Fanboys - Look Away

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Fanboys - look away Aug 31, 2009
The resident pro-Israeli regime fanboys won't be happy with this excellent article from Haaretz:

Let me highlight just one paragraph (but please read the whole article):

A country that constantly demands boycott from the world and also imposes boycotts itself, cannot play the victim when the same weapon is turned against it. If the election of Hamas is cause for boycott, then occupation is a far more potent cause. The fact that Israel is living a lie - pretending that the occupation does not exist, that it is just, temporary and unavoidable - does not make the struggle against it any less legitimate. So let us admit the truth: The occupier deserves to be boycotted. As long as the Israelis pay no price for the occupation, the occupation will not end, and therefore the only way open to the opponents of the occupation is to take concrete means that will make the Israelis understand that the injustice they are perpetrating comes with a price tag.


It relates to the an Israeli academic making a call for a boycott of Israel as the next logical step. Another article in Haaretz dealing with this subject is here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1110417.html


The full article from which the quote was taken is here:
The last refuge

By Gideon Levy

The timing of the mini-maelstrom over an opinion piece in the Los Angeles Times by Neve Gordon, who teaches politics and government at Be'er Sheva's Ben-Gurion University, calling for a boycott of Israel, was somewhat grotesque. Hardly have the throats dried of those calling for his dismissal, for his citizenship to be revoked, for his expulsion and, if all else fails, his stoning, when another petition has surfaced on the Internet, this one calling for a boycott of Ikea. A bad article on the back page of a Swedish tabloid is enough to produce a call here for a consumer boycott to which thousands sign their names. Turkey has barely recovered from the boycott that our package tourers imposed on it because its prime minister had the gall to attack our president, and already we are cruising toward our next boycott target. It's our right.

It's a safe bet that most of the boycotters of Antalya and Ikea are the same people who want to tar-and-feather the Israeli professor who dared promulgate the use of the very same civic weapon. According to the Israelis who railed against Gordon, the imposition of a boycott is a legitimate, perhaps even effective, means of punishment that can be invoked against our enemies, real or imagined. Gordon, an Israeli patriot who served in the Paratroops and is raising his two children here, thinks that a 42-year-long criminal occupation should generate at least as much international protest as an article in a Swedish newspaper, and that this protest can and should be translated into concrete measures. The Israelis think that one scurrilous article is enough to warrant punishing everything Swedish, and that one comment by a prime minister is enough to do the same to everything Turkish. Gordon thinks the occupation is a sufficiently important motive to boycott everything Israeli.

Since the time of the ban imposed in the Jewish community by Rabbeinu Gershom at the turn of the first millennium, which applies to offenses of considerably less severity than mistreating 3.5 million people - namely, marrying more than one woman, divorcing a woman without her consent and reading private correspondence without the owner's consent - the boycott has been a just and appropriate civil weapon. And since the boycott of the apartheid regime in South Africa, the boycott has also been an effective weapon. Israel is demanding its invocation against Iran, America wants it imposed against North Korea and both of them are demanding it against the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip, and worse, against all the residents of Gaza. Israel, and with it most of the international community, imposed a boycott on 1.5 million Gazans only because they did not vote for the right party in the democratic elections that the international community demanded.

A country that constantly demands boycott from the world and also imposes boycotts itself, cannot play the victim when the same weapon is turned against it. If the election of Hamas is cause for boycott, then occupation is a far more potent cause. The fact that Israel is living a lie - pretending that the occupation does not exist, that it is just, temporary and unavoidable - does not make the struggle against it any less legitimate. So let us admit the truth: The occupier deserves to be boycotted. As long as the Israelis pay no price for the occupation, the occupation will not end, and therefore the only way open to the opponents of the occupation is to take concrete means that will make the Israelis understand that the injustice they are perpetrating comes with a price tag.

