Terrorism And Islam

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Terrorism and Islam Nov 13, 2009
This is a good article on the subject:

Islam means the religion of peace. A person following Islam will find that he or she is surrounded by noble teachings, the aim of which is to establish peace between man and Allah, the Creator of all; between man and man; and between man and the rest of Allah’s creation.

How does such a religion deal with the issue of terrorism? And what does the word terrorist mean? Dictionaries will define a terrorist as one who systematically uses violence and intimidation to achieve political ends – or one who controls or forces others to do something by violence, fear or threats.

All these definitions are covered by two words in the Holy Qur’an, the sacred book of Islam: Fitnah and Ikrâh.

In the Holy Qur’an, God begins to deal with the issue of terrorism by teaching Muslims never to become terrorists in the first place. Two of the very first verses of our Holy Book say: ‘Al-Fitnatu ashad-du minal qatl’ – meaning that in the sight of Allah, ‘persecution, or making people constantly fear for their lives, is much worse than killing’. And also: ‘Lâ ikrâha fid-dîn’ – ‘There shall be no compulsion in religion’, that is to say, that no one has the right to force others into complying with their demands or compelling others to follow their line of thinking.

Allah Almighty warns the believers again and again that they should never abandon Him, the source of all goodness. Allah Almighty reminds us that it is those who have abandoned Him and thrown away all good, and divested themselves of every shred of human decency, that are the ones who will eventually resort to terrorizing others, forcing them into complying with their demands. The believers are repeatedly reminded that they would lose Allah Almighty’s love and His favors if they ever began to behave in that way.

But Islam does not content itself with these injunctions strongly forbidding Muslims from ever becoming terrorists. It also makes sure that the believers are made into highly moral, excellently behaved people, by inculcating those lofty human values that can turn them into people who sincerely love humankind without distinction of religion, race or social status. Islam no doubt encourages the logical and rational discussion of views with people of all creeds in a calm and dispassionate way, with the only aim that truth prevail over error and falsehood. But it also reminds us that it is error and falsehood as such that are to be hated and detested. The people who unfortunately hold on to error are never to be hated.

In Islam, an amazingly powerful emphasis is laid on developing love for mankind and on the vital importance of showing mercy and sympathy towards every creature of Allah Almighty, including human beings and animals. For indeed, love and true sympathy are the very antidote of terrorism.

It is related by ‘Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, the talented wife of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, that some desert Arabs came to him one day and asked: ‘Do you kiss your children?’ He answered: ‘Yes.’ They said: ‘We never kiss them.’ The Prophet (sa) said:‘What can I do if your hearts have been stripped of compassion?’ He also said that Allah Almighty has no mercy for him who has no mercy for his fellow beings.

The measure of compassion shown by the Holy Prophet (sa) cannot but amaze anyone who knows how rough and violent was the society into which he had been born. Abu Qatâdah, may Allah be pleased with her, relates that the Messenger of Allah told him: ‘It happens that I stand up to lead the prayer, having in mind to lengthen it. Then I hear the cry of an infant and I shorten the prayer fearing lest I should cause inconvenience to its mother.’

Far from inciting hatred and aggressiveness in its followers, Islam keeps on enjoining kindness and sympathy for all. The Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: ‘Charity is incumbent upon every human limb every day on which the sun rises. To bring about reconciliation between two contestants is charity. Helping a person mount his animal or to load his baggage on to it is charity. A good word is charity. Every step taken toward the mosque for prayer is charity. To remove anything from the street that causes inconvenience is charity.’

He incessantly admonished Muslims to behave well towards their neighbors, saying: ‘That one will not enter Paradise whose neighbor is not safe against his mischief.’

He also declared: ‘By Him in Whose Hands is my life, you will not enter Paradise unless you believe, and you will not truly believe unless you love one another. Shall I tell you something whereby you will love one another? Multiply the greeting of peace among yourselves.’

One day he found a mother bird beating her wings on the ground in distress. He asked his companions: ‘Who has done this?’ They said: ‘We took her young ones out of her nest.’ The Holy Prophet (sa) said: ‘Restore them to her. No mother must be tormented on account of her child.’

On another occasion, he found one of his companions setting fire to an anthill. He immediately told them to put out the fire saying: ‘No one has the right to torment others with fire.’

