Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated In Dubai'

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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 14, 2010
RobbyG wrote:
shafique wrote:I'm glad we agree.

It is about land - however to disguise this fact there is quite a strong disinformation campaign that tries to present the issue as a clash of religions.



Although in essence true, you should definately not forget that religious ideology is the major driver for this conflict.


I'd disagree that it is a major factor with Palestinians. Remember that on the Palestinian side, there are both Christians and Muslims - with many prominent Palestinian activists/politicians being Christian.

Initially, religous theology played little part in the desire for land - the zionists were secular - from Ben Gurion to Begin (who was also a terrorist leader of Irgun, and then went on to win a Nobel Peace prize with Sadat).

RobbyG wrote: If we were to exclude the ideology that is being used by intellectuals in both societies to gain support for the common cause, that would not address the problem of 'holy land' ownership.


Holy sites only form a small part of Palestine and Israel, and these were dealt with in the UN partition and subsequent peace proposals. The viewing of the whole of Palestine and Israel as belonging to the Jews is a desire of some Jews, as is the viewing that the whole of the land must be returned to Arab rule (or even 'Muslim rule') is only held by a minority on either side.


RobbyG wrote:Anyway, its a private property mess. Normally such dispute would be settled in court of law, based on equal rights. So sad that religion turns reason and logic mindsets into ideological driven principles based on some medieval scripture/book.


Well, in this particular case - the issue of the land in relation to international law (encompassing property law) has been settled without any doubt - the ICC has ruled on the point of law that land conquered in 1967 does not belong to Israel and therefore cannot be annexed (it's a fundamental principle that has been ratified a few times in the 20th century - land cannot be acquired by force). Religion doesn't come into this part.

As for the financial crisis and the green mafia - I find that again we have much in common! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique

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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 14, 2010
shafique wrote:
RobbyG wrote:
shafique wrote:I'm glad we agree.

It is about land - however to disguise this fact there is quite a strong disinformation campaign that tries to present the issue as a clash of religions.



Although in essence true, you should definately not forget that religious ideology is the major driver for this conflict.


I'd disagree that it is a major factor with Palestinians. Remember that on the Palestinian side, there are both Christians and Muslims - with many prominent Palestinian activists/politicians being Christian.

Initially, religous theology played little part in the desire for land - the zionists were secular - from Ben Gurion to Begin (who was also a terrorist leader of Irgun, and then went on to win a Nobel Peace prize with Sadat).

RobbyG wrote: If we were to exclude the ideology that is being used by intellectuals in both societies to gain support for the common cause, that would not address the problem of 'holy land' ownership.


Holy sites only form a small part of Palestine and Israel, and these were dealt with in the UN partition and subsequent peace proposals. The viewing of the whole of Palestine and Israel as belonging to the Jews is a desire of some Jews, as is the viewing that the whole of the land must be returned to Arab rule (or even 'Muslim rule') is only held by a minority on either side.


RobbyG wrote:Anyway, its a private property mess. Normally such dispute would be settled in court of law, based on equal rights. So sad that religion turns reason and logic mindsets into ideological driven principles based on some medieval scripture/book.


Well, in this particular case - the issue of the land in relation to international law (encompassing property law) has been settled without any doubt - the ICC has ruled on the point of law that land conquered in 1967 does not belong to Israel and therefore cannot be annexed (it's a fundamental principle that has been ratified a few times in the 20th century - land cannot be acquired by force). Religion doesn't come into this part.

As for the financial crisis and the green mafia - I find that again we have much in common! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique


I'm going to be humble now. :wink:
You are right that his conflict does not have a broad religious origin. Your facts are indisputable.

I need to dive somewhat deeper in the Israeli Palestinian conflict sometime in the future. My ideas are growing old :blackeye:
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 14, 2010
RobbyG - the Israelis do make out that the issue is religious - but scratch the surface and it is easy to see that it is just a smokescreen.

I forgot to mention that the PLO (now Fatah) is a secular organisation - so the Palestinian side was not set up with a religious angle. In the 70's (or perhaps the 80's) - the Israelis helped set up what was to become Hamas, precisely to counterbalance the PLO, and they precisely (and cynically it now seems) encouraged/emphasised the Islamic fundamentalism.

However, what Chomsky, Finkelstein, B'tselem et al all rightly highlight is that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is one that is ultimately quite simple - it's about land and the legalities have all been settled a long time ago. Land acquired in 1967 cannot be annexed and should be handed back to the Palestinians - it is absolutely up to the Palestinians to negotiate if they want to cede some of the land captured to Israel, in return for some compensation etc - however, it is not up to Israel to dictate what they keep (they can express their desires and offer money/land in return - but can't keep it just because they occupy it right now).

