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Too bad you can't agree that niqab and burka were never intended to be Islamic or religious forms of dress and the Quran does not support women wearing such clothing to bring a woman closer to Allah. It is a misuse of religion that has women walking around under sheets for no good reason and yet it is supported by many Muslims.

'No good reason' is dismissing the reasons the women gave for choosing to wear a veil, whilst knowing it is not an Islamic requirement.

Nuns in wimples pretty much covered their bodies to the same extent as a burqa wearer, and yet the Bible does not say that they should. Many nuns to this day still cover their heads. They seem to have a 'good reason' for dressing in that way.

The minority of Muslim women that choose to then cover their nose and mouth - they have their reasons too.

I don't support any coercion of women to wear the veil, but I don't support criminalising the veil either.

Cheers,

Shafique

Get over it K !

Shaf, I've seen you condemn other misuses of Islam, but I see the burqa and niqab are the exception.

I said a few times that I support the women who choose to wear the veil despite it not being an Islamic obligation. I don't believe they are being hoodwinked or that Islam is being misused. Above all I do not share your logic that this piece of cloth is anti feminist etc. I take the women at their word.

Being pro choice sometimes means supporting choices that are legitimate but ones you may not wish to follow yourself.

I feel that I have said this many times before.

Cheers
Shafique

You talk some good PR Shaf.

I listen to the women who make their case well. They take all the credit.

Cheers,

Shafique

Let me know when one of those women can show the passage in the Quran that says a woman is more virtuous and closer to god when she wears a piece of clothing that only allows her eyes to be visible.

Why would the women contradict themselves when they clearly state they know it is not an Islamic requirement to wear the veil, but a voluntary decision they have taken? You're not making much sense kanelli. The horse is dead.

You really need to make a better case for the criminalising of the choice to cover one's nose and mouth in public.

Cheers,
Shafique

How do they know they will be viewed as more virtous and closer to god? Did they just pull those notions out of a hat?

They admit that it isn't a requirement for all Muslim women, but they seem to believe that the truly virtuous and pious women wear the niqab and burka and that is why they choose to wear it. Fellow Muslims seem to agree and hold veiled women as the pinnacle of virtue and piety amonst Muslim women. And the Quran supports none of it.

Has Eh hacked into your account K ? Because you're starting to troll now and make no sense ?

I think I might have mentioned it earlier somewhere not sure, so I will repeat it. Although not an obligation men and women like to follow in the footsteps or try their best to emulate that they most revere, love and hold high. For the Muslims it happens to be the Prophet ( p.b.u.h ) and his the women of family.

Just like some Christians try to do with Jesus Christ, in some extreme cases even getting crucified ! Now why the hell does that bug you so much ?

kanelli wrote:How do they know they will be viewed as more virtous and closer to god?

They say they feel closer to God by wearing the veil. I take them at their word that they feel this when they wear the veil.

I don't agree with your implication that they feel this way because some man told them to feel this.

I didn't read any of the women saying that other Muslim women should make the same choice they made - on the contrary, they said they knew it was voluntary. Again, I fear you seem to be generalising and projecting views that don't apply in the cases and example presented of women explaining why they have chosen to cover their faces in public.

The case for criminalising them for this choice seems to be non-existent - sorry.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote:How do they know they will be viewed as more virtous and closer to god? Did they just pull those notions out of a hat?

I don't agree with it since they can't perform hajj with a veil or burka. But from religious pov they are wrong, but they are entitled to their opinion. I'm against their reasoning, but I don't push it on them. Apparently you claiming to take women side, yet still going against these women. This is interesting.

Nucleus, let's take an example. If your daughter told you she wanted to walk around in a tank top and mini-skirt in Dubai because it is her right to dress how she pleases, would you support her choice, or would you push her to dress more conservatively? Some men here claim to be on women's side about choice, but when it comes down to it they would never accept their own wives or daughters dressing in a "revealing" way.

If people tried to walk around naked because they said it made them feel closer to god, I guess everyone should respect that choice and not be biased against them for their choice of undress.

^kanelli, surely the question you should be asking Nucleus would be whether he would want to criminalise all the women who choose to dress scantily in public - or dress in ways he considers immodest - or (more to the point) to dress in ways that in his opinion reinforces the objectification of women etc.

No one is saying you are wrong to personally dislike the veil and to hold the view that it is a symbol of oppression etc. For me, I am disagreeing with you that :

1. it is a choice that should be criminalised
2. it is a choice that gives women no personal benefits, despite not being an Islamic obligation
3. for the women who choose to wear a veil, it does more harm than good for them.

I +do+ think that there is a case for women to be given the information and freedom to choose whether to dress in ways which some people may think are objectifying women, or in ways that others may think are oppressing women. If they make choices we may personally disagree with - then that is a sign of tolerance that we don't insist we know better and criminalise their choices.

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli wrote: If your daughter told you she wanted to walk around in a tank top and mini-skirt in Dubai because it is her right to dress how she pleases, would you support her choice, or would you push her to dress more conservatively?

If she is grown up it would be her choice. Would you do the same if your daughter choose to wear burka?

shafique wrote:If they make choices we may personally disagree with - then that is a sign of tolerance that we don't insist we know better and criminalise their choices.

Exactly!

When checking the local amber alerts, I noticed it's difficult to distinguish between Muslim girls/women. This isn't very helpful.

^Amber alerts are for missing children.

What is it about Muslim girls you find difficult to tell them apart? Are you living in a fantasy world where you imagine little girls wear veils?

Cheers,

Shafique

Amber alert is for children below 18, and yes many Muslim girls in there wear a scarf to cover their head.

Are the Muslim girls in the Amber alert photos wearing veils or just head scarves?

