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Repeating your requests, and lightly veiled insults, isn't going to change any of my previous responses. and you still have to address my two original questions;

1, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

I've just asked where you got your mistaken assumptions from? I've seen the theories on Islamophobic websites and have checked the various groups who are working against violence against women in the UK - it is only the Islamophobes that make the link with religion, the others logically point out that religous leaders, teachings etc all condemn honour killings and that the issue is a cultural one.

Back in 2008, IKWRO estimated that the non-Muslim perpetrators are about one third:

While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators' cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation says about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu, Sikh and even eastern European.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/02/ ... ntentSwap2

Therefore, it is up to those who believe in the Islamophobic explanation to give us their reasons for disagreeing with the experts who say religion isn't the reason.

Sharia courts in other countries (and again, when you look into the details you see that most of what the bloggers say is hype - Jordan for instance does not have lighter sentences in their laws for honour crimes) don't explain why one third of these crimes are not carried out by Muslims.

Both questions are therefore seemingly based on myths and not evidence/facts. The first mistakes causality with correlation (2/3 is a majority), and the second is not based on any real evidence that we can go check - and in any case is countered by the fact that Islam does not condone these crimes and many clerics have stated this explicitly.

The experts who have looked into this categorically state there is no link. Islamophobic bloggers disagree. I choose the experts.

Cheers,
Shafique

Keep looking Shaf, you'll get there eventually, you've already found that muslims formed the majority in 2008, you just need to refine your searches a little, and let's not lose sight of what we are talking about, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim.

I followed your advice and looked a bit more:

I found one example of an honour murder in the UK - took place in 2010 and conviction this year:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sh ... e-12431942
(It was a Sikh, not a Muslim - and religion played no part as far as I can see, certainly not any supposed leniency in a foreign shariah court)


You may also want to just double check what I'm disagreeing with you on. The experts and I all are countering your mistaken view of a linkage between Islam and the crimes. Causality vs correlation. I can explain it again if you wish.

Reported levels of domestic violence in British Asian communities are lower than the national average...

Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, of the Muslim Parliament of Britain, says the issue is "not about Islam but about a tribal, rural mindset that says women belong to men and men must at all costs be obeyed".

Afzal, a practising Muslim from a Pakistani family, agrees, saying nothing in the Koran supports honour crimes: "It's the exact opposite". But he says some families will use Islam to justify their authority, telling a daughter that having a boyfriend is un-Islamic.

Britain's response to honour crimes may be evidence of a maturing multiculturalism, in which no cultural practice is tolerated or swept aside simply because it comes from a disadvantaged ethnic group. Afzal says more people are reporting crimes, extraditions of suspected perpetrators who flee the country are being pursued, some community leaders have become "champions" of change.

(From same article quoted in post above)

Cheers,
Shafique

Well it doesn’t surprise me in the least that you were unable to find any further evidence why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, it simply wouldn’t suit your argument would it?. And you’re allowed to disagree with me Shaf, that’s your prerogative, as you so often chose not to subscribe to Official Government Statements and Statistics, even when you’re presented with them, disproving your theories and/or manipulated statistics, there was no doubt in my mind you would ever believe anything I had to say, but that’s a subject perhaps for another day.

Thank you for your offer but I’ve already explained your mistaken analogy between Causality and correlation earlier (again) There is however a couple of questions I have which I’m struggling with;

1, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

-- Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:21 am --

One would expect levels of domestic violence in British Asian communities to be lower than the national average, after all they only make up a tiny fraction of the National Population, but the statistics regarding Honour Crimes against women in the UK are much different aren’t they.

I’ve heard all the rest in your quote before and let’s face it, the stats in the OP article don’t support what the muslim Parliament of Britain is attempting to claim, “muslim Parliament” I’m surprised you’re stooping so low as to provide quotations from such a Loony Christianophobic group of racist bigot’s such as this?

You are not having a good time with statistics and evidence provided are you Dillon?

Nothing in the article in the OP contradicts what the experts say is the root cause of the honour crimes. The article does not mention religion - so I really can't see why you think the stats/article supports your view. Your view seems to only stem from other sources, and sources you seem to be embarrassed about.

The quote about levels of violence in British Asian community being lower than the national average, is not talking about absolute or total numbers. But I suspect you knew that. (National average is what the level within the British Asian community is being compared to, and is lower than.)

1 in every 3 honour crimes in the UK are not carried out by Muslims. Another statistic you have to explain away. The experts and I have no problems addressing this - as the cause highlighted applies to all the religious groups.