Just look at the long thread about 'Palestine - Push for Independence' - and look at how many times FD tries to spin it that it is about religion, and note how this is done as a diversionary tactic whenever UN resolutions and ICC legal rulings are brought up (never addressed head on, but rather deflected by saying the rulings and resolutions aren't 'binding' - so legal opinion says Israel is wrong, but because they don't say the rulings should be acted upon, they are ignored by Israel).

So, whilst the Israelis wish it to appear like the conflict is primarily a religious argument - the reality is that it is about land, rule of law and one side (and only one side) wishing that the law didn't apply to them.

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Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 14, 2010
Thanks for that update.

Now that you mention Noam Chomsky, I just bought his book 'Failed States'. It was my intention to study the policies of failed states somewhat more and was inspired to buy his book following some sensible things Chomsky said in a few documentaries I have seen.

So I'm on the right track. One day I'll understand the role of religion... :wink:
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 14, 2010
Haven't read Failed States yet - but can recommend another of his books:

Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance (The American Empire Project)
http://www.amazon.com/Hegemony-Survival ... 0805074007

I've also finished reading a number of books by John Pilger - after seeing a few of his documentaries. Recommend 'Hidden Agendas' for some eye-opening revelations (eg about East Timor). His documentaries are on-line as well - eg Palestine is the issue, and the follow-up 'Palestine is still the issue)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 802139093#


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Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
Just watched the video: Palestine is still the issue.

It reminds me once again of the suffering of the Jews during WWII. Ironic isn't it?

After seeing such footage once again, one is inclined to support BB in her argument. But then again, it doesn't solve anything. I wish Hamas just dropped arms and so the Palestinian authority can start negotiating and see what can come out of it.

The end result is always better than the current state of affairs. Its unfair in the light of day, no doubt about that.

But the Arab league didn't want anything else from the beginning right?

As the partition vote in the UN approached, it became clear little hope existed for a political solution to a problem that transcended politics: the Arabs' unwillingness to accept a Jewish state in Palestine and the refusal of the Zionists to settle for anything less. The implacability of the Arabs was evident when Jewish Agency representatives David Horowitz and Abba Eban made a last-ditch effort to reach a compromise in a meeting with Arab League Secretary-General Azzam Pasha on September 16, 1947. Pasha told them bluntly:

The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight.
You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I am not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But it's too late to talk of peaceful solutions.


Another silly pride issue. Autocratic leaders agenda's above the people's well-being. These stubborn leaders seem to love the status quo. Its been more than 60 years now since the Arab rejection of a UN solution and look what it brought those Palestinians.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
RobbyG wrote:After seeing such footage once again, one is inclined to support BB in her argument. But then again, it doesn't solve anything. I wish Hamas just dropped arms and so the Palestinian authority can start negotiating and see what can come out of it.


Well, in 2008 Hamas kept a truce and Israel cynically broke it on Nov 4 2008 (election day in the USA) and then proceeded to bomb Gaza and all the while blamed Hamas for breaking the truce.

I'm sure many people still believe the lie that it was the Palestinians who fired rockets and provoked Israel into bombing Gaza, when in actual fact the reason Israel launched the war was because they couldn't afford to let the truce work.

Haaretz (an Israeli newspaper) explained why Israel chose to break the truce (written in November 2008 days after Israel broke the Truce or 'tahadiyeh'):
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1037571.html

...
It’s hard to find any logic in this new policy unless one looks to the West Bank again and realizes that the last thing Israel means to do is to let Hamas dictate a cease-fire there, too. Israel would rather restrict the battlefield to what the south is already “accustomed,” than to give Hamas more areas of influence, if not control. At all costs, Hamas must not be given an excuse to apply the tahadiyeh in the West Bank as well. If that means Qassams falling on Sderot, then so be it. But it would be a good idea for someone to explain this to the people living in the western Negev, so they can prepare themselves. This time we cannot assume that Arcadi Gaydamak will once again send buses in to whisk everyone away to resorts.


The reality of the situation is that the Palestinians do want to negotiate, and have made ALL the concessions in the negotiations so far (Israel has not conceded any point that it wasn't actually bound by law or UN resolution to do). But that is not not how the story is spun.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
shafique wrote:Just look at the long thread about 'Palestine - Push for Independence' - and look at how many times FD tries to spin it that it is about religion


How many times would that be according to you...please provide qoutes...

shafique wrote:and note how this is done as a diversionary tactic whenever UN resolutions and ICC legal rulings are brought up (never addressed head on, but rather deflected by saying the rulings and resolutions aren't 'binding' - so legal opinion says Israel is wrong, but because they don't say the rulings should be acted upon, they are ignored by Israel).


