes and hair.

The vunerability of a girl and the reason for sexual arousal by sexual frustated men are two completely different things.

Berrin wrote:LOL. But hey I wonder what you name those vulnerable girls who are hunted by the well groomed, high flyer men with social status...LOL..

I call them vunerable.

Berrin wrote:But hey it was you talking about animalist side of humans unable to resist fornication...

Huh?

Berrin wrote:If a girl agrees to an indefinite friendship(relationship)before a marriage that comes with s.ex in it , you cannot call it a rape, can you?

If it consensual between two adults, no. Keywords are consensual and adult!

Berrin wrote: you could somehow reduce the numbers of men who's intentions aren't sincere and comitted...

This thread is about groomers/loverboys, by definition their intentions are not sincere! And it appears that those loverboys come from a certain cultural background.

shafique · Jan 31, 2011

So, cutting through the musings of armchair psychologists.. I note:

1. No actual evidence to back up theory
2. No confirmation that these 17 trials of 56 British men since the 1990s is for only one region or a National figure.
3. No explanation of whether the 3 white men, in this sample, and the unmarried men were indeed influenced by 'cousin marriages' to commit their crimes.

So, a lot of hot air and suppositions. Apart from contributing to global warming - what's the point?

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Jan 31, 2011

Flying Dutchman"]quote="Berrin"]Hohh hoo You chicken you know you're gonna be trashed.. now your description of vulnerable girls changed course to be those with naked toes and hair.

The vunerability of a girl and the reason for sexual arousal by sexual frustated men are two completely different things.

LOL.. What happened to your vulnerable girl who was desperate for love and attention.
This is where we are left...

Flying Dutchman"]OK why do you think girls are desperate for love and attention
A lot have daddy issues I assume.

Daddy issues what? All daddies love their daughters more so than sons I'd say..

Berrin wrote:LOL. But hey I wonder what you name those vulnerable girls who are hunted by the well groomed, high flyer men with social status...LOL..

I call them vunerable.

This contradicts you specific target of those hunted in streets...So now are you saying that in reality there are no vulnerable girls...They simply get it becouse they all want it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Berrin wrote:But hey it was you talking about animalist side of humans unable to resist fornication...

Huh?

So true isn't it? it makes no difference if we are men or women...Once a need is a need it is a need to be satisfied under whatever circumstances it may be found (That's of course if you don't care for it be within marriage)

Berrin wrote:If a girl agrees to an indefinite friendship(relationship)before a marriage that comes with s.ex in it , you cannot call it a rape, can you?

If it consensual between two adults, no. Keywords are consensual and adult!

How can you say that the relationship of a vulnerable girl is not a consensual one? What proof do you have when it's starting?

Berrin wrote: you could somehow reduce the numbers of men who's intentions aren't sincere and comitted...

This thread is about groomers/loverboys, by definition their intentions are not sincere! And it appears that those loverboys come from a certain cultural background.

If this thread is about loverboys/groomers you should not adress woman as vulnerable in a society where they are found to be free in which s.ex and relationships practised without the concent of parents or without the authentication of marriage...As you proved us that description of a vulnerable woman cannot be narrowed down to those walking astray on streets!!!..

Just read again what you said...

Flying Dutchman wrote:
The targets are vunerable white girls. Within the Finnish community this is excused with "she asked for it". It is not the fault of the Finnish boys or their upbringing. Again, there is apparently nothing wrong with you if you rob and harass women, its society's fault.

Flying Dutchman · Jan 31, 2011

Berrin wrote:They simply get it becouse they all want it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the mind set of a rapist.

Berrin wrote:How can you say that the relationship of a vulnerable girl is not a consensual one? What proof do you have when it's starting?

Loverboys encourage/force girls to prostitution, thats the whole point. Duh!

zubber · Jan 31, 2011

Flying Dutchman wrote:
zubber wrote: if they willingly put themselves in a vulnerable position, Something is going to happen.

Blaming the victims of statutory rape is very ing!

The victim should have been more careful

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