When The Moors Ruled In Europe

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When the Moors ruled in Europe May 31, 2010
I watched this documentary from 2005 recently.

I was pleased to see this is available in full on-line:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/when-moors-ruled-europe/

Recommended.

Cheers,
Shafique

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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 02, 2010
Oh Noooo...
The correct answer is the 'Moops'
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
I guess we could argue we now have 'Muppets' in charge ;)

I missed the history lesson about the Moops though. :)
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 03, 2010
An interesting butchery of history.

Pagan learning was widely studied in Christendom, whether it be Origen of Alexandria, Augustine or Justin Martyr, Christians had recorded and added on to the philosophical insights of the Greeks.

Even the term the 'dark' ages is no longer used by historians these days.
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
Ah, eh returns with his authoritative views on the history of Europe!

I thought you were avoiding the religion forum now that you've run out of excuses for not answering questions about your views on the bible etc? ;)

But seriously, what specific part of the documentary was a 'butchery of history'?


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Shafique
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
shafique wrote:I missed the history lesson about the Moops though. :)


I always thought that you might be a bubble boy.
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
^Ahh, the penny drops - sorry, a bit obscure for me - whilst I enjoyed Seinfeld, I guess my recollection isn't as encyclopaedic as yours! ;)

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Shafique
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 03, 2010
No, we can only have one historian on this forum who mistakenly believes a Bible passage from the epistle of James is a quote from Jesus or who gets his Bible verses from Muslim missionary sites.

As for a quick review, including naming some of the historical accuracies in the documentary, here is what I read on another forum I visit now and again:

Overall, I thought it was very good, though spoiled by gratuitious Catholic-bashing at every opportunity. They put on sinister choirs whenever a church or crucifix came on screen, with lots of doom-laden sequences of penitents carrying crosses whilst portentous commentary spoke of "the march of barbaric Christian hordes" into "civilised, rational, progressive" Islamic Spain. There were times I almost burst out laughing at the sheer ridiculousness of the voiceovers. And there were all the usual tropes of the "Conflict Thesis", including the closure of the Academy by Justinian, the suppression of reason by the Church in Europe which only survived in the middle east, etc, etc, ad nauseam. The shocking thing was, it actually lessened the impact of the really horrific stuff like the Inquisition and ethnic cleansing of the Moors because it was clear that the documentary had set out to condemn the Christian side from the beginning. I'm no fan of repressive medieval religion, but this was just butchery of history.

The tragic thing is that otherwise I thought the program was a very valuable and necessary counterblast to prevailing stereotypes about Muslim civilisation. It's just a tragedy that in doing so they just ended up perpetuating an equally fallacious and damaging set of myths about medieval Europe.


and

To set up a cartoon golden age of islam in the middle ages contrasted to a cartoon evil and repressive society of christians only begs the question of what happened to the golden age...and make people feel cheated when they realize that the truth, of course, is more complex and more grey than black and white. It is quite possible to find contemporary muslims with attitudes that blend well with the mindset of a modern western public. One does not need to create fictional medieval ones.


and

Nor to forget that the population of Iberia continued to be Hispano-Romano-Gothic. Small wonder that classic Greco-Roman culture continued to survive there even after the Umayyads took over. (In contrast to North Africa, where the Vandal state acted like, well, Vandals.) The collapse of Cordova into a multitude of quarreling chiefdoms, with muslim and Christian states warring in various combinations -- even El Cid fought for a muslim city state for a while -- led eventually to the arrival of the puritans of al-Murabit. These spent most of their effort purifying the Arab and Berber chiefdoms of infidel influences - like "Greek studies". And the al-Muwayidun were shi'ites out to purify the sunnis. The Spaniards didn't really have that much to do but pick up the pieces.


But you get the picture...I think.
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 03, 2010
Interesting.

I said 'Recommended' and asked what specifically you thought 'butchered' history in the documentary. It appears that you didn't actually watch it, but rather are quoting an un-named reviewer from another un-named site. Hmm.

Anyway, let's see what this other reviewer is saying... (who knows, perhaps I will agree with him) ;)



Overall, I thought it was very good,



Well, I agree with him on this point - I recommended the doc, after all.

though spoiled by gratuitious Catholic-bashing at every opportunity.


Ok, I'll have to watch it again and pay attention to the sound track and the 'catholic bashing'.

.. whilst portentous commentary spoke of "the march of barbaric Christian hordes" into "civilised, rational, progressive" Islamic Spain.


Well, if what she was describing was true - then the descriptions is apt. Wasn't Spain 'civilised, rational and progressive'?

