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Well, you've managed to avoid both my questions and then ask me about the rationale of others! Christianity in Syria is a topic for another discussion Yosef, this one is about Honour killings by muslims, mainly, on the increase in the UK.

Dillon wrote:There has been no attack, hatred or final judgement from me, just two questions that so far are left unanswered;

Interesting perspective Dillon. You state that your questions aren't being answered. Let's see..

Dillon wrote:1. Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

Answered a few times above. See comments about homogeneity amongst immigrant populations from Indian Sub-continent and note particularly the populations from which those committing honour killings originated from. The common characteristic of those Hindus and Sikhs committing honour killings with the Muslims committing honour killings has even been highlighted in red in two posts above.

Question 1 answered.

Dillon wrote:2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

Again, interesting point of view. Shariah law cannot prescribe something that is against Islam. Islam does not allow honour murders. A challenge has been issued to herve, eh and also Dillon to produce a statement from a cleric that states that Islam/Sharia Law allows honour killings.

Ergo, Question 2 has been answered - Islam/Shariah law does not allow honour murders, neither do the religious teachings of the Hindus and Sikhs etc who also carry out these crimes.

I trust your confusion has been cleared up and that your emulation of eh's characteristic denial syndrome can be put to one side?

Cheers,
Shafique

Hindu’s, Sikh’s and all the other South Asians, whatever their religions combined don’t commit anywhere near the amount of Honour Crimes that muslims do in the UK so you fail again, and my question 1, remains unanswered.

If Sharia law cannot prescribe something that is against Islam, then why, in some countries does Sharia Law consider Honour Crimes of lesser significance and impose greatly reduced penalties to the perpetrators of such crimes?

You can issue as many challenges as you wish, I will not respond to them, as I am not an authority on your religion, this is why I keep asking the questions, which still remain unanswered.

To summarise;

1. Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

a, No religion allows it! But yet, muslims are by far the greater offenders?

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

a, Islam doesn’t allow it! But yet Sharia Law decriminalises murder by passing out lesser sentences for Honour Crimes!

So here we are still in the same place, as for your comments on who’s in denial? well I guess our peers will be the judge on that one!

The problem of Honour murders is a global one and found in many communities. In the UK we have a limited number of such murders each year and they are indeed from a subset of the immigrant community, made up of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. Muslims are by far the majority from this group.

The common characteristic is that the group has a particular cultural background characterised by low levels of education and age-old superstitions and practices. The immigration pattern of those coming to the UK means that of those immigrants who share this cultural background, the religious mix consists of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims - but with the majority being Muslims. This is reflected in the sub-groups of immigrants in the UK - eg Kashmiris in Bradford and Watford, Sikhs in Southall etc etc.

The religion of the Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims isn't the causal factor. The differing proportions of honour murderers is fully explained by looking at the underlying population of immigrants who share the educational and cultural characteristics that all such murderers share.

Imagining that Islam/Shariah law (or Sikh or Hindu teachings) are the reasons for the murders is an indication of wishful thinking, IMO. The challenge has been put out - produce a cleric that agrees with this theory that herve, eh et al have put forward. The silence is deafening.

Cheers,
Shafique

I am not avoiding your question, but I cant think of any verse in the Quran or Hadith that support your claim. If you have any reference please post it.

Presuming you are addressing me Yosef, what exactly is it you think I'm claiming?

-- Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:08 pm --

shafique wrote:The problem of Honour murders is a global one and found in many communities. In the UK we have a limited number of such murders each year and they are indeed from a subset of the immigrant community, made up of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. Muslims are by far the majority from this group.

The common characteristic is that the group has a particular cultural background characterised by low levels of education and age-old superstitions and practices. The immigration pattern of those coming to the UK means that of those immigrants who share this cultural background, the religious mix consists of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims - but with the majority being Muslims. This is reflected in the sub-groups of immigrants in the UK - eg Kashmiris in Bradford and Watford, Sikhs in Southall etc etc.

The religion of the Hindus, Sikhs or Muslims isn't the causal factor. The differing proportions of honour murderers is fully explained by looking at the underlying population of immigrants who share the educational and cultural characteristics that all such murderers share.