ICC or ICJ? And yes, the ICJ only provides non-binding advisory opinions.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
shafique wrote:It strikes me therefore that the same logic applies to the existence of a 'Kingdom of Israel' 3000 years ago (or is there some non-Biblical evidence for this?).


Enough archealogical evidence yes. But I am sure you and others want to erase this piece of history also. Arabs are champions in trying to falsify history. A lot cannot even answer the most basic question:

What came first: the first temple of Jerusalem or the Dome of the Rock?

Perhaps you should post your document again which 'proves' that the whole Dutch language is directly derived from Arabic. Always good for a laugh.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:It strikes me therefore that the same logic applies to the existence of a 'Kingdom of Israel' 3000 years ago (or is there some non-Biblical evidence for this?).


Enough archealogical evidence yes. But I am sure you and others want to erase this piece of history also. Arabs are champions in trying to falsify history. A lot cannot even answer the most basic question:

What came first: the first temple of Jerusalem or the Dome of the Rock?

Perhaps you should post your document again which 'proves' that the whole Dutch language is directly derived from Arabic. Always good for a laugh.

:lol:

Oh common, did Shafique really try to prove that?

Shafique, pony up that document man. I'm starting to have second thoughts about you now! :wink:
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Just look at the long thread about 'Palestine - Push for Independence' - and look at how many times FD tries to spin it that it is about religion


How many times would that be according to you...please provide qoutes...


I didn't count - but perhaps I was being a bit harsh, your main arguements there were about how Israel is being singled out and why I was being unfair.

It was statements like this one from Nov 9 that set the tone:
People thinking that wife beating is great when it prevents a divorce, agreeing with lashing adulterers or capital punishment for gays, have no clue what human rights mean. Also, Arab states have a very poor record when it comes to human rights, but you donot seem to care about that. In the past you have agreed with and supported ethnic cleaning, certain massacres, pedophilia and rape, so that places you in no position to talk about human rights. Palestinians are treated way worse in neighboring Arab countries, again you donot care.


To my knowledge I have never condoned any injustices - certainly not ethnic cleansing, massacres, paedophillia or rape - but yet you reeled these off as a fact. To me, the Islamophobia was shining through... and this in a thread about Israel's conflict with Palestine.

However, to be fair to you - I'm happy to concede that you did not link the conflict to religious differences -other than to make references to Hamas' charter.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:and note how this is done as a diversionary tactic whenever UN resolutions and ICC legal rulings are brought up (never addressed head on, but rather deflected by saying the rulings and resolutions aren't 'binding' - so legal opinion says Israel is wrong, but because they don't say the rulings should be acted upon, they are ignored by Israel).


ICC or ICJ? And yes, the ICJ only provides non-binding advisory opinions.


ICJ - my bad.

The opinion was on a point of law and it said:
in July 2004 the highest judicial body in the world, The International Court of Justice (ICJ) gave an advisory opinion as to the legality of the wall that the Israelis were (and are) constructing. In order to render this opinion, the court had to consider preliminary questions which correspond to the first three questions above.

On the question of Israeli borders the ICJ was unequivocal. Since, according to international law, land may not be acquired by force, and since Israel acquired land in Gaza and the West Bank this way, it is, ipso facto, illegal. There is, therefore, in effect, no dispute regarding the disputed territories: international law is clear and straight forward – the land does not belong to the Israelis. Therefore, following on from this judgement, Israeli settlers are settled on land that was obtained illegally, and are thus in flagrant violation of international law.


Key words,'unequivocable' and 'clear and straightforward', 'international law'.

No court has ruled that Israel is not violating the law when it builds colonies on land captured in 1967 - so the refrain that the opinion is non-binding rings hollow.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
I can't help feel that this is a diversionary tactic on FD's part - but hey, I'm all for answering all questions. Especially ones where I'm confused for an Arab and accused of erasing history! ;)



Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:It strikes me therefore that the same logic applies to the existence of a 'Kingdom of Israel' 3000 years ago (or is there some non-Biblical evidence for this?).


Enough archealogical evidence yes. But I am sure you and others want to erase this piece of history also.


Me, erase? Did you miss the point where I said I DO believe Moses existed? ;)

So, please enlighten me - what is the archaeological evidence for the Kingdom of Israel (which didn't include Jerusalem) and the Kindom of Judea (which did include Jerusalem) existing 3000 years ago as stated in the Bible? I agree there is archaelogical evidence for the presence of people there - but I wasn't aware that the evidence did actually exist (I'll be happy to find out that there is some - as I do believe that the Biblical accounts are largely accurate - and do believe Moses existed)

Flying Dutchman wrote:Arabs are champions in trying to falsify history.