And there were all the usual tropes of the "Conflict Thesis", including the closure of the Academy by Justinian, the suppression of reason by the Church in Europe which only survived in the middle east, etc, etc, ad nauseam.


Ahh - but who is saying these are 'tropes'

The shocking thing was, it actually lessened the impact of the really horrific stuff like the Inquisition and ethnic cleansing of the Moors


Note he doesn't say that the horrific stuff didn't happen - only that the impact was lessened by the 'tropes' above.

The tragic thing is that otherwise I thought the program was a very valuable and necessary counterblast to prevailing stereotypes about Muslim civilisation.


Valuable and Necessary - prevailing stereotypes. I'd agree with this.

It's just a tragedy that in doing so they just ended up perpetuating an equally fallacious and damaging set of myths about medieval Europe.


Interesting - it would be good to see which fallacies Ms Hughes perpetuated.



Nor to forget that the population of Iberia continued to be Hispano-Romano-Gothic. Small wonder that classic Greco-Roman culture continued to survive there even after the Umayyads took over. (In contrast to North Africa, where the Vandal state acted like, well, Vandals.) The collapse of Cordova into a multitude of quarreling chiefdoms, with muslim and Christian states warring in various combinations -- even El Cid fought for a muslim city state for a while -- led eventually to the arrival of the puritans of al-Murabit. These spent most of their effort purifying the Arab and Berber chiefdoms of infidel influences - like "Greek studies". And the al-Muwayidun were shi'ites out to purify the sunnis. The Spaniards didn't really have that much to do but pick up the pieces.


Huh - this seems to be describing what was in the documentary. Am I missing something here (ooh, but to know that you'd have to watch it)??

But you get the picture...I think.


Yes, the guy says it was a good documentary and overturned stereotypes of Muslim Spain, but he thinks it goes over-board in the Christian bashing.

Thanks for the paste.

Care to post the link to the site?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 03, 2010
I did a quick search and found the comment you posted above. Here it is in full:

When the Moors Ruled in Europe
Post by perplexedseeker on May 10, 2010, 9:58am

I don't know if anyone else from the UK managed to see the recent documentary on the Moorish presence in Spain that was on Channel 4 last week?

Overall, I thought it was very good, though spoiled by gratuitious Catholic-bashing at every opportunity. They put on sinister choirs whenever a church or crucifix came on screen, with lots of doom-laden sequences of penitents carrying crosses whilst portentous commentary spoke of "the march of barbaric Christian hordes" into "civilised, rational, progressive" Islamic Spain. There were times I almost burst out laughing at the sheer ridiculousness of the voiceovers. And there were all the usual tropes of the "Conflict Thesis", including the closure of the Academy by Justinian, the suppression of reason by the Church in Europe which only survived in the middle east, etc, etc, ad nauseam. The shocking thing was, it actually lessened the impact of the really horrific stuff like the Inquisition and ethnic cleansing of the Moors because it was clear that the documentary had set out to condemn the Christian side from the beginning. I'm no fan of repressive medieval religion, but this was just butchery of history.

The tragic thing is that otherwise I thought the program was a very valuable and necessary counterblast to prevailing stereotypes about Muslim civilisation. It's just a tragedy that in doing so they just ended up perpetuating an equally fallacious and damaging set of myths about medieval Europe.

For example, I learnt that some researchers are now saying that the Muslim conquest of Spain may have been less of a war and more of a long, slow process of raiding, colonisation, trade, integration and assimilation that was never directed overall by a central Islamic power (the Caliphate back in Arabia seems to have had little to do with the invasions, which were often carried out by independent tribes of Muslim nomads).

At the other end of the Moorish kingdom's history, they also made a compelling case that the famous "Reconquista" of Spain by Catholic crusaders is actually a later fiction produced in the centuries following the wars. It was suggested that a more accurate representation (backed up by archaeological evidence) of the Reconquista is one of the Muslim kingdoms of Al-Andalus auto-destructing through repeated and ruinous civil wars that crippled the infrastructure and created a power vacuum into which the northern Catholic kingdoms were to some extent sucked. Indeed right up till the end there were apparently many Muslims and Christians fighting on both sides, either for profit or reasons of personal loyalty. There's apparently even some evidence that people who are now venerated as Spanish national heroes on Ferdinand and Isabella's side may actually have been Muslims from North Africa.

There was also some interesting stuff about the collaboration between Christian and Muslim scholars in the university of Toledo in the 10th century to get authoritative Latin translations of Aristotle made and exported to European universities.