Perhaps if you give us the links to the photos that are confusing you we can see what you are talking about. As we saw in the other thread - you do seem to be easily confused:
dubai-politics-talk/islamophobic-desecration-dead-body-t52363.html#p418233


Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, you keep insisting on the criminalizing part when I have said I don't actively seek a ban. I could care less if there was a ban or not - I oppose the veil whether it is legally permitted or not. I think the same could be said for people walking around naked and saying it makes them closer to god. There would be many people challenging that, except in cultures where people are similarly undressed.

I wouldn't want my daughter to wear skimpy clothes or a burka and I'd definitely try to persuade her to wear clothing that doesn't show all of her body or cover all of her body including her face. Ultimately it would be her choice in the end, but it still wouldn't stop me from attempting to persuade her with logic and facts about how she'll be perceived and the statement she makes when wearing certain kinds of dress. The same goes for my boys. Even though men are allowed to go shirtless on the street, it is still inappropriate and women are not allowed to do the same. Unless it is the pool or beach, my boys should be keeping their shirts on in public.

kanelli wrote:I think the same could be said for people walking around naked and saying it makes them closer to god.

There are some religions that have that in their religious rites like that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyclad_(Neopaganism)

Yes, but if a small number of those people wanted to walk around naked in Dubai or any Western city for that matter, they would be challenged. There would be calls for bans, and people would not want to accommodate their form of "religious freedom" because it conflicts with values in the dominant society.

kanelli wrote:Shaf, you keep insisting on the criminalizing part when I have said I don't actively seek a ban. I could care less if there was a ban or not - I oppose the veil whether it is legally permitted or not.

Apologies, I thought you were advocating/in support of a ban. Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick on that.

As you are not, then I don't really have an issue with your view then - you personally don't like the veil and have expressed well the reasons why you think women should not wear a veil.

I just happen to disagree with some of your reasons for disliking the veil. I happen to think that women should be free to choose to wear a veil, and shouldn't be coerced into wearing one or be under any illusions that it is a requirement in Islam etc.

Cheers,

Shafique

kanelli wrote:Yes, but if a small number of those people wanted to walk around naked in Dubai or any Western city for that matter, they would be challenged. There would be calls for bans, and people would not want to accommodate their form of "religious freedom" because it conflicts with values in the dominant society.

Yes but they it is done here differently. You don't see people going around saying women are being oppressed into nudity by men, etc... It is against the norms here, end of the story. We know some women can choose to be nude, not our cup of tea but it is there choice, they can do it in a country that is nudity friendly but not here if they want to do this in public.

Now in the west, govt wants ban burka or veil, they can, it is their country -- end of the story. There won't be much argument that way.

If women are being told by the Imam or those in their society that they have to shroud under loose sheets of cloth (face showing or not), while the men walk around in t-shirts and shorts, that is oppression because it is an unfair double-standard. The burden is on the women to dress in a certain way or her virtue is questioned. Similarly, I think women are being oppressed by big business which tries to sell products with se.x and show female bodies off far more often than male bodies. Young people are being over-se.xualized. It is just as silly for women to feel liberated by wearing a sheet with their eyes peeking out as it is for women to feel liberated by teetering in 6 inch heels and hiding their backsides with their purses when wearing a mini-skirt and attempting to get out of a car or go up an escalator. Who should be judging someone's virtue, and why is the emphasis always on the woman's virtue? Both men and women display their virtue by their actions, not how they dress. Each to their own opinion though, and each to their own dress...

kanelli wrote:If women are being told by the Imam or those in their society that they have to shroud under loose sheets of cloth (face showing or not), while the men walk around in t-shirts and shorts, that is oppression because it is an unfair double-standard. The burden is on the women to dress in a certain way or her virtue is questioned. Similarly, I think women are being oppressed by big business which tries to sell products with se.x and show female bodies off far more often than male bodies. Young people are being over-se.xualized. It is just as silly for women to feel liberated by wearing a sheet with their eyes peeking out as it is for women to feel liberated by teetering in 6 inch heels and hiding their backsides with their purses when wearing a mini-skirt and attempting to get out of a car or go up an escalator. Who should be judging someone's virtue, and why is the emphasis always on the woman's virtue? Both men and women display their virtue by their actions, not how they dress. Each to their own opinion though, and each to their own dress...

Again you are mixing different issues, we are talking about religious freedom which I believe is based on Burka in west vs somebody going around naked for religious reasons, where in both cases people choose either extremes by their own liking.

If you want to discuss that make another topic pls.

kanelli wrote:If women are being told by the Imam or those in their society that they have to shroud under loose sheets of cloth (face showing or not), while the men walk around in t-shirts and shorts, that is oppression because it is an unfair double-standard.

In the examples given, the women have made the choices themselves and aren't relying on what men are telling them. The women also explain why they are making the choice and what benefit they are deriving from this choice.

The crucial point is that women should be allowed to make the choice.

Whether men (or women) approve and make judgements on virtue of the wearers (of high heels, mini skirts or burkas) is a different matter, IMO. In all cases the onlookers are free to make their opinions known, and the women should be free to choose how they dress.

Cheers,

Shafique

Nucleus, all of the last part of discussion is off-topic from the origina Obama topic and should belong in a separate thread. None of my comments were off-topic in this off-topic part . In fact, the discussion was not limited to religious freedom or not, since some people still can't agree whether the niqab and burka are cultural or religious forms of dress.

kanelli wrote:In fact, the discussion was not limited to religious freedom or not, since some people still can't agree whether the niqab and burka are cultural or religious forms of dress.

Some posters have consistenly quoted women who choose to wear the veil and are clear that it is not a requirement of Islam. No confusion at all from this perspective - as it was never down to 'religious freedom' but just 'freedom for women to choose' what to wear.

Cheers,

Shafique