Are they? I'm not Arab though.

Are you avoiding using the word 'Muslim', by any chance?

Flying Dutchman wrote: A lot cannot even answer the most basic question:

What came first: the first temple of Jerusalem or the Dome of the Rock?


No Muslim to my knowledge is ignorant of the fact that Judaism predates Islam - or the fact the Dome of the Rock was built on the site of the Jewish temple destroyed by the Romans in 70AD. My point was that the Bible says the Israelites fought and took the land from the previous inhabitants, the Canaanites. These guys were non-Israelites, and whose to say that the current 'Palestininians' aren't these same Canaanites? (The point is moot anyway - the Palestinians (Jews, Christians and Muslims) have lived in the land for over a 1000 years).


Flying Dutchman wrote:Perhaps you should post your document again which 'proves' that the whole Dutch language is directly derived from Arabic. Always good for a laugh.


Sure thing:
http://www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/

Philology says there was one mother language - and commonly it is said to be a lost proto-language. The second article on the page gives arguments why Arabic is this language, and the author makes his point by showing how other languages are derived from Arabic.

Given the differences between English, French and other latin languages with Latin itself - I think he makes a good argument.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
We must have different definitions than of what constitutes ethnic cleansing, murder, pedophilia and rape. Peculiar that you didnot deny that wife beating is great when it prevents divorce, that adulterers should get lashes and captial punishment for gays is justified. I guess my stance against wife beating, physical punishments and for free rights for gays is confused with Islamophobia. Oh well.


Can you please post that document again? I need a good laugh!
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:
Can you please post that document again? I need a good laugh!


I'm not an expert on Israel nor Palestinian matters, but I also could use a good laugh Shafique.

You know I take you on your merit. You're human too. Pony her up! :mrgreen: :wink:
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
See above - article and documents linked as requested. Enjoy.

FD - so what rape have I condoned? Or what massacre, ethnic cleansing etc? When did I say that wife beating prevents divorce?

I've answered your questions... so I guess it won't be too difficult for you to back up the libelous statements? :albino:

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Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
shafique wrote:See above - article and documents linked as requested. Enjoy.


Thanks! I'll save it this time.

shafique wrote:FD - so what rape have I condoned? Or what massacre, ethnic cleansing etc? When did I say that wife beating prevents divorce?


Ethnic cleansing ordered by Muhammed of the Arabian Peninsula. Massacre of Khaybar, which according to you is not a massacre. And yes on another forum you claimed light wife beating has is advantages, for example when it prevents divorce. Rape, clear cut rape by Muhammed is smooth talked by you.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:See above - article and documents linked as requested. Enjoy.


Thanks! I'll save it this time.


You're welcome! enjoy ;)


Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:FD - so what rape have I condoned? Or what massacre, ethnic cleansing etc? When did I say that wife beating prevents divorce?


Ethnic cleansing ordered by Muhammed of the Arabian Peninsula.


Ok - let's just clarify - and you can confirm with this with eh. I have indeed condemned the imagined war crimes that he thinks happened. I don't know of any instances of ethnic cleansing by the Prophet, pbuh, and have looked into each allegation and merely presented what historians have to conclude about each.

So, to my knowledge I've never condoned any genocide or ethnic cleansing. I've even denounced what the Bible says Moses did - and you may recall that's the conversation where you stated you weren't sure he even existed.

Flying Dutchman wrote: Massacre of Khaybar, which according to you is not a maasacre.


Yep, I agree with the historians who called the judgement a 'clement punishment'. So, guilty of condoning capital punishment - but not guilty of condoning a massacre, I'd argue.

Flying Dutchman wrote: And yes on another forum you claimed light wife beating has is advantages, for example when it prevents divorce.


I don't recall stating that wife beating (light or otherwise) prevents divorces. I have made the point that Islam allowed divorce much before Europe and the rest of the world, and that was a liberating rule for women - perhaps you're confusing two different issues? On the question of God allowing the husband to apply phsyical punishment after all else has failed - not least first depriving himself of s.ex with his wife (and before resorting to divorce) doesn't constitute a condoning of wife beating (or even meet the definition of wife battery).

Flying Dutchman wrote:Rape, clear cut rape by Muhammed is smooth talked by you


Ahh, I see - you think Muhammad, pbuh, is a rapist (and perhaps a paedophile) and just because I disagree with this view, I'm now condoning rape and paedophillia. :mrgreen:

Classic fanboi logic, if you don't mind me saying.

So, at least let's agree that I've never knowingly condoned rape, paedophillia, genocide etc - but have argued against what historians agree are orientalist smears against the Prophet, pbuh. Not quite the same is it?

