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Event h.,If you want to see what ignorance without education, and self-development do the people, coupled with church influence.. then you should go and study the european history of the dark age era...and see how awful women were treatead...After this study you can come and talk in the name of islam eh..

I do agree with you that ignorance,no deeper thought and anlysis of what religion means and theaches to be is wildly misunderstood as is completly ignored due to evil side of the human nature...
And it's too bad that your living in todays world and weren't one of those to witness what was happening in Europe before to condemn that for christans just as you do it for muslims now..

But I did ask you to study one nation now where islam is not a religion to report what influences men there to continue to beat their women..

But you woun't do that, why?becouse you don't really believe in God and his commandments and it's just as simple and apperant as that..


Take a look at this...
http://skeptically.org/bible/id13.html

which has one lawyer giving his views about what constitutes 'discipline' rather than battery, is hardly conclusive evidence.

Very telling response. You seem to believe that a husband physically striking his wife to correct her is 'discipline' rather than abuse.

I agree, you believe that men hitting their wives to correct the error of their ways is discipline and therefore, the passage instructing men to physically 'discipline' their wives if they are disobedient is not misogynist.

However, you need to understand that non-Muslims part ways with Muslims over the issue of wife beating, with non-Muslims viewing such acts as disgraceful and passing laws which criminalize wife beating or, in your mind, 'discipline'.

But hey - you seem to think that those who oppose his views must all be non-Muslims, whereas I didn't make that assumption.

Speaking of which, care to explain how you came to your conclusion that these women were Muslim again? I suppose all Arabs are Muslims to you.

Men of all faiths beat their wives, its just that currently where if a christian tried to use that defence in the west they would be laughed at.

But I am lead to believe in in the arabic world in some countries it could be used as a defence - is this a fair observation?

A while back I presented the published stats on violence (including rape and battery) against women in the home - in Europe the rate was 20%. This happened in jurisdictions where it is a criminal offence - so criminalising these acts does not eliminate this crime. A major factor was drinking - and this is the case world wide.

Another point to be made is that in the West there are some Christians who do take literally the injunctions that the man is the head of the family and need to be obeyed. The women in those communities do defend the right of their men to discipline them with beatings if necessary. However, I agree that the majority of Christians reject these teachings and the laws now-a-days defend the rights of women against this.

Which therefore brings us to two questions:
1. Is the rate of abuse against women greater in Muslim countries where the men (and women?)?
2. Is the Quran being used to justify violence against women?


The stats for violence against women in Muslim states is less comprehensive and what is available shows rates of domestic violence less than European stats - but I concede this may be due to under reporting.

I've made the claim that generally religious people (of whatever faith) would be less likely to beat their wives. A religious man who believes in God and is either Christian or Muslim, will - on balance - be less likely to batter their wives. This is my conclusion when I weigh up the good effects of religion.

Islamic teaching on how women should be treated compare extremely favourably with the teachings of other faiths - so Muslim believers are no better/worse than practioners of other faiths.

That said, culture also needs to be factored in. Women are battered in societies where men look down on women, either in practice or overtly.

This is certainly the case in the tribal areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan - where the tribal laws trump Shariah. Also the peculiar Saudi laws against women have nothing to do with Islam.

I would concede that there is an argument that the lot of women in the tribal Afghanistan and Pakistan is worse than women in the west - but whether the women get battered more than the one-in-five women in the West, I'm not sure - let's say I'm still agnostic on this point of comparison.

As for whether it is an acceptable argument in Muslim courts when a battered woman complains against her husband - that is something I've not seen argued. On the contrary, I know of instances where this has been grounds for divorce.

Cheers,
Shafique

Another point to be made is that in the West there are some Christians who do take literally the injunctions that the man is the head of the family and need to be obeyed. The women in those communities do defend the right of their men to discipline them with beatings if necessary. However, I agree that the majority of Christians reject these teachings and the laws now-a-days defend the rights of women against this.

That's odd - because the Koran also says that husbands are the head of the household, but unlike the Bible, the Koran takes this view one step further and says that wives can be beaten if they are disobedient to their husbands.

Perhaps you were confusing the Bible with the Koran or just trying to be funny?

The rest of your post is interesting, but really doesn't address the OP - whether husbands physically disciplining their wives is sexist and should be illegal (and not followed).

You seem to be ignoring whether the command in the Koran to smack your wife around if she is disobedient is sexist, rather claiming that drinking in Europe results in higher rates of spousal abuse than in Muslim countries.

That is certainly an interesting observation and one that I am sure a person could have a field day with manipulating/selectively quoting stats on the topic. But, how does that absolve the Koran's teaching for men to hit their wives?

I really can't see any justification for it, other to post on a strawman that spousal abuse occurs in other countries and cultures but it is generally frowned up - especially in Europe and N. America where men who hit their wives or vice-versa is an arrestable offense and spousal abuse occurs despite the laws of the land, not because of them.

I agree that in Muslim countries - such as Saudi Arabia, women are second class citizens, but that is because of sharia law in which women are of a lesser status than are men, not in spite of it.

But regardless if women are actually abused less in Muslim countries than in the US or Europe (and also if women believe that they should be abused more in Europe than in Muslim nations, or in your mind 'disciplined'), that still does not actually address the misogynist passage in the Koran for men to beat/discipline their wives.

I agree, in the US and Europe wife beating is indeed not only a crime but socially unacceptable. I dispute the impression that people have that Muslims are less intolerant of the crime, but I was also making another point.

