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event horizon · Sep 25, 2009

Still waiting for *you* to post the passages from the ninth chapter of the Koran and we can go through them one at a time.

shafique · Sep 25, 2009

Me to post verses from Ch 9? Pour quoi, mon ami? Was my post from a week ago confusing?

As I said, I agree with you that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29. Is this agreement causing you grief?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 25, 2009

Still (patiently) waiting for these passages which say Jews and Christians pose(d) a military threat to the Muslims.

shafique · Sep 25, 2009

shafique wrote:Ok, I can understand that eh is a bit confused and is asking the same question again - it was a week ago that I answered it (on the second page of this thread) at Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:30 am

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 29, 2009

shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:Ok, I can understand that eh is a bit confused and is asking the same question again - it was a week ago that I answered it (on the second page of this thread) at Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:30 am

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, the individual passages you believe show that the passage in the Koran (9:29) which says to wage war against unbelievers because they are unbelievers does not really mean what 9:29 clearly says can be addressed.

I assume no passages in the ninth chapter exist, otherwise you would have posted them by now, but I suspect you're all mouth and no trousers.

shafique · Sep 29, 2009

eh-oh, it appears that in your world everyone but you is wrong, and what is a contradiction makes sense, and answers can be ignored.

It is fascinating to see the way your mind works - Goldstein is not to be condemned, but was influenced by the Quran, you here start a thread saying the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 - and can't accept that I agree with you.

But the funniest one so far is stating that the NT does not contain contradictions - and only coming up with 'I don't believe the contradiction shown is a contradiction'!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 29, 2009

and only coming up with 'I don't believe the contradiction shown is a contradiction'!

Yeah, that is a pretty funny argument.

So far, that is the gist of yours in explaining 9:29 with the other passages it contradicts in the Koran.

So, where are these verses that put 9:29 in its proper context?

Please post them yourself and we can see if they actually place 9:29 in its literary context or if you are just taking them out of context.

shafique · Sep 30, 2009

I wouldn't call your argument about the contradiction in the NT 'funny' - just plain wierd. "Its not a contradiction, because I don't believe it is a contradiction - but the meaning is contradicted by the other verses"

As for whether the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 - as I've said, I agree with you. Why the insistence that I re-supply you with the quotes I gave 2 weeks ago?

Is it because you can't accept I agree with you?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 30, 2009

Still (patiently) waiting for those passages.

Are you worried about posting them?

shafique · Sep 30, 2009

I'm not worried at all - I'm just glad you keep giving me an excuse to repeat that I agree with your first post (and the title of this thread) that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29.

Thank you.

As for me re-pasting the answers I gave earlier - CBF mate.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 01, 2009

Still with the ostrich defense, huh?

What passage in the ninth ch of the Koran says the Jews and Christians pose a military threat to the Muslims?

Very simple question - and yet, it is taking more than five pages to answer.

shafique · Oct 01, 2009

what part of 'cbf' confused you?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 01, 2009

shafique wrote:what part of 'cbf' confused you?

Cheers,
Shafique

A passage that says to 'fight Jews and Christians because they are unbelievers' sounds like it contradicts a passage that says that Muslims are to fight back after being attacked by the Pagans and only stop until Islamic law is enforced, i.e., the creation of an Islamic state.

What are you having trouble with when understanding these clear contradictions?

event horizon · Oct 09, 2009

One must choose who to believe - those who say the Koran does not contain contradictions or the companions of Muhammad, including his own cousin, who say the opposite:

Early Development: tafsir in the time of Muhammad

During the lifetime of the Prophet, his companions used to ask him questions relating to the interpretation of the Qur'an and the different aspects of the injunctions contained in it. The prophet used to explain to them the revelation. Muslim scholars believe that the result of such inquiries was that the companions came to know all about the causes of revelation, Asbab an-Nazul of different verses. They also became aware of the verses that were abrogated and those verses that were replaced by other verses.

