Bribe To Stop Building!

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Bribe to stop building! Nov 14, 2010
Tell me I'm not the only one that finds the US offer of 20 war planes to Israel in return for it stopping building for 90 days in parts (not all) of the occupied territories, extremely bizare.

If I were American I'd be pissed off - the fact that the Israeli govt is 'considering' the offer just adds insult to injury. The tail is wagging the dog folks. :shock:

Or am I missing something here (a bit jet lagged, and had to check that it wasn't a spoof):

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... e-1.324496

shafique
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 14, 2010
One man’s Incentive is another Man’s bribe, Incentives are the only tools available in negotiations of this nature, if your point is one of ethics? then regardless of what form the incentives would have been offered, if Israel wanted warplanes they would simply buy them with the provided incentives. International Aid and Incentives rarely take the form of hard cash and are usually provided in goods which can be easily converted. In the 1970’s most of Great Britain’s aid to Africa was provided in the form of agricultural equipment, mainly Tractors from David Brown and Massey Ferguson which were converted to munitions upon arrival in several African nations.

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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 14, 2010
shafique wrote:Tell me I'm not the only one that finds the US offer of 20 war planes to Israel in return for it stopping building for 90 days in parts (not all) of the occupied territories, extremely bizare.

If I were American I'd be pissed off - the fact that the Israeli govt is 'considering' the offer just adds insult to injury. The tail is wagging the dog folks. :shock:

Or am I missing something here (a bit jet lagged, and had to check that it wasn't a spoof):

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... e-1.324496


As an American taxpayer do I have a choice? Just how many Americans do you think are aware of what is given away to other countries at their expense? What deals America makes with other countries? The government used Americans through fear, lies and brainwashing to support a war. Keeping Americans ignorant about things such as this is best for the government. The majority of American taxpayers have no idea how the government spends their money. Government believes in telling people only what they want them to know. But, the US isn't alone in that type of governing.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 14, 2010
ditto in UK, Bora
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 14, 2010
Dillon - I have absolutely no issue with incentives in principle.

But war planes in exchange for a temporary (90 day) halt in only some of the occupied territories - AND the Israelis want to 'think' about it!! It just read like a sick joke to me. :shock:
(Perhaps they've agreed or rejected it since I posted..? )

Bora and Arnie - agree with you too - what's done in the name of citizens isn't in our control in practice.

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Shafique
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 14, 2010
Israel still has to pay for the planes. There is nothing new what the US "offers" Israel. There was already a deal for the planes (perhaps some terms changed). I donot quite understand why the US taxpayer has to be angry abt a deal profiting US business. :roll:
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 14, 2010
Really ? I was under the impression they were being given away as part of the incentive package. I could be wrong ?

Anyways the US does give around 3 billion in aid annually to Israel so I guess the American tax payer would at the end of the day footing the bill for those in anycase free or otherwise and does have the right be a little ticked off.

Its surprising how little clout the Americans ( Described sometimes as Israels only true if not only friend in the Israeli press ) have with the Israelis, but vice versa

White House Middle East adviser Dan Shapiro told a group of American Jewish leaders on Friday that U.S. was committed to fighting delegitimization of Israel, and listed recent efforts to advocate on behalf of Israel.

Such efforts included: curbing actions by the United Nations on the Goldstone Report; blocking anti-Israel UN resolutions concerning the Gaza flotilla raid; defeating international resolutions aimed at exposing Israel's nuclear program at the International Atomic Energy Agency; and strengthening pressure on Iran and Syria in regards to their nuclear and proliferation activities.


Who are these "American Jewish Leaders" ? And why does a White House official has to explain anything to them ?
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 14, 2010
desertdudeshj wrote:Anyways the US does give around 3 billion in aid annually to Israel so I guess the American tax payer would at the end of the day footing the bill for those in anycase free or otherwise and does have the right be a little ticked off.


Israel has to spend most of that money on US goods, responsible for tens of thousands of jobs. Israel also gives something in return, intelligence and sharing weapons data. Israel might be considered a "trial field' of US weapons.
I am not sure how the aid deal between Egypt and the US looks like. Why is the US aiding a brutal dictatorship out of US tax money? I think the answer is that ME peace is a US intrest.

And why does a White House official has to explain anything to them ?


Maybe because they represent 5% of US voters.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 14, 2010
I recently heard or read somewhere from a high ranking military official. That during the cold war days Israel was a strategic ally but nowadays its a strategic burden. ( sorry can't recall who or where )

Personally I've never read anywhere that the US aid to Israel is conditional in any way. And would agree to the to the above. If the US stopped its blind support ( read the quoted the text in the from the article ) There would be much less anti American or western sentiment in the region and the entire Muslim world.