Despite the social inacceptability of wife beating, the stats of 1 in 5 women suffering domestic violence (including rape) is staggering. It begs the question what the rate of violence would be if the crime wasn't criminalised.

My contention is that this is actually a reflection of people becoming less religous rather than because people are following any particular religion (I don't blame wife beating on Biblical verses, for example).

As for God's instructions concerning discipline within a marriage - as I said, this can either be viewed as misogynistic and rejected, or can be viewed in context as a lesser evil than the ultimate Islamic sanction of divorce.

It is fascinating that you defend the misogynistic verses of the Bible (of which there are many more and much more demeaning to women) and yet do not apply the same logic to the Quran - i.e. that all the verses relating to women need to be read together.

What was it that Jesus said? ...

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Matthew 7.5


Cheers,
Shafique

Following shafiques q's

"Which therefore brings us to two questions:
1. Is the rate of abuse against women greater in Muslim countries where the men (and women?)? "

Im glad you mention poor data, i have had many 'battles' on forums in qatar with muslim posters saying there is no rape in muslim countries, in the west rape is 100's of times worse, (even though south africa has the worst women violence stats), while they quote western data but have no data themselves for their own countries, and don't understand 'under reporting'. You wont find any man on man rape data either.

I did find some data from an NGO in egypt, now how representative egypt is of a 'muslim' country, your guess is better than mine. But it nice to dispell myths.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdes ... 671113.htm

Hend is one of 20,000 women or girls raped every year, according to Egypt's Interior Ministry, a figure which implies that an average of about 55 women are raped every day. However, owing to the fear of social disgrace, victims are reluctant to report cases, and experts say the number may be much higher.

"If the Ministry of the Interior gets 20,000 then you should multiply it by 10," said Engy Ghozlan of the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights (ECWR) anti-harassment campaign.

(Egypt population is about 80 million people so divide by 2 ie female population (its rough i know) so 40 million people turn it into per 100,000 so divide by 400
conservative estimate = 50
worst case = 500

Euro rates http://www.europeansourcebook.org/esb3_Full.pdf
look at Table 1.2.1.7, assuming they have used the same logic Egypt is fair bit higher. Assuming they didn't do the split for females and half the numbers ie. 25-50 / 100,000 thats still higher than most of europe.

Now please dont take this as a bashing

"It's hard to tell [exactly how many women are raped] because there aren't a lot of statistics. Most people won't come out and say it happened because culturally it is not accepted."

Rape statistics are notoriously problematic, partly because there is no precise, universally agreed definition of the crime of rape. In Egypt, for example, spousal rape is not illegal. "The law prohibits non-spousal rape and punishment ranges from three years to life imprisonment; however, spousal rape is not illegal," says a US State Department country report for Egypt dated March 2006.

2. Is the Quran being used to justify violence against women?
- i'd say no more or less than any other text, crazy chauvanists use whatever excuse.

Again, I find more that I agree with than disagree.

I'm familiar with the stats from Egypt and there is definitely an issue there. The BBC ran a news item on the case - and highlighted that one of the issues was that men were finding it hard to raise the necessary cash to get married and the age of marriage was getting higher - typically in the 30s. They highlighted that the rates of rape and other sexual crimes were increasing and some commentators put it down to this issue.

I also think that Arab countries in general have much hidden stats - from paedophillia in Saudi (an issue which shocked me when I first heard about it in 2003 on my first business trip there). The people I visited would not let their teenage sons travel home from school alone (in Riyadh), because (they said) they had fears they'd be abducted and abused. The abduction and rape of women (particularly maids) was common place they told me.

I put this down to the extreme repression of the state and it angered me this was being done in the name of Islam.

But we must also not forget that Arab is not synonymous with Islam - there are the free-er Islamic states that are Arab, and also the numerous non-Arab states. Women are pretty empowered in Iran, for example, despite the popular reports - and given the Shia practice of 'Muta' I'd hazard a guess that sexual crimes are lower.

Also we must look at the most populous Muslim state - Indonesia, and the other Muslim states in Asia and Africa, as well as the Muslims in Europe.


I work with stats a lot (I'm an actuary) and I know it is dangerous to draw too many conclusions when data is sparce - and in any case, as far as myself and the Muslims I know are concerned, wife beating is a taboo and I could not imagine myself disciplining my wife as God allows in the Quran.

What happens in Egypt and Saudi - perversely - happens despite of Islam's teachings rather than because of it, and hearks back to the pre-Islamic misogynism of the Arabs.

Cheers,
Shafique

"as far as myself and the Muslims I know are concerned, wife beating is a taboo and I could not imagine myself disciplining my wife as God allows in the Quran"

Which is pretty much what I thought.

Unfortunatly I feel people try to use it as an excuse to maintain (non-islamic) cultural beliefs and people are frightneded to call out this behaviour, as they dont want to be labelled as 'criticising islam'

I don't blame wife beating on Biblical verses, for example).

I agree - unlike the Koran, the Bible does not call for husbands to beat their disobedient wives.

As for God's instructions concerning discipline within a marriage - as I said, this can either be viewed as misogynistic and rejected, or can be viewed in context as a lesser evil than the ultimate Islamic sanction of divorce.

Interesting belief - wife beating is less evil than divorce. But for those who do not believe that divorce is evil, how will wife beating then be justified?

It is fascinating that you defend the misogynistic verses of the Bible (of which there are many more and much more demeaning to women) and yet do not apply the same logic to the Quran - i.e. that all the verses relating to women need to be read together.

That was *your* claim that all verses in the Koran need to be read together when discussing violence within the Koran. I simply regurgitated this and applied it to the New Testament.