Mid East Peace

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Mid East Peace Aug 06, 2009
Hello folks - I thought I'd look in to see what's happening. I see that Flying Dutchman is still waving the flag for the Israeli regime and repeating the party lines! ;)

As a counterbalance, I thought I'd reproduce this recent article from Haaretz:


The UNSC's responsibility for Middle East peace
07.22.2009 | Haaretz

By Henry Siegman
The international community may finally be beginning to register the utter futility of decades-long expectations that an Israeli government would agree to a fair and workable peace agreement, one that would end the four-decade subjugation and denial of the Palestinian people’s national and individual rights.

One hopes that is the significance of the proposal by European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who suggested that the UN Security Council assume responsibility for establishing a Palestinian state by a certain deadline if the parties have not reached an agreement. The Security Council would then set the borders of Israel and a new Palestinian state, and formulate parameters to resolve the other permanent status issues - Jerusalem, refugees and security.

Of course, this cannot happen without U.S. assent and leadership, which is unlikely if such a proposal is incorrectly seen as punishment for non-performance, rather than understood as the original intent of resolutions 242 and 338, which called for Israel’s return to the 1967 borders. As I have written previously, the Security Council’s responsibility for resolving the consequences of the Six-Day War if the parties were unable to do so was implicit in the resolutions’ language, which stressed the inadmissibility of acquiring territory through war. Israel’s occupation policy and its vast settlement [aka 'colonial']enterprise have been based on the contrary assumption - if no peace agreement is reached with the Palestinians, the resolutions’ “default” is the indefinite continuation of the occupation of Palestinian lands and people.

If this reading were correct, the Security Council resolutions would have served as an irresistible invitation to Israel - and to all other occupiers - to avoid peace talks in order to preserve the status quo, which of course is exactly what Israel has been doing, in clear violation of Resolution 242’s declaration that territory cannot be acquired by war.

Israel’s contention has long been that since no Palestinian state existed before the 1967 war, there is no recognized border to withdraw to, because the pre-1967 border was merely an armistice line. Moreover, since Resolution 242 calls for a “just and lasting peace” that will allow “every state in the area [to] live in security,” Israel holds that it must be allowed to change the armistice line, either bilaterally or unilaterally, to make it secure before it ends the occupation.

These are specious arguments for many reasons, but principally because UN General Assembly Partition Resolution 181 of 1947, which established the Jewish state’s international legitimacy, also recognized the remaining Palestinian territory outside the Jewish state’s borders as - at the very least - the equally legitimate patrimony of Palestine’s Arab population, on which they were entitled to establish their own state, and it precisely mapped the borders of that territory. Resolution 181’s affirmation of the right of Palestine’s Arab population to national self-determination was based on normative law and the democratic principle that grants statehood to the majority population. (At the time, Arabs constituted two-thirds of the population in Palestine.) This right does not evaporate because of delays in implementation.

I have argued in my writings over the years that the international community has failed to reject Israel’s notion that the occupation and the creation of “facts on the ground” can go on indefinitely, so long as there is no agreement acceptable to Israel. This failure has defeated all previous peace initiatives and peace envoys. Current efforts will meet the same fate if this fundamental issue is not finally addressed. The U.S. and the international community must finally act on the resolutions’ plain logic that the default is a return to the status quo ante, the pre-1967 border - without territorial and other changes that negotiations and a peace agreement might have produced.

What is required, as proposed by Solana, is a Security Council resolution affirming that changes to the pre-1967 situation can be made only by agreement between the parties, and that unilateral measures will not receive international recognition; the default of Resolution 242 is a return of Israel’s occupying forces to the pre-1967 border; and that if the parties do not reach an agreement within a defined period, the default setting of the 1967 and 1973 resolutions will be invoked by the Security Council. The Security Council will then adopt its own terms for an end to the conflict, and will arrange for an international force to enter the occupied territories to help establish the rule of law, assist Palestinians in building their institutions, assure Israel’s security by preventing cross-border violence, and oversee the implementation of its terms for an end to the conflict.

President Obama has indicated he intends to present Israel and the Palestinian Authority with a framework for a permanent status agreement. His aim of Middle East peace before the two-state solution disappears would be best served if such a framework were to become the basis of a Security Council resolution establishing a Palestinian state.

The writer is the director of the U.S./Middle East Project, and a former national director of the American Jewish Congress. He also serves as a visiting associate professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1101703.html

shafique
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Re: Mid East Peace Aug 07, 2009
shafique wrote:Hello folks - I thought I'd look in to see what's happening. I see that Flying Dutchman is still waving the flag for the Israeli regime and repeating the party lines! ;)


Your cross-forum obsession for me is very creepy.
Flying Dutchman
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Aug 07, 2009
:lol:

My 'obsession' with correcting your mistaken views started in this forum (where it seems I am 'master of thread hijackers'!).

But I see that avoiding the facts continues to be a trait that you need to follow in your jihad ;) - or perhaps I am wrong and you are agreeing with the Haaretz article?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Aug 07, 2009
I still wonder why these guys stand for Isreal afterall ?! thats really sad ...
catalyst
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Aug 07, 2009
Not taking sides here; but watch "Children of Abraham" a well researched and balanced documentary.