As Allah Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an that the true believers are: ‘those who suppress their anger and forgive people’, likewise, the Holy Messenger of Allah, Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: ‘Allah is Gentle and loves gentleness in all things. Make things easy and do not make them hard. And cheer people up and do not repel them.’

It is clear that the true believers and all other good, honest people are always on the receiving end of terrorism, never on the delivering end. Whenever such tendencies appear in society by which the peace is being disturbed and people cannot live their lives without fear, Muslims are enjoined to counter them first of all by reasoning with those responsible for the disturbance. The Holy Qur’an says:

Call unto the way of your Lord [that is the way of justice and goodness] with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in a way that is best. (Ch.16: v.125)

And the Qur’an repeatedly tells us to seek help from Allah Almighty with patience and p r a y e r. But if reasoning with those people bent on wickedness and praying for them fail to bring about a change in their ways, then Allah Almighty says, again at the end of Chapter 16, verse 126:

‘Then if you desire to punish the oppressors, punish them to the extent you have been wronged.’

Allah Almighty commands the Muslims that when things get out of hand, they should join forces to restore peace by use of reasonable force. They have been enjoined by the Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, to join forces if need be with followers of other faiths to do so. Thus, in the famous document known as the Treaty of Medina, The Messenger of Allah declared:

Article 1:
This is the treaty of Muhammad, the Prophet (the Messenger of Allah) between the Believers and Muslims of the Quraish and the people of Yathrib, and between those who follow them and join them in fighting (the common enemy).

Article 2:
And it is that they constitute an Ummah Wâhidah (One Nation) separate from other people.

Article 25:
And also that the Jews of the tribe of ‘Auf constitute an Ummah Wâhidah with the Believers - even though the Jews will follow their own religion and the Muslims will follow their own - and this will include both their friends and themselves. (Quoted from Reuben Levy in ‘Sociology of Islam, part I, pages 279-282)

Here, all the inhabitants of the city of Yathrib, or Medina, were called upon to join in fighting the forces that were terrorizing the citizens.

Muslims have been made to promise that they will help defend the followers of other faiths from unjust and cruel attacks as well. For example, in his charter for all time to come addressed to all Christians living as citizens under Muslim rule, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, states:

I promise that any monk or wayfarer who will seek my help on the mountains, in forests, deserts or habitations, or in places of worship, I will repel his enemies with my friends and helpers, with all my relatives and with all those w ho profess to follow me and will defend them, because they are my covenant. And I will defend the covenanted against the persecution, injury and embarrassment of their enemies in lieu of the poll tax they have promised to pay. If they prefer to defend their properties and persons themselves, they will be allowed to do so and will not be put to any inconvenience on that account.

No bishop will be expelled from his bishopric, no monk from his monastery, no priest from his place of worship, and no pilgrim will be detained in his pilgrimage. None of their churches and other places of worship will be desolated or destroyed or demolished. No material of their churches will be used to build mosques or houses for the Muslims; any Muslim doing so will be regarded as recalcitrant to Allah and His Prophet. Monks and Bishops will be subject to no tax or indemnity whether they live in forests or on rivers, in the East or in the West, in the North or in the South. I give them my word of honor. They are on my promise and covenant and will enjoy perfect immunity from all sorts of inconveniences. Every help shall be given them in the repair of their churches. They shall be absolved of wearing arms. They shall be protected by the Muslims. Let this document not be disobeyed till Judgment Day.” (Quoted from Balâdhar)

In Islam, every effort is thus made to protect the peace of not only the Muslims, but also of the followers of other faiths. Allah Almighty says:

And if Allah did not defend some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered. (Ch.22: v.40)

However, Muslims have been warned by the Holy Founder of Islam, Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, that when they enter the territory of those who have been terrorizing and harshly persecuting them, they should not lose all sense of perspective and justice, and be tempted to start acting savagely, like the terrorists themselves. The worst crime of ungratefulness would be that committed by a people who, having forgotten that they had just been subjected to terrible cruelties, start meting out the same, if not worse, cruelties to others. The Prophet ordered:

‘You will meet those who remember Almighty Allah in their houses of worship. Have no dispute with them, and give no trouble to them. In the enemy country, do not kill any women or children, or the blind, or the old. Do not pull down any tree; nor pull down any building.’ (Quoted from Halbiyyah, Vol.3).