Anyone who champions the struggle against the occupation is no less of a patriot than a soldier who shoots a bound Palestinian or a settler who plunders land and builds his house on it, in defiance of every law. They are giving Israel a far worse name than a lecturer who calls for a struggle against the occupation - just ask Israel's critics. It is precisely the Gordons, those who fight from within, who are repairing slightly the horrific damage that has been done to Israel's image in the past few years. They are proving to the world that despite everything Israel is not monolithic, that not all Israelis speak with the same voice, that not all Israelis are Liebermans or Kahanists, and that maybe Israel is, after all, a type of democracy with freedom of expression, at least for its Jewish citizens.

Gordon went one step further. Boycott is the next logical step, he believes, because all else has failed. Forty-two years of fruitless fighting from within and an occupation that is only growing stronger, dictate stepping up the struggle. We tried demonstrations but the masses did not come; we tried conferences but they led nowhere. All that's left is to give in, to go on with the routine of our lives, like all the Israelis, to shut our eyes and hope for the best - or to intensify the struggle, in conjunction with the intensification of the occupation. The Israeli soldiers who shoot at civilian demonstrators in Bil'in or Na'alin, almost like in Iran, are perpetrating a far more illegitimate act against the state's rule of law than those calling for an international boycott. But no one will urge the revocation of their citizenship.

Gordon chose not to follow the herd, unlike most of his cowardly colleagues or the nationalists. It is one's right to think that an Israeli who does not boycott Israel does not have the right to call on others to take that step, or that the call for an external boycott is the last option of Israeli patriots who do not want to abandon the country or throw up their hands. There is, however, no place for the vicious attacks on Gordon. The height of ludicrousness was achieved by the President of Ben-Gurion University, Prof. Rivka Carmi. She was appalled by the article published by a member of her faculty, fearing it could affect the university's donations from American Jews. Here, then, is a new criterion for good citizenship and morality: the harm it wreaks to our schnorring. It's also a new gauge for academic and civic freedom of expression: If something miffs the donors from Beverly Hills or Miami Beach, then we must not speak it aloud. Quiet - people donating.

The reactions from official Israel, and from the street, have lately become more irritable and more aggressive. An article in a Swedish paper or in an American paper, a report by Breaking the Silence or Human Rights Watch, whatever does not conform to the official right-wing, militaristic, nationalist line, is reviled, delegitimized and subjected to an outpouring of hate. This is an encouraging sign. Only when Israel, at both the official and the popular level, begins to understand that something went awry here, that something is morally rotten, that maybe protest, documentation and exposure are justified, then what remains is the last weapon in the hands of the defenders, the weapon of unrestrained attack on the protesters and the documenters.

If Israel were sure it is right, it would not be so frightened and be so aggressive against everyone who objects to its official line. If we were convinced that the soldiers of Breaking the Silence are making up stories and that Gordon's call for a boycott and his description of Israel as an apartheid state are unjust, we would not be so abusive toward them. Not only Religious Services Minister Yaakov Margi, from Shas, but also Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar, who expressed "disgust," and Science and Technology Minister Daniel Hershkowitz, who called for Gordon's dismissal - two ministers who are supposed to be in charge of imparting education and values - were in the forefront of the assault against Gordon. It is not just a question of basic intolerance for different and even subversive opinions, whose expression is a fundamental value in every democracy. It is also a manifestation of edginess and aggressiveness that prove what Gordon and others like him want so much to show in Israel and abroad: that something very basic and very deep is flawed in the third kingdom of Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1110514.html

shafique
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Aug 31, 2009
Thank you for that.

This is called the right of expression and freedom of speech as exercised in countries that have evolved beyond either dictatorial feudal regimes or mob rule.

Good for Gideon Levy that he both realises the issues faced by Israel and has a medium for communication of those issues that could either spur at worst debate and at best actual change.

Can you say the same for any of the Gulf countries ?
viking-warrior
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Aug 31, 2009
Viking - I totally agree that the Israeli voices against the injustices are in stark contrast to the situation in the Gulf generally.

As Levy says above
It is precisely the Gordons, those who fight from within, who are repairing slightly the horrific damage that has been done to Israel's image in the past few years. They are proving to the world that despite everything Israel is not monolithic, that not all Israelis speak with the same voice, that not all Israelis are Liebermans or Kahanists, and that maybe Israel is, after all, a type of democracy with freedom of expression, at least for its Jewish citizens.