And somehow I also to believe that last statment. I read " American Jewish leaders " as the pro Israeli lobbies. How come there are no White house officals talking to any Arab American Leaders there are around 3.5 million of them. A little more than half of the Jewish population.

And if there was this "Arab Lobby" I think you claimed it to be a very powerfull one at that in the other thread, correct me if I am wrong here. The White House would be doing a lot explaining to them and not doing any of the things I qouted from the article infact the total opposite. Don't you think ?
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 14, 2010
desertdudeshj wrote:Personally I've never read anywhere that the US aid to Israel is conditional in any way.


Consider today that day:

Congress has legislated other special provisions regarding aid to Israel. (..) Israel is allowed to spend about one-quarter of the military aid for the procurement in Israel of defense articles and services, including research and development, rather than in the United States.


source: wiki
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 14, 2010
A complete link would be appreciated. Thank you
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 15, 2010
Wow, and the Israelis still haven't taken up the incentive/bribe yet (whether they have to pay for it from the money the US give them or not, isn't material - it is the offer for the partial and temporary halt of the stealing of territory that's the point here).

So, someone takes control of a piece of land by force and constructs buildings on it to make use of it - the construction is deemed illegal by the law, and yet the one who says they want to enforce the laws and establish peace offer the occupiers more arms in return for stopping building on some parts of the occupied land.

crazee.

Of course, the Arab Lobby is much more powerful than the pro-Israel in the USA and the Palestinians have gained a whole military fleet and billions in aid in return for promising to make Backlava and thinking about playing nice with the Europeans (or did I dream this bit?) :)

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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 15, 2010
Well, the clock is ticking and the commentators are busy.

Haaretz is arguing quite well that Netanyahu has to pull his finger out and decide where he proposes the border of Israel will be. This will settle the issue of the land stealing and construction and remove the significant doubts that Israel does indeed want a two-country solution and peace (rather than the 'Greater Israel' that some in his coalition call for).

Where will Palestine be? is the title of this piece and it is a most valid question.

Here's just a quote from it:
The decision required from Netanyahu is clear: Accept the U.S. proposal, freeze settlement construction immediately, and determine the border on the basis of the new security understandings with the United States - even if such a decision requires a different coalition, such as one that includes Kadima and in which opposition leader Tzipi Livni takes Lieberman's place.

Instead of being enticed by futile games in the U.S. political arena, Netanyahu must demonstrate leadership and say yes, loudly and clearly, to U.S. President Barack Obama. Any other decision he might make will damage Israel and undermine the slim chance that remains for an agreement with the Palestinians.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... e-1.324726
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 15, 2010
Huh? Is Israel now asked to determine the borders? LoL! What a humiliation for the Palestinian negotiators!

The previous building freeze didnt lead to anything. So there will be no difference with a new one.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 15, 2010
LOL

shafique wrote:where he proposes the border of Israel will be.


I presume 'proposes' does translate into Dutch. ;)

However, I agree with you that the previous freezes in the construction in occupied territories were mostly a sham (houses were still built in that time, there was just a slow down and new construction didn't take place - mostly).

But I agree with Haaretz - let's see what Netanyahu proposes for borders. The clock is ticking - and the world awaits to see how much of the land captured in 1967 Israel wants to keep.

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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 15, 2010
Nope, determine is determine:

The decision required from Netanyahu is clear: Accept the U.S. proposal, freeze settlement construction immediately, and determine the border on the basis of the new security understandings with the United States


I find it extremely humiliating from the Haaretz article for the Palestinians that Israel should determine Pali borders. Final borders should be the outcome from a process, and not be dictated from one side.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 15, 2010
An interesting view. What Bibi determines is not necessarily what the world will agree to - but Haaretz is right that he should pull his finger out and tell the world.

Let's see what Bibi does - whether he does indeed follow Haaretz's advice and make clear what parts of occupied Palestine captured in 1967 he wants to keep.

The Palestinians and International law are pretty clear where Israel's control ended up until the 1967 war - so, it is only the Israelis who have to tell the world what they don't want to give back. The world and the Palestinians would be happy with the 22% of land - so what is Bibi waiting for?

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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 15, 2010
As Haaretz says:
Netanyahu is getting closer to the moment of decision, when he will be required to choose whether to move on to a two-state solution, as he promised, or to take refuge with political figures like Avigdor Lieberman, Eli Yishai and Daniel Hershkowitz. Will he continue to drag things out and come up with excuses while destroying ties with the Obama administration?


Do you disagree FD?

