event horizon wrote:As for your quaint belief on the New Testament, I've already invited you to compare the teachings in the New Testament regarding women with those in the Koran. I see you're fond of your old hat interpretation of a verse that says not to speak in church but is preceded by a verse that says for women to speak in church.
(I must have overlooked the previous 'invitation' mentioned above - but never one to pass by an invitation, here is a thread to discuss the points raised by oh sheikh above)
Ok, I guess I'll have to start with the Biblical verses relating to women then from the NT.
Let's start then.
1 Corinthians 11 - Paul says men have authority over women:
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
He continues and says women are too dumb to learn in church and must have their husbands teach them:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians 5 also repeats that women are subservient to men:
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (5:22-24)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife."
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
1 Timothy also repeats that women should be silent and learn submissively:
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Women are also to blame for Original sin (this is the reason for women not being able to teach, apparently):
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Oh, and just before these passages, the Bible instructs women to dress modestly - but it's a bit harsh to forbid gold, pearls etc!:
2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
In Titus, women are to be taught to be obedient to their husbands:
2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, (2:4-5)
"Teach the young women to be ... obedient to their own husbands."
2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
In Ephesians, women are to be submissive to husbands - but also to revere them (are you listening melika - this is pretty much more than the Iranians teach!):
5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
In Collossians, Paul tells men to love their wives (nothing wrong there) and the wives to submit:
3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Paul repeats that women should not braid their hair or wear gold, and should also submit to their husbands in 1 Peter (I only quote the verse relating to the hair and gold):
3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
Ok, now to the Quran and what God says about women.
Women have rights similar to men (explicit words), but men have some responsibilities over women (agreeing with Paul, I guess):
2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
in 2.282, God says that when a woman give testimony, she needs to have another woman to help her remember (not quite as harsh as the Bible saying women should only learn from men):
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (though forgetfulness) the other will remember.
4.11 does say women inherit half that of women (but what does the Bible say on inheritance of women - sheikh?)
God says why men are in charge of women (so agrees with the Bible in this regard):
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
God also tells women to dress modestly, but doesn't forbid braiding hair or wearing of jewellry (that's a relief to you melika, surely!)
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.