So the only Jihad permitted in Islam is the war of the oppressed against the oppressor, the war waged to protect the peace of all people irrespective of their religion or creed. Tactics used today such as suicide bombing, etc. are absolutely out of the question for true followers of Islam. Allah Almighty says:

And kill not your own selves. Surely Allah is Merciful to you. (Ch.4: v. 29)

…and cast not yourselves into ruin with your own hands… (Ch.2: v.195)

Islam strictly forbids the killing of innocent, non-aggressive people:…no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors. (Ch.2: v.193)

These three verses alone are sufficient to prevent Muslims from crashing airplanes into buildings, or from sending suicide bombers to blow up innocent civilians.

Once the evildoers have ceased misbehaving and have been justly punished for their crimes, then Allah Almighty says:

And fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors. (Ch.2: v.193)

To sum up, Islam advocates three steps against terrorism:

To give an excellent moral upbringing to all Muslims, so that they become upright, just, moral, kind and loving people, thereby ensuring that they never disrupt the peace of others.

Whenever the peace is disrupted, to reason and argue with the evildoers, and sincerely pray for them, to make them change their ways.
If all reasoning fails, then to join forces with all good people to combat the mischief-mongers until peace has been restored, but always keeping the dictates of justice in view.

It is our belief that not only Islam, but no true religion, whatever its name, can sanction violence and bloodshed of innocent men, women and children in the name of Allah Almighty. Terrorists may use religious or political labels, but no one should be deceived by their wily ways and treacherous guiles. They have nothing to do with religion. They are the enemies of peace. They must be combated at every level as advocated by Islam, the religion of peace.

shafique
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Nov 14, 2009
Islam means the religion of peace.


Misconception 1

Islam is `the religion of peace' because:

o the Arabic word Islam is derived from the Arabic word "Al-Salaam" which means peace.

It might seem strange to think of this as a misconception, but in fact it is. The root word of Islam is "al-silm" which means "submission" or "surrender." It is understood to mean "submission to Allah." In spite of whatever noble intention has caused many a Muslim to claim that Islam is derived primarily from peace, this is not true. Allah says in the Qur'an (translated):

[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"]

A secondary root of Islam may be "Al-Salaam" (peace), however the text of the Qur'an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty.


http://www.missionislam.com/discover/misconceptions.htm

It also looks like you forgot to attribute the source of your copy/paste job.

http://www.alislam.org/response.html

It appears to be from the 'official' website for the Ahmadiyya community. Strange that you would lift an article from such an anti-Muslim source. By anti, I mean a site that denies the clear passages of the Koran and believes some guy who became preggers with Jesus was the next in line prophet after Mr. Muhammad.
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Nov 14, 2009
The main reason for posting the article was to clear up misconceptions that Orientalists and Islamophobes have.

We have established that you believe the quaint, discredited ideals and when cornered will seek to attack the author rather than address the facts.

I refer you to Hans Kung who has written about Islam, and also other eminent scholars and invite you to produce evidence from these people that support your Orientalist definition of Islam.

Your link to the Muslim society's page concedes that a root of Islam is peace - and that the main meaning is Submission to the will of God - but again, it is a favourite tactic of modern day Islamophobes to present snippets out of context and insist their view is correct. The misconception being corrected is that the primary meaning is 'Peace' when it is rather 'submission' and the secondary meaning is 'peace'.

This is the beauty of Arabic - Islam can be taken to mean 'the way of life of a person who Submits to the will of God so that there will be Peace - internally and externally' !


(But then again, I admire your chutzpah where you can claim the Bible contains no contradictions or insertions when faced by clear conclusions by Biblical scholars. I admire your ability to believe in things despite evidence to the contrary - some may call it pig-headedness, I think it is just a post-pubescent phase your going through and you'll grow out of it)

But, I always look for the good, I thank you for the link. I presume you also agree with the other clarifications made on the page and have now had a change of heart about Islam?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 14, 2009
We have established that you believe the quaint, discredited ideals and when cornered will seek to attack the author rather than address the facts.