Imagining that Islam/Shariah law (or Sikh or Hindu teachings) are the reasons for the murders is an indication of wishful thinking, IMO. The challenge has been put out - produce a cleric that agrees with this theory that herve, eh et al have put forward. The silence is deafening.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well if anyone could be charged with being in denial it’s most certainly the author of this piece of fiction!

So now you’re attempting to claim that the vast majority of Honour Crimes in the UK are committed by muslims because they form the vast majority of the UK Muslim, Sikh, Hindu immigrant population and that they are all poorly educated and the only ones still following their age-old superstitions and practices? And no-body else is? You’re laughable.

Read the OP, 2,823 incidents of Honour Crime in 2010 resulting a 47% increase in just 12 Months in the UK alone and the figures are not exclusive and “a limited number of murders each Year” might be socially acceptable in some third world tin pot dictators backwater, one murder is one too many in the real world.

Perhaps you need to tell your brothers, the perpetrators of all this crime against humanity that it’s against Islamic teachings, as I believe they are the ones struggling with the concept.

Still no response to “Islam doesn’t allow it! But yet Sharia Law decriminalises murder by passing out lesser sentences for Honour Crimes!”?

The silence speaks volumes.

I'm amused that you think my explanation is laughable and am in awe at the notion you think I'm the one in denial.

I've explained why the majority of the criminals carrying out the so-called Honour murders and crimes are Muslims, and explained why the underlying reason for the crimes committed by the Muslims are the same reasons as for those non-Muslims carrying out the same crimes. Why would you think citing the statistics that show this breakdown invalidates the reason given is beyond me. Perhaps you're just padding your post??

And the suggestion that Muslims should tell the criminals their crime is unIslamic is stating the obvious. We are, as was posted on page one of this thread. Again, it appears you are just padding your post.

Where is the quote from a cleric that says Islam/Shariah law permits honour killing? I commend you for not doing a herve or an FD and just inventing one.

What is interesting to note is the original article in the OP does not mention Islam or Muslim - and is actually talking about an increase in total 'honour crimes' not quite what the thread title says.

But also note that the honour murders are part of a wider problem:

But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.

In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... lling.html


Cheers,
Shafique

"Islam doesn’t allow it! But yet Sharia Law decriminalises murder by passing out lesser sentences for Honour Crimes!"

If Islam does not allow it, then how come Sharia law does? The Sharia is based on Islam from sources of Quran and Hadith.
Give me any reference from the main sources of Sharia (Quran and Hadith) that support your claim.
To me it is all based on culture and not religion.

shafique wrote: Let me give you an example from the insurance industry. If you look at the number of motor accidents in the UK and the sales of woolen clothing items, you will find a very strong correlation. The months with the highest number of accidents are the same months where sales of woolen clothing items are highest - and vice versa.

Sales of woolen items are strongly correlated with motor car accidents.

However, there is no causality. The causal link is actually a separate factor. In this case it is cold weather.

Motor accidents are correlated to cold weather, and there IS causality there.


Now substitute 'Honour killings' for 'motor accidents' and 'religion' for 'woolen clothing', and 'cultural background and educational level' for 'cold weather'.
Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks Shafique , You could not say it better , then everybody understands with your short cut that "Islam" IS the causality between "honor killing" and "Muslims"

gertrude , thanks for proving my point that facts and logic play little part in Islamophobic beliefs.

You should get together with BM - she can help you with recommendations on courses for English comprehension.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm amused that you think my explanation is laughable and am in awe at the notion you think I'm the one in denial.

I've explained why the majority of the criminals carrying out the so-called Honour murders and crimes are Muslims, and explained why the underlying reason for the crimes committed by the Muslims are the same reasons as for those non-Muslims carrying out the same crimes. Why would you think citing the statistics that show this breakdown invalidates the reason given is beyond me. Perhaps you're just padding your post??

And the suggestion that Muslims should tell the criminals their crime is unIslamic is stating the obvious. We are, as was posted on page one of this thread. Again, it appears you are just padding your post.

Where is the quote from a cleric that says Islam/Shariah law permits honour killing? I commend you for not doing a herve or an FD and just inventing one.

What is interesting to note is the original article in the OP does not mention Islam or Muslim - and is actually talking about an increase in total 'honour crimes' not quite what the thread title says.

But also note that the honour murders are part of a wider problem:

But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.