The question you still have to answer is why you, herve et al continue to believe that religion/Islam is causing the 1% of violent incidents against women which the 2,823 incidents represent? The experts all disagree with you - and the only ones who support your theory appear to be Islamophobic bloggers.

I'm not struggling with any question about what the causes for honour crimes are - I've even helpfully highlighted in red what the reasons for the crimes are. But I can't take credit for pointing out these causes - they were all given to you on the first page of this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dillon wrote:

Yosef wrote:Dillon, this is what I am trying to tell you. Islam is totaly against it, but some people think more culture than religion. I challenge you and even those criminals who practice this habbit to justify this crime in the name of religion. No way.

You’re asking ME to justify the crime in the name of religion? I ask that question of the resident defender in every post! You should ask the question of yourself Yosef as they are your brothers who are practicing this evil, not I!

Not justify, I mean I challenge anyone to corelate this habbit to Islam. Even if people who practice this happen to be muslim you should look at their background. Look there is a sect called Druz we have them in Syria and Lebanon, they are not Muslim although they call themselves so but they are not. they are very different. Those people have very bad record in honour killing they prohibit marriage with any not Durzi person and they will kill as punishment for that. Their religion is against honour killing but people dont listen they still do!

Also we have a sect called Sabea I dont know how to say the name in English, it is an ancient religious group not Muslim. They also can be very mad about this and kill as punishment to clean the honour.

Why relate to people's religion when discussing honour killing? Even if those people happen to be Muslim, but they also come from different countries and cultures. And there is no source in sharia that justify honour killing. If anyone claim something about that then he is abusing name of Islam.

I think the article did not mention Islam because it know it is not fair to corelate this practice to religion.
Keep all religions out from this. Many people in this forum attack Islam I am reading old articles and I am shocked how some people believe Islam teach pedophilia and talk bad about the prophet. This is very sad

shafique wrote:You are not having a good time with statistics and evidence provided are you Dillon?

Nothing in the article in the OP contradicts what the experts say is the root cause of the honour crimes. The article does not mention religion - so I really can't see why you think the stats/article supports your view. Your view seems to only stem from other sources, and sources you seem to be embarrassed about.

The quote about levels of violence in British Asian community being lower than the national average, is not talking about absolute or total numbers. But I suspect you knew that. (National average is what the level within the British Asian community is being compared to, and is lower than.)

1 in every 3 honour crimes in the UK are not carried out by Muslims. Another statistic you have to explain away. The experts and I have no problems addressing this - as the cause highlighted applies to all the religious groups.

The question you still have to answer is why you, herve et al continue to believe that religion/Islam is causing the 1% of violent incidents against women which the 2,823 incidents represent? The experts all disagree with you - and the only ones who support your theory appear to be Islamophobic bloggers.

I'm not struggling with any question about what the causes for honour crimes are - I've even helpfully highlighted in red what the reasons for the crimes are. But I can't take credit for pointing out these causes - they were all given to you on the first page of this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hmm, very interesting reading Shaf, and to the contrary, we’re all having a right good laugh here at your squirming and not-so-convincing, misleading, confused and off topic arguments which of course is the 47% increase in Honour Crimes against women in the UK during 2010, of which the perpetrators are almost exclusively muslim and let’s not forget the unanswered questions I keep having to repeat;

1, Why the majority of perpetrators of Honour Crimes in the UK are in fact, muslim, When there are just as many members and more, of other religions in the UK with the same cultural values.

2. The other question that people keep ignoring? You know, the one about Sharia Law decriminalising Murder

-- Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:37 pm --

Yosef, I think we're of the same mind Yosef we're just addressing the questions we have in a different manner, but you do realise this thread is about Honour Crime in the UK and not Syria or the Lebanon?

Yes Dillon, and I know it is about the UK and not Syria or Liban, but I hope you also realise that even if 90% of people who practice this very bad habbit happen to be Muslims (in UK or in Pluto), you should not corelate it to Islam for what their stupid culture is teaching them. Peace

Yosef, the problem that Dillon has is that he has been found out.

The original article does not mention Muslims, the only experts quoted on the subject of honour killings explicitly say it has nothing to do with Islam or religion.

Dillon could not come up with numbers of Muslims committing the crime, and I had to find the quote saying that 1 out of 3 honour crimes in the UK are not committed by Muslims. (Contrast that with the belief that Dillon gives without any reference that the crimes are 'almost exclusively' by Muslims.)

