Operation Mini Cast Lead

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Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 01, 2010
Haaretz is having a blinder of a day today - this time Levy tackles head on the spin:

Operation Mini Cast Lead
By Gideon Levy

Like in "Mini-Israel," the park where there is everything, but smaller, Israel embarked yesterday on a mini Operation Cast Lead. Like its larger, losing predecessor, this operation had it all: the usual false claim that is was they who had started it - and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters. There was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara; that the blockade on Gaza is legal and that the flotilla to its shores is against the law - God knows which law.

Again came the claim of self defense, that "they lynched us" and that all the dead are on their side. Once more the use of violence and excessive and lethal force was in play and once more civilians wound up dead.


This action also featured the pathetic focus on "public relations," as if there is something to explain, and again the sick question was asked: Why didn't the soldiers use more force.

Again Israel will pay a heavy diplomatic price, once which had not been considered ahead of time. Again, the Israeli propaganda machine has managed to convince only brainwashed Israelis, and once more no one asked the question: What was it for? Why were our soldiers thrown into this trap of pipes and ball bearings? What did we get out of it?

If Cast Lead was a turning point in the attitude of the world toward us, this operation is the second horror film of the apparently ongoing series. Israel proved yesterday that it learned nothing from the first movie.

Yesterday's fiasco could and should have been prevented. This flotilla should have been allowed to pass and the blockade should be brought to an end.

This should have happened a long time ago. In four years Hamas has not weakened and Gilad Shalit was not released. There was not even a sign of a gain.

And what have we instead? A country that is quickly becoming completely isolated. This is a place that turns away intellectuals, shoots peace activists, cuts off Gaza and now finds itself in an international blockade. Once more yesterday it seemed, and not for the first time, that Israel is increasingly breaking away from the mother ship, and losing touch with the world - which does not accept its actions and does not understand its motives.

Yesterday there was no one on the planet, not a newsman or analyst, except for its conscripted chorus, who could say a good word about the lethal takeover.

The Israel Defense Forces too came out looking bad again. The magic evaporated long ago, the most moral army in the world, that was once the best army in the world, failed again. More and more there is the impression that nearly everything it touches causes harm to Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... d-1.293417

shafique
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 01, 2010
here was the claim that the first act of violence came not from the soldiers, but the rioting activists on Mavi Marmara;



The video evidence shows that it was the activists on the ship who carried out violence against the Israelis first, not the other way around as the author would like us to believe.

But hey, I guess the old saying is used pretty much everywhere - repeat a big enough lie often enough, and people will start to believe it.

This time, Israel was able to counter the spin early on before the lies of Free Gaza (nineteen people had been killed, the activists were waving white flags, not metal pipes at the soldiers, etc, etc) had much chance to spread uncontested throughout the internet and TV screens.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then video of crazed activists pummeling soldiers armed with paintball guns is worth a million.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
As Levy put it:
... the usual false claim that is was they who had started it - and not the landing of commandos from helicopters on a ship in open sea, away from Israeli territorial waters.
..
Yesterday there was no one on the planet, not a newsman or analyst, except for its conscripted chorus, who could say a good word about the lethal takeover.


I guess that would make you part of the 'conscripted chorus' eh. No surprises there then.

I also see that ynet is trawling the bottom of the barrel and looking for more examples - and kudos to them, the found one student who believes the world is flat - oops, that Israel wasn't to blame.. and tried to spin him as the gallant one against a frenzied 'mob'. However, the world looks beyond the hype these days and sees the body counts.

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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Still waiting for that evidence that the Israelis committed the first act of violence on that ship.

Tick tock.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
^''Ask, and what you ask for shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and the door shall be opened to you"


Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

(Sorry it took all of 10 mins to answer - ;) - I know you're busy not answering questions in the religion forum! ;) )

You may also be interested in reading what these people say (one is German politician):
http://dalje.com/en-world/german-and-greek-eyewitnesses-on-israeli-commando-action/307256

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Shafique
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
event horizon wrote:Still waiting for that evidence that the Israelis committed the first act of violence on that ship.

Tick tock.