The authority to explain was granted to the Prophet by God himself as laid down in the Qur'an, "We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought" (Surah 16:44). Therefore, Muslim scholars state that the things said by the Prophet in explanation or to which he gave silent approval were committed to memory by the companions. Being men of great learning many of them had not only memorised the Qur'an but also had full knowledge of when, where and why verses of the Qur'an were revealed.

http://www.stevenmasood.org/articles/Tafsir.html

shafique · Oct 09, 2009

Totally agree - one should indeed examine the claims and make up one's mind.

That's why I'm all in favour of subjecting the claims of Orientalists and seeing whether evidence supports their views, or whether only a selective reading of history is needed for their (now discredited) views to hold.

Similarly with latter day fallacies - such as Islam being more violent than Christianity say - where someone makes a claim that can be tested (eg there are more Muslim convert terrorists than Chrisitan Convert Terrorists), then the claim should be tested. As we've seen in the Politics thread, the stats speak for themselves - in the chosen period, we have so far only one actual terrorist from Muslim converts who killed 26, whilst the running count for actual Christian convert terrorists (not counting the 'suspects' etc) is approaching 200 with less than half the period counted.

One indeed has to look at the evidence and make up one's mind. I'm sure that Islamophobes will believe what they want despite the facts, and I'm sure they will believe Muslims are the ones in the wrong for doubting Fox News reports.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 09, 2009

So the tafsir's of the earliest Muslim scholars are now 'orientalist'?

You really are a laugh a minute.

shafique · Oct 10, 2009

You really like flogging dead horses don't you - I've agreed with you that I agree the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29!

I've also pointed out that Orientalists love to selectively quote - and we've seen you do that on many occasions - precisely drawing the wrong conclusions.

But hey - at least you are consistent, you do the same with the NT as well.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 10, 2009

Again with the misrepresentation? These are not my views but the views of Muslim scholars - that the Koran contains contradictory passages and the verses which are contradicted should be ignored.

If you don't believe me, please look up Ibn Abbas's tafseer online. He mentions verse abrogation a number of times in reference to passages which were abrogated 'canceled' out.

One must choose who to believe; a companion and relative of prophet Muhammad, who is viewed favorably by both Muslims and Shia or some Indian guy/British agent who proclaimed himself a prophet after Muhammad and died in the lavatory.

shafique · Oct 10, 2009

As I said, I agree with your opening argument - the Quran does indeed contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc.

By extension, it also contradicts anyone agreeing with you (or who you think agree with you).

Thanks for the opportunity for allowing me to reiterate this point.

I'm still at a loss where you think the argument is - as I agree with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin · Oct 10, 2009

Event horizon, how about reading this...

THE KORAN AND FIGHTING UNBELIEVERS
A RESPONSE TO JUAN COLE’S POSITION

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/juancole.htm

Berrin · Oct 10, 2009

after this christian point of view, there is more to it by the muslims...

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran.htm

http://www.islamforpeace.org/quran.html

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... boutIslamE

http://www.islamanswers.net/moreAbout/Mercy.htm

event horizon · Oct 10, 2009

shafique wrote:As I said, I agree with your opening argument - the Quran does indeed contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc.

By extension, it also contradicts anyone agreeing with you (or who you think agree with you).

Thanks for the opportunity for allowing me to reiterate this point.

I'm still at a loss where you think the argument is - as I agree with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, didn't catch that. Are you saying that Ibn Abbas (let alone a majority of Muslims scholars after him) did/do not believe the Koran contains contradictory passages and that some of these passages should be ignored?

event horizon · Oct 10, 2009

Berrin wrote:Event horizon, how about reading this...

THE KORAN AND FIGHTING UNBELIEVERS
A RESPONSE TO JUAN COLE’S POSITION

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/juancole.htm

I'm not sure what the point of posting that article is. It would seem that Juan Cole made a few mistakes, including when he said that the command in 9:29 does not apply to Jews and Christians.

Berrin · Oct 11, 2009

“should Muslims fight against unbelievers or only fight unbelievers after they are first attacked?”

Wasn’t this your initial question (your first post)….