Levy's article is an island of sanity and common sense in the (mini)tempest of opposition that Gordon's article has provoked.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Aug 31, 2009
It's unfortunate that Israel is taking a leaf from Hamas' playbook.
freefromrats
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Aug 31, 2009
viking-warrior wrote:Thank you for that.

This is called the right of expression and freedom of speech as exercised in countries that have evolved beyond either dictatorial feudal regimes or mob rule.

Good for Gideon Levy that he both realises the issues faced by Israel and has a medium for communication of those issues that could either spur at worst debate and at best actual change.

Can you say the same for any of the Gulf countries ?


it is killing you that there is nothing here that needs the use of freedom of speech huh ? the majorty is fine here, so move on.
uaekid
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Aug 31, 2009
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090831/NATIONAL/908319988/1010

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090831/NATIONAL/708309855/1001

Political discussion is forbidden in your country, if it were not then the topics listed above, drawn from 30 secs of browsing one newspaper would be openly discussed. The mere fact that one newspaper prints some "Oooh, edgy" news hardly compares to the serious dissertation that appears in the original post by Mr. Levy.

Care to discuss the border dispute with Saudi or the Iranian Islands, or political prisoners?

And lets be honest if your appearance on here is in some way meant as a serious representation of the debating abilties of the indigenous population then as a collective your are in trouble.

Nothing in the UAE needs "freedom of speech" fantastic, truly the observation of a blind man in a dark room looking for a piece of black tape. Not even your superiors think that - dummy.

Go to google and look up Dr. Mohammed Al Roken, get someone to explain it all to you, then come back.
viking-warrior
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Aug 31, 2009
When you close your eyes, what do you hear ?

Inadequate, inadequate, inadequate ......

Please please come back with some thing a bit better, my mum says I should stop as it is getting technically close to child abuse ..... :lol: @u
viking-warrior
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Aug 31, 2009
A left, a right, another right....he's down! Can he get back up again this time....? :D

Poor kids brings a knife to the gunfight everytime. It must be hard to fight his corner, but he keeps on showing up :)
Speedhump
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Aug 31, 2009
For the first time in my life I know what bullies got out of it at school! And the danger is - its addictive !!

But as much fun as hunting goldfish with a 240V power supply is, I can't for the life of me understand the tunnel vision. I love Britain, but I know its flaws, the abject proverty that exists, the teenage knife fights, immigration etc etc etc and I deal with it.

More than anything I want to see those Nissan Patrol driving nutters wake up and acknowledge "everythings not ok" as that is the start of putting it right. Its a scary thought but "kid" could just be a future business leader or a member of the national council .............. :lol: and if he takes away one little wound that reminds him of just one thing that we say, then thats a move in the right direction (?)

The day an local reporter writes an article like the original post, inwardly directed, I will raise a glass

:lol::lol::lol: Dreamin'
viking-warrior
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Sep 01, 2009
viking-warrior wrote:http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090831/NATIONAL/908319988/1010

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090831/NATIONAL/708309855/1001

Political discussion is forbidden in your country, if it were not then the topics listed above, drawn from 30 secs of browsing one newspaper would be openly discussed. The mere fact that one newspaper prints some "Oooh, edgy" news hardly compares to the serious dissertation that appears in the original post by Mr. Levy.

Care to discuss the border dispute with Saudi or the Iranian Islands, or political prisoners?

And lets be honest if your appearance on here is in some way meant as a serious representation of the debating abilties of the indigenous population then as a collective your are in trouble.

Nothing in the UAE needs "freedom of speech" fantastic, truly the observation of a blind man in a dark room looking for a piece of black tape. Not even your superiors think that - dummy.