Let me know where the opinion of Muslim scholars that Muslims are to wage jihad warfare against unbelievers has been discredited.

I also admire your chutzpah for you to claim that Islam does not allow for unprovoked, perpetual jihad warfare despite what all other eminent Muslim scholars have shown.

It should speak volumes that you have not quoted a single mainstream Muslim scholar in support of your quaint beliefs that Islam does not seek to conquer the world through imperial conquests, but I can understand if you're forced to therefore quote from 'scholars' who claim that Islam means peace when this is so easily refuted by what the Koran itself says.
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Nov 14, 2009
Your link to the Muslim society's page concedes that a root of Islam is peace - and that the main meaning is Submission to the will of God - but again, it is a favourite tactic of modern day Islamophobes to present snippets out of context and insist their view is correct. The misconception being corrected is that the primary meaning is 'Peace' when it is rather 'submission' and the secondary meaning is 'peace'.


Actually, if you read the article, the author pointed out that the way slm is used in the Koran only refers to those who submit. Other meanings are irrelevant since the context of slm in the Koran refers to submission. Epic fail on your part by failing to understand basic English and it should speak volumes that even if your explanation is correct, the author of your article claims that *the* meaning of Islam is peace, rather than a secondary meaning.

I guess the author's words from my article that to interpret the meaning of the word Islam in this way is a *misconception* weren't clear enough for you?
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Nov 16, 2009
Your whole outlook on Islam relies on taking quotes out of context and insisting on believing the discredited ideas of Orientalists are true.

At least people can now see you have no real arguments against what was written in the first post above.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 16, 2009
shafique wrote:Your whole outlook on Islam relies on taking quotes out of context and insisting on believing the discredited ideas of Orientalists are true.

At least people can now see you have no real arguments against what was written in the first post above.

Cheers,
Shafique


That the first sentence of the article was shown to be factually wrong?
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Nov 16, 2009
Only in your mind.

I notice also that you didn't clarify whether I was correct when I asked:
But, I always look for the good, I thank you for the link. I presume you also agree with the other clarifications made on the page and have now had a change of heart about Islam?


Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 16, 2009
Islam means the religion of peace.




Misconception 1

Islam is `the religion of peace' because:

o the Arabic word Islam is derived from the Arabic word "Al-Salaam" which means peace.

It might seem strange to think of this as a misconception, but in fact it is. The root word of Islam is "al-silm" which means "submission" or "surrender." It is understood to mean "submission to Allah." In spite of whatever noble intention has caused many a Muslim to claim that Islam is derived primarily from peace, this is not true. Allah says in the Qur'an (translated):

[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"]

A secondary root of Islam may be "Al-Salaam" (peace), however the text of the Qur'an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty.


Seems pretty clear to me. The author of your copy/paste claims that Islam means peace and, therefore, Islam is the Religion of Peace.

The author of my article, an Arabic speaking scholar of Islam, wrote an article discussing the top ten misconceptions of Islam (he is also a Muslim, so I'll ignore your Islamophobic rants). Misconception number one was debunking the false claim that Islam=peace and explaining that the primary meaning of slm refers to submission, not peace.

Furthermore, the author of my article examined where slm is actually used in passages involving believers and shows that the context only refers to submission. But hey, I wouldn't want you to show that Islam can refer to peace based on the context of passages from the Koran or anything. It's probably better to just sweep this under the rug and pretend none of this ever actually happened.

Nothing to see, move along. And remember, Islam is the religion of peace. Or else.

:/
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Nov 16, 2009
As I said, many of your quaint beliefs require a deliberate misinterpretation of facts - from the Bible not containing contradictions to Islam being a violent religion.

That said, I'm glad that you at least read the first paragraph of the article before racing off to Google for information that supports your view. ;)

Let me know what else you disagree with in the article and whether you have any intention of answering the question I posed about whether you agreed with the other points made in the article you linked to?


Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 17, 2009
When you're suddenly unable to address a post, you 'require' that someone answer your trivial and off-topic questions.

Me thinks this is another example of all mouth and no trousers.
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Nov 17, 2009
You could just say that you won't address the question - we all know you can't handle the truth and have to rely on selective quotes.