Are you kidding???? :twisted: Or are you taking Israel's statements as gospel???
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Translation: You don't have any evidence. You have accounts from the Free Gaza freaks who have been shown time and again to be liars (including how much goods were actually on their ships - now it looks like there was less than 1500 tons and not the 15000 tons they claimed they were delivering, the number of people who died, etc., etc.,).

But hey, I guess if the Israelis opened fire on the ship before the commandos dropped in, we would have evidence of bullet holes on the deck or hull. I mean, .50 caliber rounds aren't going to just bounce off (oh, I guess our 'witnesses' didn't think of that).

One also wonders why the video that the Israelis provided shows the terror activists running towards the helicopters, as opposed to, you know, away from the choppers ? !!!!

-- Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:05 am --

Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."


Yeah, as you can clearly see from the video, the Israelis are opening fire as they descend from the chopper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nRbcwnp ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN ... _embedded#!

Terror activists clearly using a wooden baton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcb ... r_embedded

Clearly you can see wooden batons, not metal rods or a chain at one point.

(Oh, and did you catch those muzzle flashes when the Israelis opened fire on the terror activists, no?)

Let me know when you want me to take your arguments seriously.

If not, I'll let Rob come in and clean up.

-- Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:07 am --

Bora Bora wrote:
event horizon wrote:Still waiting for that evidence that the Israelis committed the first act of violence on that ship.

Tick tock.


Are you kidding???? :twisted: Or are you taking Israel's statements as gospel???


No, I'm not kidding. I'm waiting for evidence that the Israelis opened fire (with machine guns on the helicopters, since the Israelis commandos did not have machine guns themselves - they had paintball guns) on the activists.

Do you have any evidence? Apparently using common sense is taking one's account as Gospel.

Who knew?
event horizon
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Nice summary eh.

You forgot to count body bags though.

As Levy said, the 'conscripted chorus' will believe the 'usual false claim' that Israel was the victim. Hey, I usually root for the underdog - and I'm therefore seriously considering joining you in defending the 'keystone commandos' actions in the Gaza flotilla massacre.

How about we also say:
"Those marbles and sling shots - nasty weapons, and those big bad bearded Turks took our boys by surprise when they asked with menaces for the guns to be handed over. Our guys' training told them to 'play dead' and let themselves be thrown off the decks.."
(I guess I'm not very good at this 'spinning' .. sorry. ;) )

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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Hey, let me know when you have any evidence that the Israelis opened up fire first or were the ones to first use violence.

The videos don't support your belief. But I suppose changing the subject is a clever way of not answering my question and an even better way for others to forget that the author of your article was in fact lying.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Hey dude - I'm on your side now. I'm having a drink of Coke and wearing a baseball cap and chewing gum...

Here's another argument we can use - those bleeding heart liberal 'peace activists' should be grateful it wasn't 'our boys' who stormed the ship - if it were so, we'd kill all those on board :shock: :


A former US national security chief on CNN: “I mean, imagine for a moment if you had videotape of a U.S. Navy SEAL being thrown by civilians off the side of a ship. We would be surprised if not everybody on that ship was killed as a result of that.”
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1005/31/sitroom.02.html


Now, of course our boys are better trained than the 'keystone commandos' and won't be thrown off a deck by civilians.. but IF they did, we'd blow the ship out of the water. Yee haa!

;)

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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
eh - I having a hard time poking holes in this argument though - can you help me out..

Patrick Cockburn: PR dangerously distorts the Israeli sense of realit

An old Israeli saying describing various less-than-esteemed military leaders says: "He was so stupid that even the other generals noticed." The same derisive remark could be applied almost without exception to the present generation of Israeli politicians.


Such healthy scepticism among Israelis about the abilities of their military and political leaders has unfortunately ebbed in recent decades. As a result, Israelis are left perplexed as to why their wars, military interventions and armed actions have so often ended in failure since the 1973 war, despite the superiority of their armed forces.

The latest example of this is the assault on the Gaza aid convoy by naval commandos, a confrontation initiated by Israel which thereby ensured that the convoy's organisers achieved their objectives to a degree beyond their wildest dreams. By using assault troops in a police action against civilians with predictably bloody results Israel managed to focus international attention on its blockade of Gaza, which the world had hitherto largely ignored. The Israeli action infuriated Turkey, once its strongest ally in the region, and strengthened the claim of Hamas to Palestinian leadership.