Did anyone else see this? I think that it's still available on the UK's channel 4 "on demand" online service.


http://jameshannam.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=history&action=print&thread=612

(The bit I highlighted in red above is an aspect that was new to me as well.)
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
shafique wrote:^Ahh, the penny drops - sorry, a bit obscure for me - whilst I enjoyed Seinfeld, I guess my recollection isn't as encyclopaedic as yours! ;)

:D :D :D
Hey, I would never had heard of the Moors if it weren't for Seinfield.

Sorry, can't comment too much on the doco because I havn't seen it, but its just another case of the winner writing the history books.
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
I read once that superman was in every episode of Seinfeld - not sure if that's an urban legend or not?

(BTW - what's interesting about this doc is that it goes behind the history that was written by the victors! ;) )
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 03, 2010
Yawn - the conflict thesis along with the other myths the author was talking about were mentioned throughout the mockumentary that I saw, but were mentioned rather explicitly around the twenty minute mark.

As I said, historians no longer use the term 'dark ages' for a reason. That the historian claimed that Pagan learning was eradicated in the Christian world and it was only through outsiders that Europe could progress says to me that the historian was laboring under anti-Christian Enlightenment beliefs.

But hey, here is the link to the other site: http://jameshannam.proboards.com/index. ... thread=612

Perhaps you should register and share your pearls of wisdom to the members of that board, oh learned one?
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 03, 2010
Yeah, I tracked down the posting - see my post above.

I see that your being selective now quotes from posters called 'perplexedseeker' now too - and ignoring the fact that the guy you quoted actually said the documentary was good and overturned some stereotypes of Muslims/Islam - funny that. Do you agree with him on this point?

Yeah, I will take up your invitation of registering and sharing my views. I see there is a healthy debate going about whether Jesus was crucified or not, and quite a few about myths.

I'll ask them whether they can help you out with the question about the Bible and the sun staying in the sky for a whole day (perhaps they'll help you out and put you out of your misery in your folorn search for a scientific explanation)?

But hey, when you get your History degree and produce your own books and documentaries, let me know - us Brits love new comedies. :)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 03, 2010
Re 'Dark Ages' - at around 21min.

Bethany Hughes says 'it was the start of what later Christian scholars would call the Dark Ages'. Pretty precise and accurate, and describes a specific time.

Also the reference to Justinian closing down the Athenian schools of philosophy - that's accurate too (and she cites this as an example only).

At 19min Hughes is saying that Greek knowledge was concentrated in Alexandria, Muslims conquered this part of the world in 641CE and then showed texts that were taken to Fez of Aristotle with annotations by Averoes (done in Spain). So, pretty much factual and verifiable. The commentaries and annotations are well discussed in other historical treatments (doing away with the oriental view that the Arabs merely transmitted Greek knowledge and nothing more.)

At 20min she contrasts the Muslim embrace of all knowledge with 'Northern European' Christian suspicion of Greek pagan texts and says initially that these had 'all been but ignored for centuries' in Europe (i.e. not completely ignored, but almost completely). Again factual. The odd monastery translating Greek texts into Latin, notwithstanding - the historical record shows that it was from the Arabic translations (with commentaries) that the works of Aristotle etc made it to the West (in fact the Universities of the West were modelled on Islamic institutions - which explains why Oxbridge dons wear similar gowns to those worn in Qom in Iran - strangely enough).

Anyway, thanks for pinpointing a part of the documentary (around 20 min mark) which I re-watched. I couldn't recognise the issues you are 'pontificating' about, but if you have any more specific criticisms or inaccuracies you'd like me to dispel, please let me know where in the documentary it is (but I suggest you quote her verbatim to avoid embarrassment ;) )

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Shafique
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 04, 2010
Bethany should bone up on modern history more often. Historians of today no longer use the term dark age, in part, because it is simply historically inaccurate.

Also the reference to Justinian closing down the Athenian schools of philosophy - that's accurate too (and she cites this as an example only).


Did she mention that the school was closed down at times by the Romans when emperors were still Pagans? Too bad she didn't mention that Pagans were still employed by Justinian after the closure. The closing of the school only affected the people who taught and were students there. It was not a universal decree as she implies.
Pretty precise and accurate, and describes a specific time.


And what period would that be? Who was affected, etc, etc?

Aristotle and the majority of Greek works were already preserved and translated to Aramaic/Syriac by Christians before and after the Islamic conquests. And yes, there was of course annotations to Aristotle et al by Christian thinkers during the period and after. What is accurate to say, is that Muslims piggy-backed on the works of Christian translators.