This example is just the latest in a long list - quoting a website which dispels a long list of misconceptions and then refusing to say whether you've actually read the link you gave and agree with what they have written.

It's like the Bible, Hugh Kennedy's book, the Quran, Hadith, my posts, your posts(!!) - where you admit you've not read them all and contradict what is actually in them. ;)

So, you only read the first paragraph of the main article, ignored the rest, and then Googled a web site where you only read the first paragraph again and ignored the rest.

I guess what they say about kids these days having short attention spans is true.

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Shafique
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Nov 18, 2009
You could just say that you won't address the question - we all know you can't handle the truth and have to rely on selective quotes.


Speaking of selective quotes, when are you going to address the fact that Islam *does not* mean peace?

Is the subject too difficult for you, shafique?
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Nov 18, 2009
It will be a long discussion if we have to wait for you to read the whole article posted or even the whole of the article you linked to.

The fact that you can't get your head round that Peace is a secondary meaning of the root of Islam just highlights the fact that you don't actually read the information you posted (pretty much like your selective quotes from Kennedy, Hadith etc).

But, to humour you, I followed your usual research path (one that I too sometimes use) and just Googled 'meaning of Islam'

The first hit gave this:
I. The Meaning of Islam
Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.


QED

So, did you actually read and agree with the other misconceptions in the link you gave?

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Shafique
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Nov 18, 2009
The fact that you can't get your head round that Peace is a secondary meaning of the root of Islam just highlights the fact that you don't actually read the information you posted (pretty much like your selective quotes from Kennedy, Hadith etc).


The fact that you can't get your head around to the fact that the context of slm in the *Koran*, when referring to worshippers of Allah, does not refer to peace but submission just highlights that you do not read the links provided and are not interested in actual facts, rather fluff pieces on Islam that are typically wrong.

So, did you actually read and agree with the other misconceptions in the link you gave?


Did you actually read and *understand* the quote that was provided from the link I gave?

Perhaps you can humor me, what passage in the Koran uses slm to mean peace in the context of those who worship Allah rather than submission?
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Nov 18, 2009
But, to humour you, I followed your usual research path (one that I too sometimes use) and just Googled 'meaning of Islam'


lol @ sometimes.

Once again, a friendly reminder, the context of how slm is used in the Koran is the issue and that is why the author of my link says that it is a misconception to equate the word Islam with peace.

Your mission, is to find a verse where slm is used in describing worshippers of Allah to mean peace as opposed to the passage that was provided which says submission.
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Nov 18, 2009
I. The Meaning of Islam
Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.
[/quote]

Strawman. No one has claimed that peace and submission do not both share the same root word (slm). The point the scholar made was that the meaning of Islam is derived from how it is used in the Koran - which refers to submission, not peace.

I've also contacted an Arabic speaking Muslim. Unfortunately, he makes it pretty clear that peace and Islam are two entirely different words. I suggest for you, next time, to arrive at conclusions based on what people who are actually experts on the topic they are discussing rather than an Ahmadiyya DOT COM website that is about as knowledgeable on Islam as you are on first century Judaism. That is, not very knowledgeable at all. Although I concede that you both enjoy writing long posts on topics you have little knowledge of. I think that has something to do with your desire to fool others into believing you know what you're talking about.

But hey, perhaps you'll throw a tantrum, as you have in the past, and insist you know more than everyone else?
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Nov 19, 2009
Perhaps when you've read through the rest of the first article and the link you gave, we can have a meaningful discussion.

Was my question about whether you agreed with the other misconceptions cleared up in the link you gave really that difficult?

I understand that you have a blind spot for Quranic quotes and Hadith that explain Islam's stance on terrorism - but please understand that some of us do take the time to read through what is posted and what we quote.

I fully understand that it goes against your cherished belief that Islam also means peace, but hey - you also believe that the Bible contains no contradictions, so it is not the first time you've presented beliefs that no expert can corroborate.

You can't present one Biblical scholar that agrees with you that there are no contradictions and that no verses were inserted by Pauline Christians, and yet you still hold these beliefs. Similarly you are taking a clarification of the primary meaning of Islam out of context and ignoring that it does indeed also mean peace.

That said, your silence on the rest of the article is what is most deafening and enlightening.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 19, 2009
I'm feeling generous today and will humour you.