The capacity of Israel to shoot itself in the foot needs explanation. From the beginning the operation was idiotic, since Israel was always likely to look bad after any confrontation between élite troops and civilian protesters. Even more ludicrous is the Israeli explanation that their élite and heavily armed soldiers were at risk of their lives because they had to use thick gloves to protect their hands when sliding down cables from a helicopter and therefore could not use their weapons.

The nature of the fiasco should cause little surprise because such botched Israeli military actions have been the norm for years. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon was discredited by the massacre of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Christian militias loosed on them by Israeli army commanders. Syria, not Israel, became the predominant power in Lebanon. In south Lebanon, the Israeli army fought a long and unsuccessful guerrilla war against Hizbollah. The bombardments of Lebanon in 1996 and 2006 left Hizbollah stronger, and a similar attack on Gaza in 2008 failed to weaken Hamas.

The problem is that nobody believes Israeli propaganda as much as Israelis. Pro-Palestinian activists often lament the fluency and mendacity of Israeli spokesmen on the airwaves and the pervasive influence of Israel's supporters abroad. But, in reality, these PR campaigns are Israel's greatest weakness, because they distort Israelis' sense of reality. Defeats and failures are portrayed as victories and successes.

The slaughter of civilians is justified as a military necessity or somehow the fault of the other side. Opponents are demonised as bloodthirsty terrorists. Comforted by such benign accounts of their activities, Israeli leaders are consumed by arrogance because they come to believe they have never made a mistake. Denial that errors have occurred makes it extremely difficult to sack generals or ministers, however gross their incompetence or record of failure.

Many Israelis privately take their own propaganda with a pinch of salt, though the number is diminishing. But abroad, the most third-rate Israeli politicians strut before fawning audiences as heroic defenders of the state. Not surprisingly they return home with a dangerously inflated idea of their own abilities and in a perilously self-important mood.

The Israeli propaganda machine, official and private, has been running full throttle in the last few days justifying the assault on the aid convoy to Gaza. Probably spokesmen feel they are performing well given the weakness of their case. In fact, they do nothing but harm to Israel. The greater their success in denying gross and culpable mistakes, the more likely it is that the perpetrators will hold their jobs – and the more likely it is that the mistakes will be endlessly repeated.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Oh, OK EH. Short version of your post: Israel never lies. Israel tells the truth. Trust the film footage that Israel provided.

I have two offers for you:

(1) I have a bridge for sale. It's in Brooklyn. It's called the Verrazano. Are you interested?

(2) The moon is made of cheese. I'm going to open a business and am looking for investors. I plan on having my own shuttle to transport the cheese back to earth. This is a once in a life time opportunity. I'm inviting you to get in on this. It will cost you $100,000 to invest and in a year's time you will realize a profit of 10,000%.

-- Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:45 am --

@ EH. You are unbelieveable and seriously delusional. I am not going to give you the time as Shaf has because your arguments are not worthy of a serious response.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Not delusional, just interested in the facts.

The Free Gaza claim was that Israel opened fire from their helicopters onto the ship below before their commandos disembarked.

The footage I saw does not gel with the Free Gaza claim that shafique parroted on this thread - we see footage of the 'activists' running towards the helicopters just as the soldiers roped down onto the ship, not away from the helicopters as common sense would tell me would be the most likely approach (and one of the videos shown was taken by the activists side, not the Israeli side).

I didn't see any gun flashes and there aren't more reports by the activists that the Israelis opened fire with .50 machine guns on the activists below. Regardless on the number of reports, proving that the Israelis opened fire would be easy - .50 cal guns would leave unmistakable bullet holes in the ship's deck and hull.

None of this type of evidence is provided, only witness reports from groups of people who have a history of lying.

-- Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:39 pm --

Visibly shaken German activists who were on an aid ship Mavi Marmara bound for Gaza raided by Israeli commandos said Tuesday that nobody on board was armed with anything more than a few wooden batons.