Go to google and look up Dr. Mohammed Al Roken, get someone to explain it all to you, then come back.



oook well you provided one link with labors protesting in uncivilized way when there are tens of official harmless channels to go throw "in a civilized societies and the officials are looking into it . way would you discuses it when it will be solved the right way ? please do show me a better civilized, freedom democratic country that labors don't strike annually and I'll call it the Heaven State :D

the second link is the shortage of water in the gulf !!!

yes I do care to discuses the border dispute with Saudi or the Iranian Islands .. lead the way viking-warrior even though I don't see what is your concern since you are not a citizen of either countries and what's this issue has to do with the freedom of speech. oh yaa and the political pensioners of course :lol:

I’ll be happy to learn one or 2 things from experts.
but lets base our discussions on facts rather than your personal thoughts :roll:
uaekid
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Sep 01, 2009
So someone is "looking into it" - who is this someone, when can we expect to hear the result of his / her analysis?

Democratic - please go look it up www.dictionary.com, does not apply

I had completely forgotten about the political pensioners - i thnk we need to start a separate thread on them, blood sucking dregs of society !!! :lol:

:lol: Please go look up the term QED (quod erat demonstrandum) and what it means and refer back to what I said earlier about an educated response

Look why don't we just go back to something that you can deal with

- Yo mamma so fat even light bends around her ...... "

and then you respond;

- Yo mamma so fat .........

and so on and so forth
viking-warrior
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Sep 01, 2009
I think kid - wanna be startin somethin :wink:
viking-warrior
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Sep 01, 2009
LOL and I thought you want to discuess and not direct me to look here and there ? well when'll have a brain of your own come and talk to the big boys . no time for such childish games.

but hey thats a good way of getting out of it,boy,you are something.

bye bye
uaekid
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Sep 01, 2009
And thats how you check out! OOooooh I feel so violated.

How is it that you set such low targets and consistently fail to achieve them? Maybe its just a language thing, but if you do not understand or comprehend a statement or a question or even a word, what are you doing on here, you are making yourself look more than a little silly!
viking-warrior
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Sep 01, 2009
I like a good fight - and whilst I tend to favour underdogs, I think I'll put my money on my countryman on this one (sorry kid, when you're in a hole it's usually best to stop digging). ;)

I see that one fanboy couldn't resist looking - and is either trying to be funny or is saying that Hamas has academics who speak out against its excesses. I suspect it is the former ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Sep 01, 2009
There is nothing that needs digging shafique, he asked if I care to discuss cretin points and I agreed, he backed up and no where to be found :)

still waiting, I might learn 1 or 2 things from him that I don't know and for the rest to gain more knowledge also or is he scared to be a political prisoner LOL

I got to call him a chicken until he do so LOL
uaekid
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Sep 01, 2009
You will never make me your Political Pensioner, have you done your homework yet ? Clicked on the links provided and learnt a little latin ?

Nope, I guess not; standing proud on a pedastal of ignorance and now shouting about it

:lol: you really crack me up !
viking-warrior
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Sep 01, 2009
Ok - kid

Topic - Freedom of Speech and the Human Rights record of the UAE.

I feel that the UAE has stiffled its own peoples right to representation by perverting the traditional Diwan system into an autocratic dictatorship run by the few for the benefit of the few.

In regard to this subject I cite the arrest and detention of Dr. Al Roken on 3 separate occasions when he spoke openly about the abuse of human rights of his own people in his own country at the hands of their own "government".

and your response is ... ?
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Sep 02, 2009
Now that you know sarcasm wont take you any where lets do this.

It’s good to know it is just your feeling . you seem to know a lot of our culture and its system so you should now that the Diwan is an important part our culture and it’s main purpose is to meet with your president and make him lesion to your need basically and provide it. This is not only here but in ever bedwian society . we believe in them taking care of us and I guess it is showing clearly what they have done for us compared to other countries that fights and protest for their needs. I agree that it is a one man call but how do you describe it a dictatorship when it’s only doing good ?
it is a great way of exercising our right of speech not in a public park but right there face to face with our leaders, you should see it one day and see how simple it is between us and them. If your country has a different system of its citizen interaction with its government ,it doesn’t mean that our traditional way is wrong.