In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... lling.html


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique, You keep requesting the quote from me, I've provided my answer once, I suggest you go back and read it again!

The original article, as you well know will not mention Islam or Muslim for reasons of PC, read it though and all will become clear which religious groups members are committing the vast majority of Honour Crimes in the UK, 2,823 incidents in 2010 up 47% from 2009, you may have provided argument in your own head for the reason why muslims are overwhelmingly the guilty parties but I see your argument as a smoke screen (as usual) and an attempt to spread the guilt amongst other ethnic and religious groups, so I don't accept most, if any, of your pathetically weak argument.

And just as a reminder, we are discussing Honour Killings in the UK, where everybody receives a compulsory tertiary education through their formative Years, not rural India, Pakistan or the mountains in Latin America, I wonder if the British Muslims frequenting DF might have something to add here?

Padding my post? It's not my post and I'm sure you wouldn't be that interested in responding to the comments on the post if you genuinely thought that to be the case. And the question of Sharia Law decriminalising Murder?

-- Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:34 am --

Yosef wrote:If Islam does not allow it, then how come Sharia law does? The Sharia is based on Islam from sources of Quran and Hadith.Give me any reference from the main sources of Sharia (Quran and Hadith) that support your claim. To me it is all based on culture and not religion.

Alas dear Yosef, I cannot do this as I do not have the answer, this is also a conflict in my mind as certain individuals here are telling me that Honour Killings are against the teachings of Islam but yet in some Countries, Sharia Law considers Honour Crimes of lesser significance and imposes greatly reduced penalties to the perpetrators of such crimes?

This isn't a claim as you call it, it's widely accepted and referenced as fact.

Actually Dillon, if you go back and check you'll see I issued the challenge to herve and eh to provide one quote from one cleric that agrees with their view that Islam allows honour killings. I then invited you to take up the challenge.

If you guys want to believe that Islam/Shariah law somehow allows/decriminalises honour murders - that will just be yet another case in the long list of Islamophobic myths that seem to be stubbornly held despite the lack of any real evidence. The common denominator is the Islamophobic tactic of taking examples of a minority of Muslims and then trying to generalise the misdeeds.

I also note that you haven't really addressed the fact that the OP does not actually state the religion of those carrying out the crimes, nor does it give the numbers of murders within those reported crimes. But hey, you guys seem to know that the majority are Muslim.. I guess you imagined the evidence in the OP?

Apart from that, it is fascinating to watch this epic episode of major league denial.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique, Major league denial on your part again I'm afraid.

Actually Shafique, I've answered ALL your challenges you deny as above, if you'd care to go back to read and digest them properly, but then again it wouldn't suit your cause to do so would it?

shafique wrote:If you guys want to believe that Islam/Shariah law somehow allows/decriminalises honour murders

Wrong again, in some Countries, Sharia Law decriminalises "murder" not honour murders (as you attempted to point out) and considers Honour Crimes of lesser significance and imposes greatly reduced penalties to the perpetrators of such crimes?

Strange, I was looking out for the answers to my direct questions.

Now, given that the article in the OP does not mention Muslims/Islam or religion - I'm still curious where all 'the majority of the crimes in OP are by Muslims' comes from?

Perhaps it comes from the same source that is giving you wrong information about Islam's stance on honour murders and crimes? Why don't you cite your sources? People may think you're just imagining things.

Cheers,
Shafique

Strange, you have already had the answers and chosen to ignore them! why should I waste my time posting them again when all you have to do is read, and this time digest, my back posts?

I do have a vivid imagination, but there's nothing imaginary about the OP and which religious groups members are committing the vast majority of Honour Crimes in the UK, 2,823 incidents in 2010 up 47% from 2009.

Not hype, fact to quote a turn of phrase.

Well, I'll wait for the facts to be presented then.

Imagining that the article in the OP mentions Islam/Muslims is just the tip of the iceberg of 'beliefs' presented.

After all, all I did was ask for sources for the beliefs..

shafique wrote:Perhaps it comes from the same source that is giving you wrong information about Islam's stance on honour murders and crimes? Why don't you cite your sources? People may think you're just imagining things.

Cheers,
Shafique

The facts have been presented in the OP. Read it, digest it and live with it, facts not Hype.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

My first post gave quoted experts which complemented he information in the article (which does not mention religion), and Andy et al all were saying the same thing - honour crimes, not condoned by any religion.