There are many Arabic scholars out there on the web and also, you say, people you know who speak Arabic.

Ask them to comment on the opening sentence and explain whether they think it is wrong.

Islam means the religion of peace.


Note that the author is not saying Islam literally mean peace (salaam), but rather that it means 'the religion of peace'.

Ask whether this violates the primary meaning of 'A way of life someone chooses which is in accordance with submission to the wishes of God to find peace' (Arabic is extremely efficient in these things, I think you'll agree).

Please, no imaginary friends or googling for texts you can quote out of context - for once please try and not live up to the 'all mouth no trousers' reputation.

Then perhaps you can take the time to read the rest of the article?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 19, 2009
Was my question about whether you agreed with the other misconceptions cleared up in the link you gave really that difficult?


Of course I don't agree with everything the author wrote. Much of it was based on opinion, for example. However, the claim that Islam and peace are two separate words is not an opinion, it's a fact.

That would also be as ridiculous as asking you if you agree with everything Hans Kung writes about because you quote fragments from his books or interviews (which you haven't read yourself).

but please understand that some of us do take the time to read through what is posted and what we quote.


What about copy/pasting from a DOT com Ahmadiyya missionary website shows that you take the time in having a deeper understanding of Islam?

I fully understand that it goes against your cherished belief that Islam also means peace


Well, I actually think that it is a silly argument to make that just because if Islam actually meant peace that would automatically mean the teachings of Islam were peaceful.

You can't present one Biblical scholar that agrees with you that there are no contradictions and that no verses were inserted by Pauline Christians, and yet you still hold these beliefs.


If I recall, I have seen one Koranic scholar you have quoted from who supports your view that Islam does not call for perpetual warfare against unbelievers.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Nov 19, 2009
Note that the author is not saying Islam literally mean peace (salaam), but rather that it means 'the religion of peace'.


Err. I guess you just figured out the author was wrong as well.

I'll take this as you have conceded that you were wrong and that the article should be ignored since the author either made a factual mistake based on his limited knowledge of Islam or was practicing deception in order to win converts.
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Nov 20, 2009
:lol:

As I said, when you've read the rest of the article and also the link you gave, perhaps you'll realise the error of your ways.

I see that you are running away from the challenge of finding one person who agrees with you that the opening sentence is wrong : 'Islam means the religion of peace'

I know you wish it said 'Islam means peace' or 'Islam literally means peace' - but that is not what the author wrote.

So yet again, we have another example of bluster and 'all mouth, no trousers'.

;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 20, 2009
event horizon wrote:
You can't present one Biblical scholar that agrees with you that there are no contradictions and that no verses were inserted by Pauline Christians, and yet you still hold these beliefs.


If I recall, I have seen one Koranic scholar you have quoted from who supports your view that Islam does not call for perpetual warfare against unbelievers.


Thanks for acknowledging the fact you could not provide one expert that agreed with you views - by contrast, it was not one expert we gave you information from, but a mulititude of references in different threads dealing on Islam's teachings on war fare.

In fact, the first article contains Quranic and Hadith references that address exactly this point - that Islam does not condone terrorism (which includes the killing of Jews and Christians).

Now, it seems mighty strange that given you have quaint views about the Bible (and disagree with Biblical scholars) that you therefore feel you can present yourself as a Quranic scholar with a straight face.

May I suggest you sort out your beliefs about the Bible first before you try and convince us that you know what you are talking about when it comes to the Quran and Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 21, 2009
Thanks for acknowledging the fact you could not provide one expert that agreed with you views


Unfortunately, you were also unable in finding one expert who supported your belief that Islam does not call for perpetual jihad warfare against unbelievers.

Good point. Thanks for raising it.

In fact, the first article contains Quranic and Hadith references that address exactly this point - that Islam does not condone terrorism (which includes the killing of Jews and Christians).


No argument here - the Koran contains many contradictions.

Now, it seems mighty strange that given you have quaint views about the Bible (and disagree with Biblical scholars) that you therefore feel you can present yourself as a Quranic scholar with a straight face.


I learn from the best.

May I suggest you sort out your beliefs about the Bible first before you try and convince us that you know what you are talking about when it comes to the Quran and Islam.