regarding Dr. Al Roken , and you judging a country system based on one case,
in my personal opinion I think when he wants to do so then he should do it in his won country where it belongs originally !! I know of many cases in UAE where ppl like him emerged and it ended up creating so called Terrorist groups training in farms to fight some where. His speeches were not directs to UAE as we all now but the country feels it will cause trouble eventually and that’s way it had to stop after a couple of warning to him not to do so.. this country is peaceful and it’s GOV tend to keep it this way and push a way all kind of elements that may cause a threat to its safety and its ppl and relation with other countries. You have to understand that UAE is located in a conflict area and I guess it is clear and knowing to everyone what is happening in the neighbored countries.
uaekid
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Sep 02, 2009
Ignoring the condescendence for a moment

When Sheikh Rashid ruled - the diwan was both (a) accessible & (b) the actual council that governed, decisions may have come in his name - but were made by him and the leaders of all tribes clans & groups of the surrounding areas, you no doubt know that word Sheikh refers to the wise elder, that has now been transmuted to mean leader, but has diluted the original meaning and given rise to the saying "today even the dog of a Sheikh is a Sheikh". This method of leadership has gone, in Dubai at least. The voice of the local people is lost in the noise of the internet and as such they do not have a say in what, when, how or why things are done.

Instead you have a select group of 6 or 7 senior advisors who all have conflicts of interest guiding all the issues that reach the executive office. And thereafter one person making decisions. That is a dictatorship, albeit, one that at this point in time is benign. How can you say that it is all good ? Do you have sight of the results of some or all of these decisions. In case you had not guessed I work in finance. In fact I worked for the Dubai government, in finance. And in over 50% of decisions taken - had they been taken by a CEO in any country other than the UAE, the CEO would have been booted out a long time ago.

Running a country is not about personal ego, its not about having a government business build a $500m dollar floating shag palace. The worlds tallest building oi vey, the worlds best free education system or finest social medical system or a legal system that could act as a global center based on its integrity - now that would have been impressive.

Your national identity is being remolded and hand crafted by Walt Disney imagineers and in another generation you will have to visit a theme tent in DubaiLand to see how the Emirati's of old "used" to live. Thats not progress its a joke, at your expense.

My point is not that your traditional way is wrong, it is that your traditional way has been left behind, and no one seems to have noticed or appears to give a damn, they are too busy grabbing $$$. By the time the next generation realise that all the power sits in one man, it will be too late.

Let me ask you, how many young emiratis see Politics as a future career ? None, because politics is a function of a system that allocates power responsibility and accountability to its people. Sitting on a Federal Council that has all the power of a rubber doll does not count.

There are a great number of disaffected locals, in the army, in crappy jobs and in the jails who do not feel as you do, did you know that ?

I will deal with Dr Roken once you have digested this lot, but safe to say - he is not alone and not an isolated case and has absolutely nothing to do with desert camps training would be terrorists - thats low, very low.
viking-warrior
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Sep 02, 2009
Ok now you are confused between the Diwan and an emarite executive council , the diwan is more more of a personal office and citizens affairs office to the shack and does not interfere with strategic planning. So I guess you are talking about the executive council. But before we proceed let me remind you that what you pointed now has nothing to do with the freedom of speech we are suppose to discuss !! never mind it.

Of course members of any organization wont be perfect and gives 100% all the time, thats why there are the so called hiring and Sacked !! and I'm shocked that you didn't give them a credit for planning what Dubai became and focused in areas they failed in as you clam ! now that’s not fare ,or is it?

You clamming locals has no say in what,where and when is not true at all,why and what would they complain about in regard of the country development when it's for its and their own good, we feel proud where ever we go to say we are a citizen of UAE.

Show me what our government did that we did not approve of and the country proceeded regardless about it. We and our government can't help it our identity being remodeled, it is natural since the country population is made mostly of foreigners but you calling other cultures in the country (Walt Disney ) it's just criticizing other culture of being funny I guess including your won !!) … we want to keep up with the crowd and we certainly can't ask foreigners to adapt our cultures or living style,it is a free world.isn't it ?