A German doctor on the ship, Matthias Jochheim, who had bloodstains on his trousers from people he treated, said that he had personally seen four dead people and that he expected the total death toll to be 15.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT ... r_embedded

If you squint, those metal rods could resemble wooden batons.

What do you think?

LoL.

Another confirmed case of the activists lying.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 02, 2010
Bora Bora wrote:@ EH. You are unbelieveable and seriously delusional. I am not going to give you the time as Shaf has because your arguments are not worthy of a serious response.


I totally disagree, EH for once does make sense. But seriously BB if EH is delusional then what does that make Berrin and Shafique???? They're all in the same boat and ur taking sides! Did u even read Berrin's post where he dug some crap out accusing the Israelis of profiling protesters before killing em!!!
So to sum up BB, stick what it is you do best, and that's....Calling a spade a spade!(unlike this one time)
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 03, 2010
event horizon wrote:Not delusional, just interested in the facts.

The Free Gaza claim was that Israel opened fire from their helicopters onto the ship below before their commandos disembarked.


Yes.

And what is the Israeli spin - that the humanitarian activists were terrorist sympathisers who wanted to lynch the noble saviours?

Do you not recall that FD's first defence was that the IDF reported that the activists shot at the commandos first and then the Commandos opened fire ('they were met by fire' I think he said). And don't you recall that the initial reports said the 'terrorists' had guns and a rifle?

The reality turns out different:
the Israelis have released a photo of the weapons they found on board, (which amount to some knives and tools and wooden sticks) that the naive might think you'd expect to find on any ship, but the more astute will recognise as exactly what you'd carry if you were planning to defeat the Israeli army. It's an armoury smaller than you'd find in the average toolshed in a garden in Cirencester, which goes to show the Israelis had better destroy Cirencester quickly as an essential act of self-defence.


You're demonstrating, to a T, what this guy describes:

That would be as logical as the statement from the Israeli PM's spokesman – "We made every possible effort to avoid this incident." Because the one tiny thing they forgot to do to avoid this incident was not send in armed militia from helicopters in the middle of the night and shoot people. I must be a natural at this sort of technique because I often go all day without climbing off a helicopter and shooting people, and I'm not even making every possible effort. Politicians and commentators worldwide repeat a version of this line. They're aware a nation has sent its militia to confront people carrying provisions for the desperate, in the process shooting several of them dead, and yet they angrily blame the dead ones. One typical headline yesterday read "Activists got what they wanted – confrontation." It's an attitude so deranged it deserves to be registered as a psychosis, something like "Reverse Slaughter Victim Confusion Syndrome".


http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/this-one-worth-reading-for-the-laughs-t42121.html


Take a step back and examine your argument - you seem to be focussing on the trees and missing the forest eh - seriously.

As commentators in Israel are clearly saying, this was all forseeable and avoidable:
dubai-politics-talk/seven-idiots-the-cabinet-t42110.html

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Shafique
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 03, 2010
That would be as logical as the statement from the Israeli PM's spokesman – "We made every possible effort to avoid this incident." Because the one tiny thing they forgot to do to avoid this incident was not send in armed militia from helicopters in the middle of the night and shoot people. I must be a natural at this sort of technique because I often go all day without climbing off a helicopter and shooting people, and I'm not even making every possible effort. Politicians and commentators worldwide repeat a version of this line. They're aware a nation has sent its militia to confront people carrying provisions for the desperate, in the process shooting several of them dead, and yet they angrily blame the dead ones. One typical headline yesterday read "Activists got what they wanted – confrontation." It's an attitude so deranged it deserves to be registered as a psychosis, something like "Reverse Slaughter Victim Confusion Syndrome".


Yes, that's what I'm asking for evidence for.

The author's claim that the Israelis opened fire first/used violence first is met with serious skepticism from anyone who watched the videos and has a lick of common sense.

But hey, beyond merely re-posting a claim whose accuracy is under scrutiny, you'd think one would actually address the points raised.

(Oh, and I see you haven't commented on the video clearly showing that the combatants on the ship were armed with metal rods, not two and a half wooden batons as the lying German politician previously claimed)

-- Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 am --

And what is the Israeli spin - that the humanitarian activists were terrorist sympathisers who wanted to lynch the noble saviours?