I provided you the views of Christians both in contrast (even though they were still missing the points as to why and when Muslims would start defence or war and stop. (the writer’s attitude against our prophet and Islam is another issue altogether)..

And then provided Muslims perspective… so that you could see the difference..

In those days, the conditions of the Muslims ordered to spread the message of God was very harsh under persecution and their struggle to establish it was of different nature compared to today’s world of teaching and spreading Islam and living with Islam.. This is why I think readers of other faiths get puzzled when reading these verses.

It’s clear that the objective of the verses is not set for fighting non believers all the time of their own existence..

If this wasn’t true the God (as the creator we understand in Islam) could choose and wouldn’t continue to populate the Christians, Jews, pagans and atheists, as always happens,… instead he would continue with the Muslims only and make them the heir s of the whole wealth on the earth..

God shows us that this is not the case, no matter what humans believe and do, he continues to create us in all shapes and colour and into different nationalities, in the hope that we will learn from each other and embrace him, understand the purpose of his creation and live our life as ordered through his final revelations and prophet teachings....

From the day Islam was introduced, Muslims are always thought that a non-believer always has the opportunity and intelligence to become follower of Islam whether it be at the age of 10/30/60 etc. The matter of time it takes is a matter of their own jihad (struggle for truth) as their self determination is also being tested in the eyes of God.

shafique · Oct 15, 2009

You are missing the point.

I agree with your intial proposition that the Quran contradicts your view of 9.29 etc.

But thanks for bringing this fact to our attention once again.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 16, 2009

See, it is good to discuss and clarify. You are quite right, I presented my view that 'waging offensive warfare against unbelievers because they are unbelievers' contradicts other verses of the Koran. (See, I too am agreeing with you - good shafique!)

Good to see that you don't disagree that my initial view is that of Ibn Abbas, etc - all supported by evidence and quotes saying that the verse is a contradiction.

It is most welcoming that you have expressed your belief - and it is a valid one, many other Muslims also believe the Koran to be literally true and don't want to acknowledge the evidence presented by Koranic scholars listed. Some even have convinced themselves that the Koran contains no contradictions.

Berrin · Oct 17, 2009

lets read and find out further event horizon....

Jihad Renegotiated
Interpretations of the Related Sunnah; A Revision
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... FDIELayout

Islam and Terror: From the Perspective of Fethullah Gülen
http://www.fethullahgulen.org/conferenc ... gulen.html

Why are there verses in the Qur’an that encourage Muslims to kill non-believers wherever they find them?
http://www.whyislam.org/SocialOrder/Jih ... fault.aspx

War and fighting in the Quran
http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/relig ... quran.html

shafique · Oct 17, 2009

It is good that we are beginning to agree - I totally agree that there are some that share your views about certain aspects of Islam, but as I stated before, this thread is about whether the Quran contradicts your view of 9.29 etc.

I agree with you that it does indeed.

Now - whether one chooses to believe your interpretation should be followed or whether the contradictory verses are the true teachings of Islam vis-a-vis treatment of Jews and Christians - well that has been debated ad-nauseum in other threads (eg 'the ethics of war in Islam' etc) - and indeed the 'Koranic scholars' have all commented on what Islam teaches in terms of wars - and you have misleadingly quoted a small number of them.

But thanks again for posting something that I can agree with - the Quran does indeed contradict your interpretation of 9.29.

It is heartwarming indeed that you accept that the view of Muslims that the Quran is the literal word of God is a 'valid' one. I can see that this would be galling for a person who quoted scholars whose studies have confirmed that the same cannot be said about the Bible (you quoted Kung, for example) - and that this is an accepted fact now by all and sundry (that the Bible contains fabricated by Pauline Christians and which don't appear in the earliest manuscripts). But I won't go any further, as this is a thread about the Quran contradicting your interpretation of 9.29. Nice of you to keep bumping this thread.