So lets say the locals want to say something about it, what would you expect them to ask for ? kick the foreigners out or stop the development and lets stay in our tents !! I can't really see how you relate all of this the freedom of speech. moving on …

Yes I do know the locals you are pointing out,the ones in the army , crappy jobs and jailed ,my young brother is one of them sadly , they brought it on them selves by not getting educated enough and preferred the army for quick spending cash and were lazy most of their life's doing nothing but driving around all day and woke up one day to find everything "too late" what do you propose we do with them drop outs and what do they have to do with our subject ? give them the power of speech to say what? give us money and let us stay home? I'm not following !

The only thing I digested is you being influenced by stereotypes or a bad seed local I guess .I have one who doesn't leave the bar LOL

If locals are not happy and if they don't have the power to speak ,they will use the internet to do so and god know how they love using it but feel free to brows them, non has anything of what you think, sure they have their won complains of unemployment and other manageable issues like anywhere in the world but not to the extent you are trying to present. I'm sorry man ,but you are living in another world way way into your imagination .
uaekid
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Sep 02, 2009
kid - what viking wrote in his last post is very insightful and thought out. From my observance of life and politics in Dubai, I have to say that I have a lot of sympathy for his view and believe it could be accurate.

The doubt I have about the accuracy only stems from the lack of transparency in the politcal system - and I suspect it may be worse than presented.

As a citizen of the UAE you should be proud of your country and its achievements, and proud of your leaders. However, this pride should not blind you to the faults (and you are right, I can't think of a political leadership/government who is without fault).

This thread was about people in Israel speaking out against the government there and stating obvious truths that are supported by facts - and the Israeli regime and its supporters rubbishing the academic, calling names, saying it was unpatriotic etc.

The contrast is well made - that if a person/academic were to criticise the government here in similar terms, the reactions here would be very harsh. More telling is that currently, I don't thing they would be given a hearing and would be drowned out by people saying they are just stirring trouble, don't understand etc etc.


Let me give you one example that I was afraid to ask too loudly when I was in Dubai - do you think that the majority of Emiratis are in favour of the very close links with the US military - eg having a large naval base in Jebel Ali and pretty much an agreement to allow the US to use the UAE as a staging post, or transit whenever it wants? (Eg. The US will land supplies on the East coast - Fujairah IIRC - and transport it by land to the West of UAE - if the straits of Hormuz are blocked for any reason).

Was this aspect of foreign policy ever discussed, or have even the broad extent of the details/agreements been made public?

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
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Sep 02, 2009
Interesting chat guys, I actually understand and can honestly say I see validity in both sides to some extent. I won't interfere at the moment!
Speedhump
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Sep 02, 2009
shafique wrote:kid - what viking wrote in his last post is very insightful and thought out. From my observance of life and politics in Dubai, I have to say that I have a lot of sympathy for his view and believe it could be accurate.

The doubt I have about the accuracy only stems from the lack of transparency in the politcal system - and I suspect it may be worse than presented.

As a citizen of the UAE you should be proud of your country and its achievements, and proud of your leaders. However, this pride should not blind you to the faults (and you are right, I can't think of a political leadership/government who is without fault).

This thread was about people in Israel speaking out against the government there and stating obvious truths that are supported by facts - and the Israeli regime and its supporters rubbishing the academic, calling names, saying it was unpatriotic etc.

The contrast is well made - that if a person/academic were to criticise the government here in similar terms, the reactions here would be very harsh. More telling is that currently, I don't thing they would be given a hearing and would be drowned out by people saying they are just stirring trouble, don't understand etc etc.


Let me give you one example that I was afraid to ask too loudly when I was in Dubai - do you think that the majority of Emiratis are in favour of the very close links with the US military - eg having a large naval base in Jebel Ali and pretty much an agreement to allow the US to use the UAE as a staging post, or transit whenever it wants? (Eg. The US will land supplies on the East coast - Fujairah IIRC - and transport it by land to the West of UAE - if the straits of Hormuz are blocked for any reason).