Now, coming back to this thread...

Do we agree that the ICJ is categoric about Israel breaking the law in its (non binding) ruling?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
shafique wrote:
Sure thing:
http://www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/

Philology says there was one mother language - and commonly it is said to be a lost proto-language. The second article on the page gives arguments why Arabic is this language, and the author makes his point by showing how other languages are derived from Arabic.

Given the differences between English, French and other latin languages with Latin itself - I think he makes a good argument.

Cheers,
Shafique


You and I are basically aware of history and its archeological written evidence of empire building and colonization. We can think of the Ottoman empire, the British, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese colonization in Europe, Asia etc.

The result of the influence of language and cultures of empires that crossed the globe during colonization and empire building is visible through the use of loanwords. To give you an idea of the Arabic influence in world history we look at the Ottoman Empire (1293–1923), one of the longest surviving empires in world history. This research you showed was done around 1965 and is to say the least, very naieve, seen from a historic context. Let me explain;

English is the first language in the world today. Its because of the influence of the English Empire accross the globe. Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world today due to the same reason. You can easily see the relation of cultural and linguistic influences due to colonization in the maps provided below.

Lets put this in historic context starting with the Roman empire:

1. Roman Empire (27 BC–AD 476/1453), latin influences and loanwords!
By the time of the imperial period Latin evolved into two languages: the 'high' written Classical Latin and the 'low' spoken Vulgar Latin. While Classical Latin remained relatively stable, even through the Middle Ages, Vulgar Latin as with any spoken language was fluid and evolving. Vulgar Latin became the lingua franca in the western provinces, later evolving into the modern Romance languages: Italian, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Romanian, etc. Greek and Classical Latin were considered the languages of literature, scholarship, and education.


Image

2. Ottoman Empire (1293–1923), Arabic influences and loanwords from other cultures!

Arabic loanwords in English are words acquired directly from Arabic or else indirectly by passing from Arabic into a third language (often Latin or Spanish) and then into English. Some of these Arabic loanwords are not of ancient Arabic origin, but are loanwords within Arabic itself, coming into Arabic from Persian, Greek or other languages.


Why was the Empire successful?
There were many reasons why the Ottoman Empire was so successful:

Highly centralised
Power was always transferred to a single person, and not split between rival princes
The Ottoman Empire was successfully ruled by a single family for 7 centuries.
State-run education system
Religion was incorporated in the state structure, and the Sultan was regarded as "the protector of Islam".
State-run judicial system
Ruthless in dealing with local leaders
Promotion to positions of power largely depended on merit
Created alliances across political and racial groups
United by Islamic ideology
United by Islamic warrior code with ideal of increasing Muslim territory through Jihad
United by Islamic organisational and administrative structures
Highly pragmatic, taking the best ideas from other cultures and making them their own
Encouraged loyalty from other faith groups
Private power and wealth were controlled
Very strong military
Strong slave-based army
Expert in developing gunpowder as a military tool
Military ethos pervaded whole administration

One legacy of the Islamic Ottoman Empire is the robust secularism of modern Turkey.
At its peak it included: Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, Hungary, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Parts of Arabia, and much of the coastal strip of North Africa.

Image

3. Dutch Empire (17th to 20th century, corresponding with British, Spanish, Portuguese empire expansions)
Lingquistic influences very limited due to trade focus. British and Spanish influences were much more pressured by religious conviction.

The Dutch Empire consisted of the overseas territories controlled by the Netherlands from the 17th to the 20th century. The Dutch followed Portugal and Spain in establishing an overseas colonial empire, aided by their skills in shipping and trade and the surge of nationalism accompanying the struggle for independence from Spain.

Alongside the British, the Dutch initially built up colonial possessions on the basis of indirect state capitalist corporate colonialism, via the Dutch East and West India Companies. Dutch exploratory voyages such as those led by Willem Barents, Henry Hudson and Abel Tasman revealed to Europeans vast new territories.

With Dutch naval power rising rapidly as a major force from the late 16th century, the Netherlands dominated global commerce during the second half of the 17th century during a cultural flowering known as the Dutch Golden Age. The Netherlands lost many of its colonial possessions, as well as its global power status, to the British when the metropole fell to French armies during the Revolutionary Wars. The restored portions of the Dutch Empire, notably the Dutch East Indies and Suriname, remained under Dutch control until the decline of European imperialism following World War II.

Today, the Netherlands are part of a federacy called the Kingdom of the Netherlands, along with its former colonies Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles.