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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 15, 2010
shafique wrote:The Palestinians and International law are pretty clear where Israel's control ended up until the 1967 war


Israels control ended at the armistice lines, those are not borders.

shafique wrote:so, it is only the Israelis who have to tell the world what they don't want to give back.


Yeah, Israel can give it back to the Jordanians and let them decide what to do with it.

shafique wrote:The world and the Palestinians would be happy with the 22% of land - so what is Bibi waiting for?


Still living in the past.

-- Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:30 pm --

shafique wrote:Do you disagree FD?


Yes
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 15, 2010
Thanks.

Let's wait and see how much the Israelis want to keep and see which way Bibi jumps.

Haaretz is reporting that the offer is too good to refuse - and yet the Israelis still choose to make the US wait and wait.. :shock:
Obama is essentially spotlighting a debate that has been going on since the settlements began - namely, whether they contribute to or undermine Israel's security. The U.S. president is now asking: What benefits Israeli security more - a few more trailers on some hilltops or doubling the number of advanced fighters in its inventory?

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/mess-repor ... e-1.324687

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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 15, 2010
The U.S. president is now asking: What benefits Israeli security more - a few more trailers on some hilltops or doubling the number of advanced fighters in its inventory?


If thats the question its a very hard one. Considering Israels experience after retreating from South Lebanon and Gaza, I would say "some trailers on hilltops" are more beneficial to Israels security. If its about defending itself against agression from neighboring countries I would say advanced fighters.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 16, 2010
I'm just reassured that not all Israelis believe that the trailers on Palestinian land are worth more than the military equipment being offered - and for once, I can't disagree with the Israeli military source who said:

"The Americans have put forth an excellent proposal. It will be a big mistake not to take it," a senior defense source told Haaretz last night, adding that "the prime minister has made impressive gains. If we do not implement this deal, we will suffer in terms of defense."


But it is fascinating that holding on to territory won in a war in 1967 can cloud even this basic common sense.

And let's not forget that UN resolution 242 onwards (and International Court decisions on points of law) all say that acquiring territory by war is illegal. Trailers on Palestinian hilltops are therefore illegal - as they are trying to acquire the land won in a war (for Israel).

I guess ideologically, some do view this violation of a clear principle of law as something that is more precious than fighter planes and Israel's overall security.

But as I say, I'm reassured that not all Israelis share this extreme view.

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Shafique
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 17, 2010
I'm genuinely surprised that the Israelis are still holding out and haven't taken up the US's generous offer.

Now they are denying there is any tension between the two governments! :shock:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.325069

That's a classic 'the owners have full confidence in the manager' speech in football! :)


According to the Economist, the deal is super-tasty for the Israelis:

Under this new deal, Israel will agree to a 90-day re-freeze in return for a generous package of military and diplomatic goodies from America. These include an additional 20 F-35 stealth fighters, worth $3 billion, to be added at America's expense to the original 20 ordered by Israel. America has pledged, too, to stiffen its backing for Israel at the United Nations and to work for tougher international economic sanctions against Iran.


'at America's expense' - note.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook ... ettlements

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Shafique
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 21, 2010
More from the Economist - this is from an article on 18 November:

Two states or one?

Everyone understands, says a senior Israeli minister, that this is the core issue behind the row over the freeze. When ministerial hawks such as Benny Begin (who belongs to Mr Netanyahu’s Likud party) or Avigdor Lieberman, the foreign minister who leads the far-right Yisrael Beitenu, oppose a new freeze, in truth they resist the idea of the two-state deal that may ensue.

When Mr Netanyahu tries to make his coalition partners agree to a freeze by using imprecise wording, he wants to defer the day when this fundamental ideological conflict in his cabinet is laid bare, between pragmatists who are reconciled to an independent Palestine and the ideologues who still want a Greater Israel. He also means to defer the day when he must himself decide which camp he belongs to.

http://www.economist.com/node/17526060

The clock is ticking for Bibi.. he has to come out and announce 'which camp he belongs to'.

But the amazing thing is that the $3billion freebie bribe is still being 'considered' !!

And I'm reassured, I'm not the only who thinks this is crazee, this from Haaretz on the craziness of the bribe:

The list of defense-related and other gifts the U.S. administration is willing to offer to Israel in exchange for three months of construction freeze in the settlements raises suspicions that someone has gone mad. An additional extension of the freeze, which he has previously rejected out of hand, may spell a political and ideological headache for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu—but the offer by U.S. President Barack Obama is very enticing. The addition of 20 F-35s to the package discussed two months ago tips the balance very clearly. From Israel's point of view, it is an offer that cannot be refused.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... e-1.324687

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Shafique
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 21, 2010
The majority of Palestinains still donot see a two-state solution as an end solution to the conflict, but only see as a stage for the destruction of Israel:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/poll-most-palestinians-see-two-state-solution-as-precursor-to-single-state-1.325793

Poll: Most Palestinians see two-state solution as precursor to single state

Almost two-thirds of Palestinians (59 percent in the West Bank and 63 percent in Gaza‏) support the two-state solution ‏(Israel and Palestine‏) but eventually hope that one state − Palestine − will prevail, according to a survey by pollster Stanley Greenberg for The Israel Project.