Herve came up with a theory that sharia courts abroad condone Honour killings - but again this seems to have come from Islamophobic blogs rather than any real research. So yet another failure.

British Asians commit fewer acts, per capita, of domestic violence than the general British population - which as a total commit 3 million acts a year. The honour crimes represent less than 1% of that total. Indeed, of that 3 million total only around 0.6% are honour crimes committed by Muslims in the UK.

The evidence is now quite clear - only Islamophobic bloggers and those who wish desperately to believe them disagree with the experts who say honour crimes have nothing to do with Islam or any other religion.

No wonder they have to keep repeating their questions - for the evidence contradicts what the bloggers believe.

Cheers,
Shafique

The article does not metion that the honour crimes are committed by Muslims as this is not politically correct. The press rarely mentions a person's religion nor their colour, as well you know, Shafique.

British Asians commit fewer acts, per capita, of domestic violence than the general British population - which as a total commit 3 million acts a year. The honour crimes represent less than 1% of that total. Indeed, of that 3 million total only around 0.6% are honour crimes committed by Muslims in the UK.

British Asian? Surely you are British or an Asian? How can you be both?

Dillon could not come up with numbers of Muslims committing the crime, and I had to find the quote saying that 1 out of 3 honour crimes in the UK are not committed by Muslims.

The 2 out of 3 honour crimes are!

-- Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:42 pm --

Yosef,

Many people in this forum attack Islam I am reading old articles and I am shocked how some people believe Islam teach pedophilia and talk bad about the prophet. This is very sad


You should have been around a few weeks back Yosef and seen the abuse hurled at Jesus and his Mother, now that would have shocked you.

Shaf, what happened? You didn't use the word "loon" for days!

Double standards and special rights for muslums in the UK, honor killings and other unpunished muslum crimes.
http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=41304

^At least herve is proud to give us the sources of his conspiracy theories. I've already stated that the only one's who believe herve's theory are Islamophobic/ (and just for FD ) Loon bloggers.

I wonder whether herve will ever get round to seeing whether he can produce the goods:

shafique wrote:I challenge you to produce a direct quote from an Islamic cleric that says honour killing is ok. I suspect you can't, or you would have done so already.

dubai-politics-talk/taking-closer-look-honor-killings-canada-and-the-t47098.html

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:Shaf, what happened? You didn't use the word "loon" for days!

He's just clicked on that it's against the rules to call people names. He accused me of calling him names yesterday when I used one of his favourites. Numpty!

shafique wrote:Yosef, the problem that Dillon has is that he has been found out. The original article does not mention Muslims, the only experts quoted on the subject of honour killings explicitly say it has nothing to do with Islam or religion. Dillon could not come up with numbers of Muslims committing the crime, and I had to find the quote saying that 1 out of 3 honour crimes in the UK are not committed by Muslims. (Contrast that with the belief that Dillon gives without any reference that the crimes are 'almost exclusively' by Muslims.)Herve came up with a theory that sharia courts abroad condone Honour killings - but again this seems to have come from Islamophobic blogs rather than any real research. So yet another failure.British Asians commit fewer acts, per capita, of domestic violence than the general British population - which as a total commit 3 million acts a year. The honour crimes represent less than 1% of that total. Indeed, of that 3 million total only around 0.6% are honour crimes committed by Muslims in the UK. The evidence is now quite clear - only Islamophobic bloggers and those who wish desperately to believe them disagree with the experts who say honour crimes have nothing to do with Islam or any other religion.No wonder they have to keep repeating their questions - for the evidence contradicts what the bloggers believe.

Denial or abnegation is a defence mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and simply rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. The subject may use simple Denial, to deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether, Minimisation, admit the fact but deny its seriousness, a combination of denial and rationalisation, or Projection, admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility by projecting blame at others (Well they do it as well, it’s not just me you know!)

Sound familiar?

Denial, Minimisation and Projection, all in one post! Not to mention fabrication, assumption and wishful thinking, is there no end to your talents Shaf?

Denial is also the first of five symptoms associated with the onset of dementia, coincidence or what? I was half joking when I first mentioned Dementia as a possible cause for Shaf’s behaviour on the forum, but things appear to have got a little more serious now!

Forgetfulness is also a sign of the onset of dementia, which could account for the repetitiveness of Shafique's posts and the fact that he often quotes his own work.

Don't despair though! I've heard doctors can do wonderful things if caught in it's early stages.