Are you now imagining you've cited sources for your beliefs? That's all good and well - but how do you expect me to react to your imaginary posts?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

My first post gave quoted experts which complemented he information in the article (which does not mention religion), and Andy et al all were saying the same thing - honour crimes, not condoned by any religion.

Are you now imagining you've cited sources for your beliefs? That's all good and well - but how do you expect me to react to your imaginary posts?

Cheers,
Shafique

You’ve already attempted to explain WHY muslims are mainly responsible for crimes of Honour in the UK, or have you conveniently forgotten this?

Attempting to turn this discussion into a Monty Python sketch by the constant regurgitation of past statements is only going to result in past responses, if it is against the teachings of Islam, then why are the perpetrators, overwhelmingly predominately muslim?

And the question of Sharia Law decriminalising Murder? Simply stating this is an “Islamophobic myths that seem to be stubbornly held despite the lack of any real evidence” doesn’t count for anything in my book, show me the evidence that Honour Crimes attract the same level of penalty in a Sharia court of Law than any other crime.

You’re simply in denial, you know you are unable to do this otherwise I shouldn’t have had to ask the question over and over again, you would have so much more credibility on the form if you were just a trifle more honest with yourself with the, so obvious, facts.

I'm simply asking you to cite the sources for your beliefs.

The article in the OP doesn't mention Muslims, nor have I seen where you've quoted any source which backs up the belief that Islam is somehow responsible for the crimes (on the contrary, Islam and all religions condemn these).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm simply asking you to cite the sources for your beliefs.

The article in the OP doesn't mention Muslims, nor have I seen where you've quoted any source which backs up the belief that Islam is somehow responsible for the crimes (on the contrary, Islam and all religions condemn these).

Cheers,
Shafique

Well you’ve attempted to do a lot more than simply ask anything, but as you now ask? No, it doesn’t work like that with me, you may recall part of my post a couple of pages back, as you claim to have digested all I’ve previously stated;

The original article, as you well know will not mention Islam or Muslim for reasons of PC, read it though and all will become clear which religious groups members are committing the vast majority of Honour Crimes in the UK, 2,823 incidents in 2010 up 47% from 2009, you may have provided argument in your own head for the reason why muslims are overwhelmingly the guilty parties but I see your argument as a smoke screen (as usual) and an attempt to spread the guilt amongst other ethnic and religious groups, so I don't accept most, if any, of your pathetically weak argument.

To elaborate on the PC statement, and as I’m sure you’re already well aware and fully understand, the biased Racial Discrimination Laws in the UK prohibit the identification of ethnic racial and religious minority groups in published articles and official Government statistics for the Public Domain, so why you would expect the Guardian newspaper would so blatantly and irresponsibly leave itself so vulnerable to prosecution under these laws, I find quite remarkable!

But to answer your question;

As official statistics do not exist, in the Public Domain, for the religious groups responsible for the Honour Crimes within the UK. The sources upon which I formulated my opinions, I readily found from reading the article in the OP, and various internet, newswire and published articles on the subject, and I recommend you, to do the same and not be persuaded by my particular opinion.

Surely you didn’t expect me to “invent” or “Imagine” official statistics did you?

As for your statement

nor have I seen where you've quoted any source which backs up the belief that Islam is somehow responsible for the crimes

Try this; The overwhelming majority of individuals found guilty of Honour Crimes in the UK, are muslim.

Dillon wrote:The sources upon which I formulated my opinions, I readily found from reading the article in the OP, and various internet, newswire and published articles on the subject, and I recommend you, to do the same and not be persuaded by my particular opinion.

The article in the OP does not contain any reference to religion, Islam or otherwise.

Therefore your beliefs concerning the linkage between the religion of the criminals and the criminality stem from your un-named sources on the internet and elsewhere. Hence why I asked you to cite these sources.

You will note that my statements have been backed up by referenced quotes from experts on the subject who say the crimes have nothing to do with religion, and have confirmed this from personal knowledge of what Islam teaches.

Cheers,
Shafique

Then can you please explain to me the following;

1, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

Why are you being coy about your sources? Did you just assume that the article in the OP talked about Muslims?