(You are getting better at the copying and pasting - the next step is to improve the comprehension of what you are posting

- and perhaps answering the unanswered questions, such as Goldstein etc)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 18, 2009

Now - whether one chooses to believe your interpretation should be followed or whether the contradictory verses are the true teachings of Islam vis-a-vis treatment of Jews and Christians

Actually it's the interpretation of mainstream Sunni Islam. I refer you back to my quote from The Reliance of the Traveler, a classic manual of Islamic sacred law endorsed by al-Azhar university, which says the Caliph is to wage offensive warfare against unbelievers until they live under an Islamic theocracy. If you are having trouble with reading quotes again, as you did recently in the thread on the Toronto Jihadists, I can re-post the link and you can confirm the passage for yourself.

As I said, I have no problem confirming the fact that mainstream Sunni Islam calls for perpetual Jihad warfare against unbelievers.

and indeed the 'Koranic scholars' have all commented on what Islam teaches in terms of wars

I can only quote what I find online. If you have another manual of Islamic law endorsed by al-Azhar university that contradicts the manual I quoted from, please post it and we can see why there is a contradiction in Islamic law.

and you have misleadingly quoted a small number of them.

Unlike quoting from two New Testament scholars after doing a bit of googling???

But thanks again for posting something that I can agree with - the Quran does indeed contradict your interpretation of 9.29.

I agree - the mainstream Muslim interpretation of the Koran's passages contradicts the qadiani interpretation of the Koran's passages. But that should not be surprising, qadianis believe in many strange things that mainstream Islam completely rejects.

and that this is an accepted fact now by all and sundry (that the Bible contains

Oh gawd. You're not actually going to try and claim you're well versed on modern Biblical scholarship now, are you? Let's just stick to the Koran where modern scholarly criticism has had a field day of sorts in dissecting and analyzing its passages.

fabricated by Pauline Christians and which don't appear in the earliest manuscripts)

I don't know. The quotes of the New Testament found in the writings of the apostolic fathers is decades before the earliest extant manuscripts. But I'm sure you knew this.

But I won't go any further, as this is a thread about the Quran contradicting your interpretation of 9.29. Nice of you to keep bumping this thread.

I agree. Perhaps you can explain why Ibn Abbas and the companions of Muhammad were wrong in their belief that the Koran contains contradictions and your interpretation is correct?

event horizon · Oct 18, 2009

Berrin wrote:In those days, the conditions of the Muslims ordered to spread the message of God was very harsh under persecution and their struggle to establish it was of different nature compared to today’s world of teaching and spreading Islam and living with Islam..

Well, I don't know about that. Muslims tell me that the passages dealing with fighting in the ninth chapter of the Koran were sent down in the last two or three years of prophet Muhammad's life. During this time, Muhammad had already consolidated power over Mecca and the last existential threat to Muslim hegemony was crushed at the battle of Hunayn and siege of Ta'if.

However, while the ninth surah does refer to one of these encounters by name (the battle of Hunayn, if I'm not mistaken), 9:29 could not refer to this battle since the passage says to attack people of the book as well as other unbelievers in general.

Instead, I am told, 9:29 (and immediate following verses) and 9:123 refer to Muhammad's military campaigns against the Romans - such as the battle of Muta and the expedition to Tabuk. These conflicts were not defensive for the Muslims since Muta was, at best, a campaign of revenge (which included the taking of tributary/spoils of war, ie., 800 slaves from local Christian and Jewish tribes) or a land grab according to modern historians.

Unfortunately, Muslim history not only does not support your belief that these verses were revealed as passages of self defense for the Muslims - which would be awkward since Muslims were already given the green-light by Allah to fight in self defense in verses 2:190-193, Muslim historical accounts also show that Muhammad sent Khalid ibn Waleed and Ali to attack the Christian tribes in southern Arabia, including Yemen and these tribes posed no military threat to the Muslims.

It would seem that Muhammad's general policy at this time, when he was at the height of his power, was to attack all non-Muslim tribes that were not allied to Muhammad. This includes tribes who were neutral during the war between Muhammad and Mecca and tribes, such as the ones on the periphery of the Hijaz or outside of it, who had indeed never even heard of Muhammad or Islam until Muslim cavalry raided their village and plundered their towns.

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