At 20min she contrasts the Muslim embrace of all knowledge with 'Northern European' Christian suspicion of Greek pagan texts and says initially that these had 'all been but ignored for centuries' in Europe (i.e. not completely ignored, but almost completely). Again factual.


So you claim. The research I've read shows differently.
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 04, 2010
I've done a bit more reading on the guy who runs the forum - James Hannam. Given his views, its hardly surprising that the small community on his site also share his view about the Medieval period. However, it is strange that you quote a reviewer that praises the documentary for overturning misconceptions about Muslims/Islam in Spain, whilst Hannam's claim to (small) fame is that he's challenging historical views about Christian Europe.

As I said, Hughes was accurate and precise when she used the term Dark Ages in the documentary - not a lie, not a disputed fact. I suggest you re-read her exact words which I typed out.

It appears you enjoy to tilt at windmills and build strawmen and go around trouserless.. ;)

Hannam is also apparently challenging historical accounts (by Europeans) of the middle/later middle ages - from around the 11th century. There seems pretty much no challenge to the achievements of Islamic Spain, Baghdad etc in terms of all the achievements listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_co ... #Education


You make some weird claims in your post above, however Hughes IS a historian, has evidence and even showed us in the documentary the proof of her claims. The Aristotle translation with commentary by Averoes was shown to you - and the route of transfer from Greek texts in Alexandria to Fez to Spain is explicit and unassailable - your isolated examples of isolated monasteries carrying out translations into Latin just lead into intellectual cul-de-sacs, and only represent isolated works compared to the body of material in Arabic that was then translated into Latin.

But hey, it's always good to hear alternative views - some of my views are iconoclastic as well.

At least I agree with the reviewer you quoted that the treatment of the Islamic parts of the documentary overturn previous wrong stereotypes and, like the reviewer, recommend the documentary.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 04, 2010
As I said, Hughes was accurate and precise when she used the term Dark Ages in the documentary - not a lie, not a disputed fact. I suggest you re-read her exact words which I typed out.


I suggest you do more reading before you embarrass yourself any further.


You make some weird claims in your post above, however Hughes IS a historian


So is Hughe Kennedy when you embarrassed yourself and claimed that he was wrong to say that non-Muslims payed more in taxes than Muslims did.

But really, is that supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

The only facts Hughes offered were a selected presentation of facts, as mentioned by the other posters I pasted here - the 'trope' about the conflict thesis, school in Athens being closed down, learning being non-existent, etc etc.

The latter could be shown that your historian was clearly misinformed.

But hey, you can show that I am badly mistaken on something I had said - beyond merely saying that what I wrote was unusual.

Oh, and btw, what period are you claiming the dark ages to have taken place? We can ignore that the term 'dark ages' is no longer used by historians today in part because of historians' previous beliefs are no longer regarded as accurate concerning the medieval period.

I'll give you more time to google.
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 04, 2010
event horizon wrote:
As I said, Hughes was accurate and precise when she used the term Dark Ages in the documentary - not a lie, not a disputed fact. I suggest you re-read her exact words which I typed out.


I suggest you do more reading before you embarrass yourself any further.


You didn't follow my advice and read/check what she actually said, did you?
;)


Hey, let me be fair to you. Perhaps this time you are right.

Can you give me some exact quotes, or time references in the documentary, where Ms Hughes says something that is factually incorrect or even where what she says is misleading (which is a bit more subjective).

I've looked at the commentary between 18 and 22min and as I stated above, I couldn't find anything there that was not a historical fact.

Can't be fairer than that.

I just want to check that you're not going all psycho on her because she doesn't portray Mooslims as you imagine them to be. As the reviewer you quoted says, she is only overturning some wrong stereotypes - perhaps that is what is causing your bile to rise?

Anyway, give us some specific quotes/references and let's see whether your 'impressions' are based on what is actually said/shown and not based on some imagined slight to your view of orientalist mooslims.

cheers,
Shafique
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Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe Jun 04, 2010
While the subject is around the Moors chaps..Have you actually seen or had a virtual tour of the Alhambra palace and it's splendid work of fine art in geometrical and floural patterns engraved on marbles with the beauty of arabic/quranic texts embroidering.. Very sophisticated, absolutely fasinating and I don't know or think if there is anything as such anywhere around the world?..

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/2 ... efault.htm
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Re: When The Moors Ruled In Europe Jun 08, 2010
Impressive virtual tour Berrin -thanks for the link.

The documentary shows how there's a lot of maths behind the proportions in the buildings, and makes the point that under Muslim rule the place was draped with silks etc - and would have been even more impressive.

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Shafique
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