Was this aspect of foreign policy ever discussed, or have even the broad extent of the details/agreements been made public?

Cheers,
Shafique


I can't speak for everyone in what they approve of or not but it is knowing not it's citizen but to the world that UAE is always trying to please all side and always balance things when it comes to politics, even with their enemies or conflict with it's neighbors.. taking the majority opinion in politics does not always mean a good result ! how ? well lets take for example that funny video in the general chat
it shows that there is a % of people (citizen) who have no clue what is going on around them, now are those the ppl you want to base your foreigner affairs relations and reputation thoughts ? of course not other wise we will be in war or isolated from the rest of the world, why? bcz viewer lean to make their calls based on on feeling rather than facts ,interest and punching numbers. now during the last 5 years the middle east and the west had many conflicts including religious ones and ppl are effected by it and by the US policy so if asked they will not approve of any relation with the US what so ever not only army bases and on th other hand there are more ties to consider like economically but they wont understand that bcz they are now emotionally driven ,you see where I'm going with this...and the same will apply on every country that participated in this war !!

yes a country should take it's citizen opinion on many issues but in UAE case it's almost all provided the way anyone dreams of, so why fight it when it's there ?

in other part of the world there are corrupted Governments that take and don't give or has civil and internal states conflicts or those countries that has many parties and each want to be the one but here it is a hall diff case, wealth is managed in a good way and provides more than the basics for the citizen, god blessed this country with good ppl leading it, why change it now to an uncertain future ?
look at KSA or Kuwait , one of the richest countries and got all kind of political party and voting system, but what is it doing for them ? as fare as I know they are terribly managing the country wealth and citizen needs.


here we have a one would call a more soft harmless criticizing ways used in local T.V series witch sends a massage to the target needed and the radio stations were you are giving the chance to complains about any government official or department and they the radio station calls them on air and discuses the issue in hand, it is a popular radio program , now if you want to know the locals real problems then set with an Arabic speaking person and let him translate to you whats is being discussed, it’s funny when they start asking some big shot questions ,man do they panic LOL you should lesion to it it is daily from 10 -1 I guess called ( albath almubasher ) no cuts no editing all on air.

I’m shocked that you guys have been here for a long time and didn’t get a chance to speak to locals and see how they feel about it, I would say 90% would feel the same way as I do at then end the locals are the one to say the last word in this subject and not any one else.
uaekid
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Sep 02, 2009
You've addressed the issues quite eloquently UAEkid, although you did stumble on the freedom bit. Ur analogy is quite simple, the government here provides for it's citizens and that's all that matters. And around the world not too many other governments can compete on those grounds.

So far one could say that the UAE has had a glorious past, but what about the future UAEkid? How do you see the system panning out let's say 10-15 yrs from now?

Over to Viking, he can afford to throw caution into the wind and speak his heart out.
Misery Called Life
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Sep 02, 2009
uaekid wrote:here we have a one would call a more soft harmless criticizing ways used in local T.V series witch sends a massage to the target needed and the radio stations were you are giving the chance to complains about any government official or department and they the radio station calls them on air and discuses the issue in hand, it is a popular radio program , now if you want to know the locals real problems then set with an Arabic speaking person and let him translate to you whats is being discussed, it’s funny when they start asking some big shot questions ,man do they panic LOL you should lesion to it it is daily from 10 -1 I guess called ( albath almubasher ) no cuts no editing all on air.

I’m shocked that you guys have been here for a long time and didn’t get a chance to speak to locals and see how they feel about it, I would say 90% would feel the same way as I do at then end the locals are the one to say the last word in this subject and not any one else.


I think this is the real point. Nationals don't feel the need to take a direct hand in running the country, they still feel that it is in good hands, while their bins get emptied every day and there are enough government jobs for them, and expats to do the real work. An analogy: how many Russians now wish for the return of the Socialist state, which was thrown over because they looked jealously at the freedoms of the West? Many.

Here things move very slowly, by degrees, it's just the way. Asking for a social upheaval is just pissing in the wind. OK, I read viking-warrior's point that people are lining their pockets here now (or until the recent crash), I don't have 20 years of experience here to judge, but that anyway wasn't only Nationals, eh?