No, that's what a French terrorism official is saying.

Funny how everything suddenly becomes Israeli spin even when the Israelis have nothing to do with it.

Do you not recall that FD's first defence was that the IDF reported that the activists shot at the commandos first and then the Commandos opened fire ('they were met by fire' I think he said). And don't you recall that the initial reports said the 'terrorists' had guns and a rifle?


Sure, I recall the Free Gaza people claiming that 19 combatants died on that ship, don't you?

I recall a German politician aboard the ship claiming the combatants were only armed with wooden batons, don't you?

I recall an al-Jizya reporter aboard the ship claiming that the combatants were waving white flags, not metal rods, don't you?

I remember other 'eye-witnesses' aboard the ship similarly claim that the Israelis opened fire on the combatants as the commandos were being roped down to the deck, don't you?

As for the part of your comment I underlined, that claim by the Israelis has not changed. The Israelis still maintain that they were given permission to use their sidearms after the combatants on the ship began firing at them with live rounds. Don't see why you would mention that as spin that has now changed.

So, we have one example on the Israeli side of the story officially changing (there may not have been rifles on board the ship, unless someone was smart enough to throw 'em overboard) and four examples on the Free Gaza side being shown to have been lies or officially changing - the Free Gaza freaks are now admitting that the combatants on that ship weren't passively resisting as they initially claimed.

Funny how stories change. Common sense tells me that initial reports will always be wrong do to various reasons. But it's clear to me that the Free Gaza/Pal-Arab spin was a deliberate campaign to spread rumors and lies.

Do you agree that the Free Gaza people have spread lies and that their official/initial version of events has either been shown to be false or has now changed?
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 03, 2010
Israel clearly lied early on and has now backpedalled - the impression given early on was that the humanitarians fired upon the comedians..commandos and had guns. Now it transpires they had less than can be found in a suburban shed. Yes, also there were initial reports of 19 killed - and that was before Israel clamped down on information on the killings. Lets see - but 9 or 19 civilians killed doesn't really change much the fact it was a massacre.

If it was 9 Israeli civilians killed by Hamas- the US press would surely call it a massacre (and there's precedence for this). When it is non-israelis killed, it is a 'tragedy'. However, this massacre was both forseeable and avoidable - as I linked to above.

A word of advice - when you're in a hole, it is normally sound advice to put the shovel down. ;)

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Shafique
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 03, 2010
Israel clearly lied early on and has now backpedalled


There is a difference between being wrong and lying.

A soldier reported seeing a combatant on the ship with a rifle. Perhaps he had mistaken the object for something else, but in any event, one soldier's account doesn't show that Israel had lied.

I'm not even sure why I would need to explain this.

the impression given early on was that the humanitarians fired upon the comedians


They were fired upon. Two Israeli soldiers received firearm injuries.

Unless you're now claiming that it was the Israelis who opened up fire first, the Israeli version of events has not changed.

You do realize this, don't you?

commandos and had guns


The combatants did have firearms.

Now it transpires they had less than can be found in a suburban shed.


Hey, let's complain if you ever fire on armed attackers armed only with knives.
Yes, also there were initial reports of 19 killed


Great, so you agree with me that the Free Gaza people lied.

Five plus lies on the Free Gaza side and one 'lie' on the Israeli side.

Lets see - but 9 or 19 civilians killed doesn't really change much the fact it was a massacre.


Pot. Kettle. Black. Did you think I'd forget of the killing of thirty Jewish diplomats the Muslims murdered?

Funny how excuses change depending on who the perps and victims are.

If it was 9 Israeli civilians killed by Hamas


I guess I'll have to wait for the next time Hamas sends in commandos armed with paint ball guns, has their men separated and stumped on by a mob armed with knives and metal rods and uses deadly force after their men are first fired upon.


LoL. You can't be serious.
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Re: Operation Mini Cast Lead Jun 03, 2010
event horizon wrote:
There is a difference between being wrong and lying.


Now, what did I say about putting down that shovel?

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