Dutch 'empire':
Image

English empire:
Image

Spanish empire:
Image

In conclusion:

Arabic language during the Ottoman empire wasn't promoted or forced outside the region. The Ottoman empire was highly centralized and therefore long lasting and effective. The influence of Arabic language in other cultures and languages is visible, but limited. It was the Roman, Spaniard and English empires who promoted their language with much more vigorous efforts. The Dutch merely colonized for trade and had no intention to convert for religous reasons like Christianity did.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
I understand what you are arguing. However the two ideas are distinct - one is an incorporation of foreign words into an existing language - eg the wealth of Arabic words in English and Spanish - all coming in after English and Spanish had been established and as a result of European contact with Arabic speaking people.

The second point is the indentification of the one language all other languages derived from - not recently, but in the distant social evolution of languages. There was a time when Sanskrit was thought to have been this language (proposed by English scholars who studied Sanskrit and noticed the similarities between it and the European languages). Nowadays, philologists know that sanskrit is a derived language and came from an older language.

See wiki entry for the Proto-Indo-European language which all European and 'Indo' languages are thought to be derived from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo ... n_language

The 'family tree' of languages is particularly interesting:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... anTree.svg

What the author, Mazhar, is arguing in his article about the mother of all languages is that Arabic is this mother language.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/Th ... guages.pdf

Just look at one family of languages - the semitic languages and look at what philogists surmise is the mother language there - a 'proto-semitic' language. Now, what Mazhar is arguing is that there is no proto-semitic but just Arabic. So, if you go to the description of what proto-semitic sounds are and compare the table's contents with the semitic languages listed, you will see that deleting 'the first column' does not lose much detail as Arabic contains all the sounds in proto-semitic, and all the other semitic languages are sub-sets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic

Note that the other languages listed are less 'rich' than Arabic (rich as in the range of sounds/letters). And this is a feature that extends to so called 'root words'. Arabic has fewer synonyms than other languages - indicating (the theory goes) that it is older than the other languages (languages tend to get simpler - more recent languages have to use compound words and contain synonyms - where words which sound the same have unrelated meanings - eg pair/pear; scent/cent/sent

So, the 'mother language' in philology exists - the argument here is that Arabic is that language. The presence of loan words (which also exist in Arabic, but relatively few) is a reflection of languages adapting to new concepts over time for which words didn't exist in the underlying language.

But anyway, first read the article by Mazhar - and then see whether his 'proofs' are just listing loan words rather than words derived from an earlier language. A quick test would be to see what dictionaries say - certainly English dictionaries say when a word came from Arabic directly, or whether it derives from Latin, Greek or other languages.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010
shafique wrote:I understand what you are arguing. However the two ideas are distinct - one is an incorporation of foreign words into an existing language - eg the wealth of Arabic words in English and Spanish - all coming in after English and Spanish had been established and as a result of European contact with Arabic speaking people.

The second point is the indentification of the one language all other languages derived from - not recently, but in the distant social evolution of languages. There was a time when Sanskrit was thought to have been this language (proposed by English scholars who studied Sanskrit and noticed the similarities between it and the European languages). Nowadays, philologists know that sanskrit is a derived language and came from an older language.

See wiki entry for the Proto-Indo-European language which all European and 'Indo' languages are thought to be derived from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo ... n_language

The 'family tree' of languages is particularly interesting:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... anTree.svg

What the author, Mazhar, is arguing in his article about the mother of all languages is that Arabic is this mother language.
http://www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/Th ... guages.pdf

Just look at one family of languages - the semitic languages and look at what philogists surmise is the mother language there - a 'proto-semitic' language. Now, what Mazhar is arguing is that there is no proto-semitic but just Arabic. So, if you go to the description of what proto-semitic sounds are and compare the table's contents with the semitic languages listed, you will see that deleting 'the first column' does not lose much detail as Arabic contains all the sounds in proto-semitic, and all the other semitic languages are sub-sets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic

Note that the other languages listed are less 'rich' than Arabic (rich as in the range of sounds/letters). And this is a feature that extends to so called 'root words'. Arabic has fewer synonyms than other languages - indicating (the theory goes) that it is older than the other languages (languages tend to get simpler - more recent languages have to use compound words and contain synonyms - where words which sound the same have unrelated meanings - eg pair/pear; scent/cent/sent

So, the 'mother language' in philology exists - the argument here is that Arabic is that language. The presence of loan words (which also exist in Arabic, but relatively few) is a reflection of languages adapting to new concepts over time for which words didn't exist in the underlying language.

But anyway, first read the article by Mazhar - and then see whether his 'proofs' are just listing loan words rather than words derived from an earlier language. A quick test would be to see what dictionaries say - certainly English dictionaries say when a word came from Arabic directly, or whether it derives from Latin, Greek or other languages.