Ok, I'll let you know.
event horizon
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Nov 21, 2009
I know you wish it said 'Islam means peace' or 'Islam literally means peace' - but that is not what the author wrote.


I can't argue over what the author intended to mean, only what he actually wrote.

I can understand that you are now ignoring the fact that on page one, you were of the view that the author was correct and claimed that Islam meant peace as well. (You went at pains to stress that peace was the 'secondary' meaning of Islam)

Remember your own posts? If you're having trouble, I can quote them on page two for anyone to read.
event horizon
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Nov 21, 2009
Cool, so let us know when you have:

1. read the whole article
2. found anyone who agrees with you that the author was wrong when he wrote 'Islam means the religion of peace'


You seem to be arguing that the author wrote 'Islam literally means peace'.


Your state of denial about us not providing any expert that disagrees with your interpretation of the Quran is endearing. It doesn't disguise the fact that not one Biblical scholar agrees with you that the Bible does not contain any contradictions (how could they?).

So, it appears you are happy to believe in fantasies about scripture - both Bible and Quran, and quite happily accuse others of being like you.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Nov 21, 2009
Just go back to the first page where you argued that Islam literally means peace.
event horizon
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Nov 21, 2009
How come a God sent religion when literally means peace can be of something else? when God ordaines responsibilites on us to be purief and refined in order to be placed in paradise instead of hell?
How come anyone puriefed and refined can show something else other than “peace” within himself, “peace” within the family “peace” within the community and “peace” within the world? Hence justifiying not only the literal meaning of the religion but the purpose of the religion as well.

Go back reading the articles you are provided from top till the bottom and then stop for a while and digest the information in contemplation and then come back and show some sort of deciency for meaningfull debates and appreciation afterwards.
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Nov 22, 2009
I see that eh has proved once again to be 'all mouth, no trousers', as he finally realises he misread the first sentence of the article and can't provide any one person who agrees the author was wrong to say 'Islam means the religion of peace'.

It is just another example of not actually reading what is there, or misunderstanding what is written.

The silence of eh on the rest of the article is deafening.

I predict that we'll soon hear that no one can provide any evidence that Islam's teachings on terrorism preclude perpetual warfare against all unbelievers (the ostrich defense - 'I didn't read it, so it doesn't exist') - and some more regurgitation of selective mis-representative quotes. :lol:

At least we should be grateful the posts are getting shorter! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Nov 22, 2009
event horizon wrote:Just go back to the first page where you argued that Islam literally means peace.


For the record, I think you've mis-calculated if you claim this and don't expect people to go back and read what I wrote.

People can judge whether I argued that 'Islam literally means peace' or whether this is just another one of your 'wishful' recollections.

Let's review what I actually wrote and compare with your statement above:

shafique wrote:The main reason for posting the article was to clear up misconceptions that Orientalists and Islamophobes have.

We have established that you believe the quaint, discredited ideals and when cornered will seek to attack the author rather than address the facts.

..

Your link to the Muslim society's page concedes that a root of Islam is peace - and that the main meaning is Submission to the will of God - but again, it is a favourite tactic of modern day Islamophobes to present snippets out of context and insist their view is correct. The misconception being corrected is that the primary meaning is 'Peace' when it is rather 'submission' and the secondary meaning is 'peace'.


Can't see me saying 'Islam literally means peace' - perhaps you didn't read the full paragraph?

But let's see further posts..
shafique wrote:Your whole outlook on Islam relies on taking quotes out of context and insisting on believing the discredited ideas of Orientalists are true.

At least people can now see you have no real arguments against what was written in the first post above.


and..

It will be a long discussion if we have to wait for you to read the whole article posted or even the whole of the article you linked to.

The fact that you can't get your head round that Peace is a secondary meaning of the root of Islam just highlights the fact that you don't actually read the information you posted (pretty much like your selective quotes from Kennedy, Hadith etc).


etc..

And I repeatedly asked:

So, did you actually read and agree with the other misconceptions in the link you gave?


You haven't acknowledged that you have actually read either the original article or your link in full - but hey, why let facts get in the way of a quaint belief eh?


:lol:


Thanks for allowing me to dispel another one of your quaint beliefs.

Cheers,
Shafique
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