Prognoses for Personality Disorders are often not good, especially for those too full of themselves. Remember the story of the scorpio and the frog? The scorpio can't help himself. Much like a drug addict.

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behaviour of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.

Do you have a feeling you are shooting hoops at a moving basket? Then you are dealing with a disordered person.

--- Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:32 pm ---

Bethsmum ,

He's just clicked on that it's against the rules to call people names. He accused me of calling him names yesterday when I used one of his favourites. Numpty

I think something much more sinister is going on, he is slavering to the admin.

I noticed that too FD. May be he is hoping to be a moderator again, or something.

Still waiting for any reference that does not come from an Islamphobic website. C'mon guys, I'm sure you can find at least one source that agrees with your view that Islam is responsible for honour killings to counter the experts that disagree with you.

Trying to diagnose an imagined psychiatric malady won't help you.

Less than 1% of crimes against women in the UK happen to be these honour crimes, and 33% of these honour crimes are by non-Muslims. I see that Dillon is trying to gloss over his assertion that 'almost all' of the crimes were by Muslims when 1 in 3 weren't.

But the point is not statistics of the numbers of Muslims committing these crimes (we've only seen excuses for why these haven't been provided), but rather whether anyone other than Islamophobic bloggers agree with the notion that Islam is responsible. The experts say religion has nothing to do with it, as do the Muslim clerics et al.

Cheers,
Shafique

Harrymartin wrote:Bethsmum ,Try to understand the root cause of honour killing and have some remedy for the cause.

What is the root cause of honour killing?

It appears to me that some men can't cope with their women folk having a mind of their own.

The irony of an honor killing is that it destroys the honor of that family permenantly, they are outcasts in society

shafique wrote:Still waiting for any reference that does not come from an Islamphobic website. C'mon guys, I'm sure you can find at least one source that agrees with your view that Islam is responsible for honour killings to counter the experts that disagree with you. Trying to diagnose an imagined psychiatric malady won't help you. Less than 1% of crimes against women in the UK happen to be these honour crimes, and 33% of these honour crimes are by non-Muslims. I see that Dillon is trying to gloss over his assertion that 'almost all' of the crimes were by Muslims when 1 in 3 weren't. But the point is not statistics of the numbers of Muslims committing these crimes (we've only seen excuses for why these haven't been provided), but rather whether anyone other than Islamophobic bloggers agree with the notion that Islam is responsible. The experts say religion has nothing to do with it, as do the Muslim clerics et al.

You do remember that your stats were from 2008 don't you Shaf and are not current?

Memory Loss and Minimisation, "of course we do it but you do a lot more than me", classic!

Have you taken your medication today?

LOL - you really don't get on well with evidence and stats do you? 3 million crimes against women of which less than 1% represent honour crimes in the UK.

33% of honour crimes are carried out my non-Muslims and yet you 'believe' that 'almost all' are carried out by Muslims.

But given that you give absolutely no sources for your beliefs/stats - it is best to focus on your main misconception: i.e. that you believe Islam is linked to the honour crimes and the only ones who support your view are Islamophobic bloggers - no expert has so far been quoted in support of this Islamophobic view.

Facts, not fiction.



Cheers,

Shafique

Hmmm, let's review the points subsequently ignored:

*Honor killings are carried out by religious Muslims, not uneducated or poor.

* Honor killings carried out by Muslims are carried out for religious reasons - a family member is accused of committing apostasy or having premarital relationships of some sort - all strictly forbidden under Islam.

*Actual honor killings in Hinduism are rare and Sikhs (a religion that is a hybrid of Islam and Hinduism) honor killings seem to be limited to wives, unlike Muslim honor killings where children are just as vulnerable

* Honor killings are universal in the Muslim world - all Muslim peoples, regardless of culture, geography and so on are known to commit honor killings.

* Islamic Law in several Islamic nations condones or has condoned honor killings. The Iranian Mullahs would be happy to testify that they condone honor killing violence. It isn't secular statesmen in Iran who make and enforce the law in the Islamic Republic.

* The law of retaliation in Islam provides convenient loopholes for honor killers. Honor killers in Pakistan are usually set free after the family of the victim (the same family as the murderer) requests a pardon. If Muslim society is generally supportive of honor crimes under an Islamic legal system, then it is virtually impossible for the courts to punish the perpetrators.

* Muslims, a religious minority in the world, carry out a majority of honor killings.

* The UK does not record official figures of crimes based on religion (and ethnicity?), so how did this 2/3 claim come about?

event horizon wrote:all Muslim peoples, regardless of culture, geography and so on are known to commit honor killings.