Cheers,
Shafique


Good lord, just studied it somewhat deeper. Since I'm not going to claim I know something about languages, which I don't. I would like to point you at the limitations of historical linguistics and its methods of determination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method (50%)

What strikes me is something I see happening with global warming (shortsighted statistical science) and in economics (social science). There its is a linear extrapolation, but in linguistics it would be a form of linear interpolation or basically the tree model determination.

I don't think this is the right approach as groups of people (with different languages, dialects and periods of contact) interact with eachother, which creates new dialect and loanwords in order to understand eachother over time. A wave pattern would be more logical and creates linguistic overlap, especially at border regions in above mentioned empires over the course of history.

linguistic overlap:
Image

To compare two words and 'cherrypick' the commonalities in linear patterns is very naieve, considering that language is spread and influenced among moving subjects (people) over a certain time period of contact/interaction with another dialect or new language/culture. Its not a linear process, its chaotic.

These waves of languages (expansionary and retreating due to e.g. war periods, recessions etc), divided in multiple dialects depending on regions (rural, urban, remote) and different times of exposure with eachother cannot be traced back to one origin. Its mathematically impossible in my opinion. Too many variables.

You would be able to follow the flow of people and the wave of language/dialects over a short period. But when multiple waves collide you get dispersion. From there on its chaos and this impossible to track over time.

Again I'm no expert, but it seems to me that this will never be resolved unless a divine source suddenly comes out of the closet with the answer. And you know how I think about religion. :wink:

Just my two cents.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 15, 2010


Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is the only Islamic organization to believe that the long-awaited Messiah has come in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) (1835-1908) of Qadian


Not a very reliable source. People claiming to be the messiah and the second coming of Jesus. Do you believe this is really the messiah and the second coming of Jesus, Shafique?
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:


Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is the only Islamic organization to believe that the long-awaited Messiah has come in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) (1835-1908) of Qadian


Not a very reliable source. People claiming to be the messiah and the second coming of Jesus. Do you believe this is really the messiah and the second coming of Jesus, Shafique?


A quick google look up doesn't reveal anything about him - he isn't in academia, doesn't hold a degree in linguistics, perhaps doesn't even speak the languages he's pontificating on.

Perhaps if shafique's author's theory is as grounded as shafique would like to have others believe, he would have no problem with finding actual experts who agree with shafique's author's premise.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
RobbyG wrote:
Again I'm no expert, but it seems to me that this will never be resolved unless a divine source suddenly comes out of the closet with the answer. And you know how I think about religion. :wink:

Just my two cents.



This really has very little to do with religion - its just an interesting theory for me.

The first thing we need to establish is whether we believe that all languages trace back to one language. I happen to think the arguments presented for a single language make sense. It fits in nicely with the scientific evidence that genetically we are one race - i.e. mitochondrial DNA shows we are all related to one 'Eve', so with social evolution it would make sense that language evolved when mankind had not yet migrated into distinct communities. Religion does feature at this stage - for a religious person could believe that God taught man language - eg teaching early man the name of things ;)

Now, if we believe philologists and the theory of evolution of languages - the question becomes whether Arabic is a contender for this earliest language. In the past Sanskrit was first considered as such, but when tested it was found that it couldn't be this language - and it fits into a wider tree. Perhaps Arabic will also fail the test - but Mazhar's article is arguing that it doesn't.

The whole 'proto-language' theory is one where scholars are extrapolating backwards the presence of mother languages from the existing daughter languages. The consensus is that there is a common language to all Indo-European languages - so that Hindi, Farsi etc are related to Dutch.

Your arguments above could be used to dismiss the similarities between Classical Greek and Latin and Sanskrit which led the earliest scholars to surmise that Sanskrit was a mother language.

What Mazhar is arguing is that if you test the hypothesis that Arabic is this mother tongue, there is evidence to support it.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
shafique wrote:
RobbyG wrote:
Again I'm no expert, but it seems to me that this will never be resolved unless a divine source suddenly comes out of the closet with the answer. And you know how I think about religion. :wink:

Just my two cents.



This really has very little to do with religion - its just an interesting theory for me.

The whole 'proto-language' theory is one where scholars are extrapolating backwards the presence of mother languages from the existing daughter languages. The consensus is that there is a common language to all Indo-European languages - so that Hindi, Farsi etc are related to Dutch.

Your arguments above could be used to dismiss the similarities between Classical Greek and Latin and Sanskrit which led the earliest scholars to surmise that Sanskrit was a mother language.

What Mazhar is arguing is that if you test the hypothesis that Arabic is this mother tongue, there is evidence to support it.

