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Bora Bora wrote:the last thing OBL saw was an American blow him away.

*knock knock*
OBL: mien hunaak?
Answer: US navy seals

Dillon wrote:[ No one is suggesting the CIA supported the Taliban, they did however support the Mujahideen against the Soviet and DRA troops during the Soviet war. The Afghan Arabs were a force of 1,000’s of Arabs, recruited by OBL through the Pakistani ISI, (Inter Services Intelligence) and integrated within the Mujahideen.

The Mujahideen, of which OBL and the 1,000’s of Afghan Arabs were members, received funding, munitions and training provided by the CIA amongst others.

You didn't give any clue of this statement. In contrast wiki says that OBL provided Arab, not CIA, money for delivery hiered soldiers to Pakistan for further fighting in Afghanistan.

"Integrated part" sounds very funny for that diverse crowd. It looks like someone wants to belive in some conspiracy plot...

Red Chief wrote:

Dillon wrote:[ No one is suggesting the CIA supported the Taliban, they did however support the Mujahideen against the Soviet and DRA troops during the Soviet war. The Afghan Arabs were a force of 1,000’s of Arabs, recruited by OBL through the Pakistani ISI, (Inter Services Intelligence) and integrated within the Mujahideen.

The Mujahideen, of which OBL and the 1,000’s of Afghan Arabs were members, received funding, munitions and training provided by the CIA amongst others.

You didn't give any clue of this statement. In contrast wiki says that OBL provided Arab, not CIA, money for delivery hiered soldiers to Pakistan for further fighting in Afghanistan.

"Integrated part" sounds very funny for that diverse crowd. It looks like someone wants to belive in some conspiracy plot...

Amongst many other articles in the international press including the two I published earlier, Robin Cook, British Foreign Secretary 1997-2001, wrote of it extensively in his memoirs, while copyrighted material, I found this excerpt in a Guardian article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jul/0 ... evelopment

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of Mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organization would turn its attention to the west.

I don’t do conspiracy theories RC, you surprise me, I thought you would have understood this about me by now?

It's only another opinion or hypophesis without facts and digits, the same like yours. You cannot find them promptly probably due to insignificance of OBL's activity at that time.

Wiki wrote that OBL personally made paperwork, bought tickets and offer hospitality service in Pakistan only. I cannot see in your links anything that refused it.

Red Chief wrote:It's only another opinion or hypophesis without facts and digits, the same like yours. You cannot find them promptly probably due to insignificance of OBL's activity at that time.

Wiki wrote that OBL personally made paperwork, bought tickets and offer hospitality service in Pakistan only. I cannot see in your links anything that refused it.

Well as they say, 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink'

RC is right, Robin Cook's statement is his own belief. I'm not exactly sure how or why Cook supposedly has inside information, but if a minister in Britain has knowledge of CIA activities, then everyone else must be tight lipped right now. The fact is, is that people who have looked into this have dismissed the claims that OBL and the Afghan Arabs were trained by a handful of CIA operatives.

event horizon wrote:RC is right, Robin Cook's statement is his own belief. I'm not exactly sure how or why Cook supposedly has inside information, but if a minister in Britain has knowledge of CIA activities, then everyone else must be tight lipped right now. The fact is, is that people who have looked into this have dismissed the claims that OBL and the Afghan Arabs were trained by a handful of CIA operatives.

Not quite the case, because on the one hand there’s Middle Eastern analyst Hazhir Teimourian, Michael Powelson a Russian journalist, the BBC, the CBC (Canadian) Siegesmund von Ilsemann from Der Spiegel, Author Steve Coll, Robin Cook, British foreign secretary, Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan, Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia, Iranian FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, author David Gibbs and me who believe OBL and the Afghan Arabs enjoyed the support of the CIA.

On the other hand we have the CIA’s denial, EH and RC who believe he didn't!

Hmmm,… tough choice!

Yes EH has direct links with people in the CIA to know for a fact that didn't happen. Even if there is no proof the CIA and the Americans have meddled in so many countries in last 50 years it is not very hard to believe that OBL was indeed trained and supplied was the CIA.

It did "help" the mujahideen and the Afghan Arabs were part of that clan, so why is it so far fetched ?