Both your questions were answered explicitly and stem from a misconceived notion about the facts - and can't come from the article in the OP, but from your un-named sources.

Here's the link where I explicitly tackled the two questions:
philosophy-dubai/honour-killings-increase-the-t48173-60.html#p394532

You'll see that I end the answers with :

shafique wrote:I trust your confusion has been cleared up and that your emulation of eh's characteristic denial syndrome can be put to one side?

Cheers,
Shafique

Aah yes, I remember, and here was my response to your pathetic excuses, where you explicitly tackled the two questions;

http://www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/honour-killings-increase-the-t48173-60.html#p394534

And I've told before about your failure at sarcasm, it just doesn't work, better leave it to the Mr's eeh?

Dillon wrote:Alas dear Yosef, I cannot do this as I do not have the answer, this is also a conflict in my mind as certain individuals here are telling me that Honour Killings are against the teachings of Islam but yet in some Countries, Sharia Law considers Honour Crimes of lesser significance and imposes greatly reduced penalties to the perpetrators of such crimes?

This isn't a claim as you call it, it's widely accepted and referenced as fact.

Dillon, this is what I am trying to tell you. Islam is totaly against it, but some people think more culture than religion. I challenge you and even those criminals who practice this habbit to justify this crime in the name of religion. No way.

What is interesting Yosef is that what you are saying about honour killings having nothing to do with Islam has also been explicitly stated by experts quoted (and fully referenced) in posts in this thread. The original article in the first post does not mention Islam or Muslims, but BM made a comment about Islam which you picked up on.

So, in summary, we have an article which does not mention Muslims and Islam and explicit quotes which say that honour killings have nothing to do with Islam, Sikhism or Hindusim. I even highlighted portions in red to emphasise these points.

Dillon seems to have picked up some contrary information from some un-named source(s) and wants us to explain to him why his un-named sources are wrong. Perhaps you'll have a better chance of explaining the basics to him? Good luck.

Cheers,
Shafique

I see many people dont like Islam here. Many topics in all section of this website attack Islam. If somebody hate Islam, it is ok but please keep it private better than hurting feelings of Muslim people. I think the only Muslim person here is you.

Yosef wrote:I see many people dont like Islam here. Many topics in all section of this website attack Islam. If somebody hate Islam, it is ok but please keep it private better than hurting feelings of Muslim people. I think the only Muslim person here is you.

Stop taking things so personally Yosef! No-one hates Islam! we are just here to counteract Shafique, who is the resident nutter. I guarentee that people walk away from DF and don't give it another thought.
If it wasn't for us Shafique would be talking to himself

Stick around for a few weeks and you will get the gist of DF

Yosef wrote:I see many people dont like Islam here. Many topics in all section of this website attack Islam. If somebody hate Islam, it is ok but please keep it private better than hurting feelings of Muslim people. I think the only Muslim person here is you.

Yosef, there are only a few people here who actively attack Islam and Muslims - most of the people in DF are quite rational and respectful, pointing out wrongs and rights regardless of the professed religions of the perpetrators.

There is a core of posters who post Islamophobic views and seem to believe in myths about Muslims and Islam. herve and capiscum are rabid Islamophobes who call Islam a voodoo cult and post messages celebrating the killing of Muslims and are proud to have nazi views about Muslims - viewing them exactly like Nazis described Jews (eg sub-human etc). herve even tries to convince people that Muslims should share his hatred!

The most extreme religious fanatic posting here is event horizon - a Christian from the USA who regularly copies from the Islamophobic websites and posts the hyped up anti-Muslim rants that are posted there. His extremist views concern again killing of civilians and terrorist acts - but he also has some 'interesting' views about contraditions in the Bible and beliefs such as talking donkeys and the earth stopping rotating:
philosophy-dubai/most-extreme-religous-fanatic-here-t41961-45.html

philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html


But the main issue is Islamophobia of the 'core' Islam/Muslim haters. They are characterised by their ill-informed posts which usually amount to nothing more than cutting and pasting from Islamophobic websites or bloggers - or in Dillon's case here, just statements which aren't actually referenced.

A good website which tackles the core problem - is http://www.loonwatch.com - as explained here:
dubai-politics-talk/cbs-reporter-xually-assualted-crowd-200-egyptians-t45566.html#p368136


Cheers,
Shafique