I'm not taking sides, as I think you all have valid points in your arguments, cultural difference being what makes it impossible to reconcile the two views. Corruption has always and will always exist, here and elsewhere; I think it's the amount of good stuff that goes on at the same time that shoud be the consideration.:)
Speedhump
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Sep 02, 2009
This is an interesting discussion.

I fully empathise with Uaekid's views - the shortcomings of the UAE administration are recognised, but generally it is felt they have the interests of citizens at heart and are doing well by them. The issues with foreign policy etc sound like 'realpolitik'- i.e. we may not like it, but this is the price we need to pay - and it is better that the man in the street do not know the details - because they will have an emotional reaction and may perhaps, say, object to the close ties with the US.

The UAE citizens who feel otherwise and want to voice their opposition to certain policies - just have to work within the system, it appears.

Therefore, it does not appear to me that there is much difference in the substance - more in the interpretation. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) all are saying that dissension and free speech in the UAE are not as high/free as in Israel or the West (I only mention Israel, as this is where this thread began). What I understand kid to be saying is that this fact is accepted and we must factor in the culture of Emiratis and consider the historical forms of government/decision making.


There are aspects I may not agree with, but I hope I have understood kid's argument. But at the end fo the day, it is for Emiratis to decide how they wish to be governed - my armchair observation is that too many countries in the region is that there is no reliable mechanism to ensure that a populations' wish becomes reality - rather it is luck that rulers who are in power are good. Historically, the rulers tend to have been the ones who were either installed by outsiders or (as today) those who bow their heads to their suzerainity.

But perhaps that is the price to pay - look at what happens to anyone who tries to strike an independent course. Gaddafi tried it and then learnt his lesson. The last Shah's father would not play ball and was replaced. Ahmadinejad keeps insisting on selling oil for Euros (and never getting round to actually doing it), and the last person who actually did sell oil for Euros was Saddam Hussein! ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Sep 02, 2009
That's how I see it. Viking-warrior's point I think is that UAE had an omnipotent but benificent ruler in Shk. Zayed, but he doesnt feel the same way about Shk. Mohammed's governance. But I guess it is for Emiratis like kid to judge, not us expats. I believe that a country that looks after its own people is a fine country to be born in, I wish mine were a bit more strong-minded like that.
Speedhump
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Sep 02, 2009
In the interest of not getting off the point and before talking about freedom of speech or human rights, let me address your first point

Ok now you are confused between the Diwan and an emarite executive council , the diwan is more more of a personal office and citizens affairs office to the shack and does not interfere with strategic planning. So I guess you are talking about the executive council.

My point is and was, and now reinforced by you, that the Diwan has become an Emirati version of the Citizen's Advice Bureau - whereas in the past it was a powerful body in its own right, one where the people had a voice and used it, sometimes quite amusingly to the detriment of the leaders - but no offense was taken and decisions went on to accomodate the peoples concerns. This option does now not exist.

Expanding this point leads one to the observation that whilst the system of democratically elected governments is not perfect, they are accountable to the electorate and from time to time the electorate has the opportunity to replace them (Good bye Mr. Brown !) based on unpopular or unsuccessful policies. Today whilst your leaders are still making popular decisions you are happy to go along with the herd, but what if tomorrow "they" decide to impose an income tax, or ban women from the workplace or something that is not by and large generally popular (my personal view is that the introduction of a Singaporean style tax on cars would be fun to watch!!) - Where do you go ? Diwan, the Courts, the Municipality ? You will have no voice.

Shaf make the point that if there is something that you do not like you have to work from within the system to effect change, but therein lies the problem - their is NO system, so people (and I refer to Emiratis here) will start to whisper amongst themselves 'this needs to happen etc etc' and that is classed as political dissent.

All which leads on to a discussion about freedom of speech and freedom of the press (essentially the same thing).
viking-warrior
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Sep 02, 2009
Not AWOL - damn work interfering with my private life !! :)
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