The name Abraham is used, not to imply that it does not recognise Ibrahim, only that the base language is English. The presenter establishes this very early on.

(its available on youtube and google)

It offers no answers but does identify many of the issues, and how on all sides there are the full range of perspectives.
viking-warrior
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Aug 07, 2009
viking-warrior wrote:Not taking sides here; but watch "Children of Abraham" a well researched and balanced documentary.


Good recommendation.

The C4 documentary from 2004 is reviewed here:

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsi ... raham.html

..and it seems to sum up the issue quite well:
...
And in the Middle East, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is at bottom a political conflict between Zionism and Palestinian nationalism. Zionism started as a secular political movement which was often anti-religious and was regarded as heretical by the rabbis. Many religious Jews continue to reject Zionism to this day.

Family feuds
Indeed it could be argued that an overlapping set of shared beliefs can be an aggravating factor: the fact that the same texts are interpreted in opposite ways can be an additional cause of friction. In medieval times, Jews fared worse in Christendom than under Muslim rule, despite sharing a holy book with Christians in the Old Testament – or perhaps because of it.


Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Aug 07, 2009
When combined - Politics and Religion is the single most volatile mixture on the planet whose only result is vitriolic hatred, governed by those who stand to benefit.

Shakespeare wrote "The devil can cite scripture for his own purpose" [Merchant of Venice] and therein lies, I feel, the problem - unliateral interpretation.

In this day and age, where communication is tweetable, blog'able etc etc, why can't we get to the root of these problems, why can't a dialogue take place ?

Which leads to the question of public access & censorship ...... Hmmmm
viking-warrior
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Aug 08, 2009
That COA documentry is way too lonng! Watchd the first vid and a lil bit of the second it's nothing more than a valid historical referance. A political landscape where the boundaries were drawn in the old testament. What a joke! Besides I doubt Mr Mitchell cares two hoots bout it. Sumtime back time back I remember I had this dialogue with some Muslim friends of mine about Abraham being the the father of both religions, a theory they just did'nt agree with.
Besides the men who influence actions on the ground today have entirelly different objectives, where religion is just a spicy ingredient used to stir up emotions.
So why can't dialogue take place? Well people need to think on their own first. Maybe then.....

It's a pity that at a critical juncture like this, the Isreali's went hardcore and elected Binyamin Netanyahu. You see change can only come via the Isrealis as the political landscape of the Mid-East will not change!
All eyes are now on the Fatah convention although it's unfortunate that the one man who could make a difference Marwan Barghouti, is languishing in Isreali prison.
Misery Called Life
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Aug 10, 2009
Misery Called Life wrote:All eyes are now on the Fatah convention


Lets see what came out of that one:

-Fatah wants a Judenrein Palestine
-Fatah endorses the use of terrorism
-Fatah´s primary goal is the complete eradication of the Zionist entity
Flying Dutchman
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Aug 15, 2009
sadafattiq wrote:Resolution 181’s affirmation of the right of Palestine’s Arab population to national self-determination was based on normative law and the democratic principle that grants statehood to the majority population. (At the time, Arabs constituted two-thirds of the population in Palestine.) This right does not evaporate because of delays in implementation.


International law also demands reciprocity.
Arabs clearly didn´t accept 181, instead they tried to push the Jews into the sea. When they got their behind kicked, they started their whining, wanting to turn back the clock. Yeah, right. Pali´s are just not upto the responsibilities of statehood. Look what is happening in Gaza now, Islamists started to kill each other this week over some ideological conflict. Gaza could have been a new Dubai, an example for Pali statehood, instead they choose chaos and violence. Israel surely learned her lesson from this unilateral withdrawal.
Still they blame everybody, except for themselves. Like this guy. I am sure he is blaming the whole world except his own stupidity.
Flying Dutchman
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Aug 18, 2009
catalyst wrote:I still wonder why these guys stand for Israel afterall ?! thats really sad ...


Because they have to! "Israel" after all are the masters of the middle east
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Aug 18, 2009
chevaliers-de-sion wrote:
catalyst wrote:I still wonder why these guys stand for Israel afterall ?! thats really sad ...


Because they have to! "Israel" after all are the masters of the middle east


Go sleep :lol:
catalyst
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Aug 18, 2009
:)

I see that the fanboys are reverting to type - either trying to be funny or trying to justify why Israel should be above the law.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Aug 23, 2009
shafique wrote::)

I see that the fanboys are reverting to type - either trying to be funny or trying to justify why Israel should be above the law.

Cheers,
Shafique


"Israel"
after all are the masters of the middle east and are the law because they are the chosen ones so get over it you pagans
chevaliers-de-sion
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Aug 23, 2009
chevaliers-de-sion wrote:
shafique wrote::)

I see that the fanboys are reverting to type - either trying to be funny or trying to justify why Israel should be above the law.

Cheers,
Shafique


"Israel"
after all are the masters of the middle east and are the law because they are the chosen ones so get over it you pagans


why you didn't go sleep :wink:
catalyst
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