Next there will be denial that the Americans never went into talks with the Taliban to invest millions if not billions over a pipeline through Afghanistan or that they were never invited to the US and later lost that to an Argentinian company. One could say its been choppy waters ever since.

One wonders if that every went through, would Taleban ruled Afghanistan be an ally of the States.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm

http://www.historycommons.org/context.j ... texasvisit

it is not very hard to believe that OBL was indeed trained and supplied was the CIA.

What did the CIA train him in? What was he supplied with? As RC has shown, OBL spent time recruiting Arabs to Afghanistan. I've never seen OBL with a stinger and I've never read he supplied the Afghans with them either.

Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan

...

....Claimed OBL was murdered by Ahmed Omar Sheikh Said several years ago.

The rest of your sources appear to be people stating their beliefs or repeating Chinese whispers. Instead of a list, provide the individuals who have investigated the claim, provided information rather than make a statement on their belief or would have been people in the know at the time this was happening, such as Prince Bandar. The quote from Bandar, on Larry King live, doesn't actually say the CIA provided direct help to OBL, but that we helped OBL by fighting against his enemy:

Bandar bin Sultan: This is ironic. In the mid-'80s, if you remember, we and the United - Saudi Arabia and the United States were supporting the Mujahideen to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets. He [Osama bin Laden] came to thank me for my efforts to bring the Americans, our friends, to help us against the atheists, he said the communists. Isn't it ironic?

Larry King: How ironic. In other words, he came to thank you for helping bring America to help him.

Bandar bin Sultan: Right.

Now, someone could just as easily replace OBL and United States with Soviet Union and Australia in commenting how the Soviets helped the Austrialians win the war in the Pacific. Did the Soviets actually directly help the Austrialians fight against the Japanese? Well, no, to my knowledge, there was no direct help. The Americans worked directly with the Austrialians, but the Soviets helped the Australians by invading mainland China. That is how the comment from Prince Bandar could just as easily be read. In fact, given the context of the quote, Larry King Live, it would be more likely for the quote to have been understood that way.

The comment from a former FBI translator is according to Iranian state television. I can't find a single snippet of her actually saying OBL was trained/supported by the CIA, nor why an FBI translator would know this out of thousands of other people who work in the US military and intelligence services.

The BBC, CBC and Der Speigel can be dismissed if they never actually provide evidence to the partnership between the CIA and OBL.

Out of everyone you listed, only Siegesmund and David Gibbs provide details to a connection between OBL and the CIA.

It doesn't actually help Siegesmund's credibility in an article from 2007 when I read this:

Two decades later, US commandos are hunting for the world’s most notorious terrorist and his Taliban helpers. Military and civilian aircraft flying over Afghanistan are still forced to make evasive maneuvers to avoid Stinger missiles fired at them which were originally supplied by the United States to fight the Communists.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 21,00.html

That's absolutely absurd. There's never been a reported instance, to my knowledge, of Afghans using Stinger missiles against the United States in Afghanistan. The platforms we sent had a life of a few years. Siegesmund's credibility has taken a hit. Hopefully your other source, Gibbs, can actually salvage any credibility still remaining.

You know what EH? you can attempt to discredit the list until you're blue in the face, it doesn't matter in the slightest to me, as my opinion is, they all have more credibility over any statement made by the CIA, on any day of the week!

Well, I suppose you'll need to characterize everyone who disagrees with you as a CIA agent. Roy Olivier and Peter Bergen can now go back to Langley after their role in the working for the CIA has been uncovered. But, in reality, your argument is now headed down the path of what shafique would have said.

event horizon wrote:Well, I suppose you'll need to characterize everyone who disagrees with you as a CIA agent. Roy Olivier and Peter Bergen can now go back to Langley after their role in the working for the CIA has been uncovered. But, in reality, your argument is now headed down the path of what shafique would have said.

To suppose that, would be a mistake.

So that’s how it works is it? I’ve often wondered what the rules were surrounding the ‘fail’ or the more effective ‘EPIC FAIL’ contest that you and Shafique so dearly love to label each other’s point of view, so, let me get this right, if you don’t agree with my opinion, you are the EPIC FAIL…right, or is that just a fail?

Nope, no mention of an epic fail. According to DD, OBL was trained by the CIA. I'll wait for him to tell us what the CIA trained him in.