Thats also why Abbas is running around with maps of "Palestine" including todays Israel. There is certainly something to say for it that Palestinians donot want a state, but the destruction of Israel. The real obstacle for peace are the camps. As long as Israeli cities within the green line are also called settlements, settlements are not the real underlying issue.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 21, 2010
FD - What has this 'belief' about Palestinians have to do with the $3 billion bribe that the US is offering the Israelis?

Perhaps you are mistaken on this point (that it is relevant to subject of the bribe) as well as your previous belief in this thread that the bribe of planes had to be paid for (when in fact the bribe consists of extra planes for free)? Just asking.

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Shafique
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Re: Bribe to stop building! Nov 23, 2010
It looks a lot like Fisk is reading Dubai Forums :)

From last weekend's Independent:

Robert Fisk: An American bribe that stinks of appeasement
Saturday, 20 November 2010

In any other country, the current American bribe to Israel, and the latter's reluctance to accept it, in return for even a temporary end to the theft of somebody else's property would be regarded as preposterous. Three billion dollars' worth of fighter bombers in return for a temporary freeze in West Bank colonisation for a mere 90 days? Not including East Jerusalem – so goodbye to the last chance of the east of the holy city for a Palestinian capital – and, if Benjamin Netanyahu so wishes, a rip-roaring continuation of settlement on Arab land. In the ordinary sane world in which we think we live, there is only one word for Barack Obama's offer: appeasement. Usually, our lords and masters use that word with disdain and disgust.

Anyone who panders to injustice by one people against another people is called an appeaser. Anyone who prefers peace at any price, let alone a $3bn bribe to the guilty party – is an appeaser. Anyone who will not risk the consequences of standing up for international morality against territorial greed is an appeaser. Those of us who did not want to invade Afghanistan were condemned as appeasers. Those of us who did not want to invade Iraq were vilified as appeasers. Yet that is precisely what Obama has done in his pathetic, unbelievable effort to plead with Netanyahu for just 90 days of submission to international law. Obama is an appeaser.

..
Three billion dollars for three months is one billion dollars a month to stop Israel's colonisation. That's half a billion dollars a fortnight. That's $500m a week. That's $71,428,571 a day, or $2,976,190 an hour, or $49,603 a minute. And as well as this pot of gold, Washington will continue to veto any resolutions critical of Israel in the UN and prevent "Palestine" from declaring itself a state. It's worth invading anyone to get that much cash to stage a military withdrawal, let alone the gracious gesture of not building more illegal colonies for only 90 days while furiously continuing illegal construction in Jerusalem at the same time.
..

..
In the three months of "good behaviour", of course, the Palestinians will have to bite the bullet and sit down to "peace" talks which will decide the future borders of Israel and "Palestine". But since Israel controls 62 per cent of the West Bank this leaves Fayyad and his chums about 10.9 per cent of mandate Palestine to argue about.

And at the cost of $827 a second, they'd better do some quick grovelling. They will. We should all hang our heads in shame. But we won't. It's not about people. It's about presentation. It's not about justice. It's about "security". And cash. Lots of it. Goodbye Palestine.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 39101.html

:shock:
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 26, 2010
While I would love to see the issues sorted I don't see much coming out of this apart from another drawn out stalemate. I hope to god I am wrong but I don't think even US pressure will lead to both sides agreeing on the border as both sides feel they have a claim to the land.
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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 26, 2010
Joe - fortunately we have recourse to International Law and the UN to resolve who legally has a right to control the land that was captured in 1967 by Israel.

The Palestinians have shown willingness to compromise and not demand everything that UN resolutions and International Law say they are entitled to - Israel has not made any (that's zilch, nada, zero) concessions according to UN resolutions and laws in the peace process so far. They've only grudgingly made some partial implementations of what the UN says they should do.

But I'm still surprised that this bribe saga continues! You'd have thought $3billion worth of fighter planes for free in exchange for 90 days of partial stoppage of building would be snapped up!

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Re: Bribe To Stop Building! Nov 26, 2010
shafique wrote:Joe - fortunately we have recourse to International Law and the UN to resolve who legally has a right to control the land that was captured in 1967 by Israel.


Yes, Israel is legally controlling Judea and Samaria.
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