By saying All muslims do you mean every muslim is known to commit honor killings?

I also found this:

According to the pragraph 220 of Iranian islamic law, if father or father’s father killes his child or grand child, he will not be punished for murder.

here: http://iranhr.net/spip.php?article970
Can anyone explain why the Islamic law in Iran is like this? Because that is horrible.

eh, you really must try and keep up. The 2/3 figure came from the same source as produced the figures in the OP.

My question to you is focussed on your particular belief that links Islam with honour killings. Can you provide one expert quote that agrees with you? So far I've only seen Islamophobic bloggers and their spin (and a lack of any real evidence).

Andy- can't speak for the Iranian law, but that is horrible if true. Are they charged with any crime for the murder?



Cheers,

Shafique

Andyba ,

Iran is different case please do not use it as example. It is hard to explain to people like you the diference between sunni and shia laws. The shia laws are brutal and not based on proper sources from islamic hadith and quran. They believe two of prophet Mohammed (PBUH) are traitors and will burn in hell. They also believe that 90% of all sahaba (prophet compangians) are not proper muslim, even they were leaders of islamic conquest they still reject them. Shia generaly is making all the problems in islamic world. Hizballah is shia making problems between sunni and christian lebanese and israel. The syrian revlution today is being attaced by shia regime of asad which is funding hizballah. The regime in Iran is also shia and they kill many people in name of religion but it is not realy religion they just abuse it. Do not compare shia law with sunni law. Sunni population is 85% of all muslims. Shia is just 10% and others are Sufi.

In sunni law which is orthodox and original source which never changed it rejects the laws of shia because they changed everything.

Sunni law does not control politics but shia law is always want to control politics and control people. This is difference between them. In Iran you will always see the mullah in politics, but in all other muslim world you will never see a mullah working like a politician. Today I was watching a video on youtube and one shia mullah was saying that Quran is not words of God!! So you can imagine how shia is very messed. There will never be peace in the middle east because the shias will always make problems for everyone because they want to control all politics in our region.

eh is also just making up beliefs now.

He claims that honour killings by Hindus are rare. And that Sikh's committing honour killings may have something to do with Islam.

He is obviously not relying on any real research or experts! I suspect he just made this up or picked it up from a random blogger.

Reputable sources on violence against women actually say that Dowry deaths are as big a problem, if not greater, than honour killings. Over 2000 such deaths a year - 1 every 4 hours:
http://zeenews.india.com/news/lifestyle ... 14869.html

This is on top of honour killings by Hindus:
http://www.realcourage.org/2010/06/indi ... -killings/

Far from being rare, they are causing concern in India because of the rise in numbers.

Facts, not fiction.

Cheers,

Shafique

--- Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:12 pm ---

Edit:

Here's the info I could find about Iranian Penal Code article 220:

Discrimination in favour of fathers and grandfathers:..

..under the patriarchal provisions of the IPC, “a father (or paternal grandfather) who kills his child” (or grandchild) “will not be sentenced to qesas but to payment of diyeh [compensation] to survivors of the victim and ta’zir [discretionary punishment]” (Article 220). Survivors of the victim, i.e. the mother if the father is the killer (or parents, if the grandfather is the killer), generally forgo the demand for punishment.

http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/Rapport_Iran_final.pdf

The issue appears to be that the state will not automatically apply the harshest penalty for the murder, but will apply discretionary punishment at the behest of the surviving family. The surviving family, this report says, generally forgo this punishment.

shafique wrote:eh, you really must try and keep up. The 2/3 figure came from the same source as produced the figures in the OP.

Good. You should try reading the original article.

The UK does not keep official statistics based on religion (and race?).

So how did the lady arrive at the conclusion that 2/3 of honor killings in the UK are carried out by Muslims?

Yousef wrote:Iran is different case please do not use it as example.

Why? Is Iran not an Islamic state? Are their laws not based on fiqh, Koran and hadith?

Pray tell, where do their laws originate if not religion?

Yousef wrote:It is hard to explain to people like you the diference between sunni and shia laws.

Unless Shia are not Muslim, what does your explanation matter?

shafique wrote:Reputable sources on violence against women actually say that Dowry deaths are as big a problem, if not greater, than honour killings. Over 2000 such deaths a year - 1 every 4 hours:

Dowry and sati deaths are not *honor* killings.

I suppose it speaks volumes that none of my conveniently listed points above have been addressed.

Feel free to address all of the above that have been avoided throughout the entire thread.