Cheers,
Shafique



Again I'm no expert, but it seems to me that this will never be resolved unless a divine source suddenly comes out of the closet with the answer. And you know how I think about religion.


Focus mate. It was an attachment joke. :roll:

I'm not saying that Arabic couldn't be the proto-language. Its open to me. Point is, you can speculate all you want, but the simple logic of multiple wave patterns (different languages/dialects) and common influences of loan-words and their origins are not traceable with full certainty. People don't walk and travel in the same directions. Even in ancient days they loved strolling around looking for food and moderate climates.

I'll leave this subject to you. Its a bit off my personal interest.

Just giving you an insight.
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
I edited the previous post as you were posting yours... you may want to just re-read the added comments (regarding evolution of man, language etc)

This is a side issue for me as well - and I agree, it is one that can be tested as a theory but can't be definitively 'proved'. I do find the tree of languages fascinating though - and how European languages orginate in India! (Reminds of the 'Goodness Gracious Me' character who claims that everything is from India!)

;)

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Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
shafique wrote:I edited the previous post as you were posting yours... you may want to just re-read the added comments (regarding evolution of man, language etc)

This is a side issue for me as well - and I agree, it is one that can be tested as a theory but can't be definitively 'proved'. I do find the tree of languages fascinating though - and how European languages orginate in India! (Reminds of the 'Goodness Gracious Me' character who claims that everything is from India!)

;)

Cheers,
Shafique


It sure is a fascinating tree. If you're a tree hugger :mrgreen:

But seriously, it is interesting to one day find out what our ancestors spoke. The scientific community agrees with our place of origin which is the continent of Africa, if I'm not mistaken. So its reassuring to know I was black...lol

That 1965 research mentions 'Kapra' = goat, in relation with Gufra. Something about a goat with a cover, as in mountain goat, which we call a sheep. Anyway, forgive me for my bad Arabic, point I want to make is: Kapra is an Indian town close to where the Dutch trading station was moored.

I think the circle is round. What you think? :D
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
Yeah, 'mitochondrial Eve' is thought to have come from East Africa, brother! ;)

As for Kapra - as we are way out on a tangent, I did a quick search.

Did you know that the scientific name for the genus for goats is called 'Capra' (which I guess is related to 'capricorn' a 'sea goat'!) - but the word 'goat' in English comes ultimately from an Indo-European word..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capra_(genus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat#Etymology

Now, (and this really is going out on a tangent) - goats are part of Norse mythology with Thor's chariot being pulled by goats. So, I would surmise that Europeans knew about Goats and that they would have had a word for 'goat' long before the dutch moored next to a village in India called Kapra ;)

However, perhaps that is indeed where the Dutch got their word for goat - you are a contrary lot! :bigsmurf:

Anyway - I trust you know I'm just trying to 'get your goat'! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
Poor shafique - mitochondrial organelles doesn't prove that humans evolved from one ancestral eve anymore than humans evolved from canines.

Well,, in your case.....
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
shafique wrote:Yeah, 'mitochondrial Eve' is thought to have come from East Africa, brother! ;)

As for Kapra - as we are way out on a tangent, I did a quick search.

Did you know that the scientific name for the genus for goats is called 'Capra' (which I guess is related to 'capricorn' a 'sea goat'!) - but the word 'goat' in English comes ultimately from an Indo-European word..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capra_(genus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat#Etymology

Now, (and this really is going out on a tangent) - goats are part of Norse mythology with Thor's chariot being pulled by goats. So, I would surmise that Europeans knew about Goats and that they would have had a word for 'goat' long before the dutch moored next to a village in India called Kapra ;)

However, perhaps that is indeed where the Dutch got their word for goat - you are a contrary lot! :bigsmurf:

Anyway - I trust you know I'm just trying to 'get your goat'! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique


You got my goat allrite, I'm with ya. Hold on... :D

formula 1: ee = i
formula 2: goat with cover in lowlands (max 600m height) = sheep
formula 3: gulf = water, wave

So yes we knew about goats as in sheep (formula 2) and since we moored near Kapra we heard people call us for Gufra's, so we connected that with gulf and with water, so we knew they were saying something in the trend of: You Dutch sailor fooks, send us some Gufra's = mountain goat = lowland sheep by ship (loanword) :idea: to us and you will get your spices from us.

Can't get any rounder than that. We sent them by the millions :wink: :drunken:

Image
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Re: Hamas Military Commander 'Assassinated in Dubai' Feb 16, 2010
Ok, you've convinced me, oh Orange one.. :)

Your photo reminded me of this great clip:


enjoy.

(I wonder if we could control eh in this way - ;) )

Cheers,
Shafique
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