Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

The words of the Quran speak in 19:64, saying, "We come down in accordance with the commandments of your Lord. To Him belongs the past, present, and the future. Your Lord never forgets." God did not forget, for example, to tell us how to sleep (18:109, 31:27). Yet, the fabricators of such false doctrine as Hadith & Sunna have come up with religious teachings dictating to their followers how to sleep, and even how to cut your nails.

http://www.quran.org/quran/index.html

http://www.quran.org/

In this work, I have outlined the reasons, which lead to the conclusion that the true Sunnah (or way) of the Messenger of Islam is to follow the Book, known as al-Qur’an (The Recitation/Proclamation). Part of this book is designed to respond to the main arguments posed by some Muslims for following other books in addition to the Qur'an for religious guidance. The main reason the majority of Muslims today insist on following other books is the age old human sickness of leaving the revealed Book of Allah “behind their backs”, and blindly following the teachings of their ancestors.

http://www.quran.org/mosque/index.html


I would like to ask about this PATH outlined above as it is how I view Islam.
I am not a Muslim (yet) because I refuse the 'last prophet' thing as well as the form of Sunnah practiced widely .

What do you folks think about Qur'an; The Only Sunnah

RON,

Quran.org is a website of the so-called 'submitters' group who follow the teachings of a claimant of prophethood called Rashid Khalifa.

He maintains that the Quran was ammended and 2 verses were added to the Quran. I have the translation of the Quran he made.

He initially came up with a 'code' for the Quran made up of multiples of the number 19. He used computers for this .. and as with the Bible code, fitted the code to the results after he found the patterns he was looking for.

Initially the results were feted in the muslim world (this was in the 1980s) - but then it was discovered that there was an error in one of the results and that the whole pattern invalidated. To get round this, he needed to remove some verses to make the code work.. and this alienated himself from all muslim scholars.

Then he went so far as to declare himself a prophet and that his interpretation of the Quran was correct. A cornerstone of his teachings was that the Quran was it and that we should ignore Sunnah and Hadith.

This falls down when the Quran is examined closely - in it, God clearly says that Muhammad, pbuh, was sent to bring the Quran AND to teach it. Therefore the sunnah and hadith do form an integral part of Islam.

Anyway - according to Islamic and Christian/Jewish scripture, false prophets are easily identified. Firstly their prophecies don't come true and secondly false prophets who declare revelations from God are killed and do not die naturally.

Rashid Khalifa was killed by stabbing one afternoon in Tuscon Arizona, the killer was never found or even seen.

There are very few 'submitters' around today - in the late 90's there was a spate of new prophets declaring their prophethoods based on their research - I used to debate with them extensively on the Compuserve Religion forums. They are largely discredited and no one pays too much attention to what they say.

Therefore, if you object to what you read at Quran.org - then you are not alone. If however you agree with what they are saying or subscribe to the beliefs/teachings of Rashid Khalifa, then you are following or agreeing with the teachings of a person who failed the test of a true prophet of God.

Take care.

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Thank You for the info Shafique

Actually, that particular website was just one which i selected but, this question has always burned inside of me regarding the Hadiths/Sunnahs.

So many things which seem redundant like the example given regarding sleeping, etc...

Just doesn't seem like something God would give as instruction.

If you will, let's disregard the originating authors website and discuss why the Hadiths are so important ~ equal in scope to the quran itself.

Hadith are like supplements. They are based on the Quran but are not from God.

Following the Quran will lead to heaven. The Hadith is like a plus of sorts...

I agree with Liban.. Islam does not give Hadith the same importance as the Quran.

The Quran is flawless, but does not cover every single question for every single specific instance. The Sunnah (practice of the Prophet) is second to the Quran - as it shows how to implement the Quran. Thirdly there is Hadith - but these are not 100% reliable due to people's memories and also fabrications.

Any hadith or reported sunnah that contradicts the Quran is discarded as a probable fabrication or mis-report. The compilers of Hadith and accounts of sunnah were meticulous in recording everything and only discarding those where they were absolutely sure they were fabrications. They however gave hadith the benefit of the doubt and chose to include contradictory hadith so that later generations could judge from the breadth of reports..

Take care.

Shafique

shafique wrote:I agree with Liban.. Islam does not give Hadith the same importance as the Quran.

The Quran is flawless, but does not cover every single question for every single specific instance. The Sunnah (practice of the Prophet) is second to the Quran - as it shows how to implement the Quran. Thirdly there is Hadith - but these are not 100% reliable due to people's memories and also fabrications.

Any hadith or reported sunnah that contradicts the Quran is discarded as a probable fabrication or mis-report. The compilers of Hadith and accounts of sunnah were meticulous in recording everything and only discarding those where they were absolutely sure they were fabrications. They however gave hadith the benefit of the doubt and chose to include contradictory hadith so that later generations could judge from the breadth of reports..

Take care.

Shafique

Pardon me for being such a butt-head but, ...
IF Any hadith or reported sunnah that contradicts the Quran is discarded YET, a hadith or sunnah exists which DOES NOT contain information from the Quran how can it be judged as contradicting the Quran ?

The Quran gives all the general principles and most of the specifics relating to how people should live their lives if they want to find complete peace and achieve the ultimate goal of being in communion with God (the arabic term is Nafse Mutmainnah = "the soul at rest", as is said: O soul at rest that has found comfort in God return to thy Lord, thou well pleased with Him and He well pleased with thee. Now join My chosen servants and enter into My garden (89:27-30) )

The Sunnah on how to perform the daily prayers is not in the Quran - the Quran says we should pray at certain times, but the Prophet had to explain the details of what postures, prayers etc constitute the daily prayers. etc.

The Quran says that the Messenger was sent to give the Quran to mankind AND also to teach it. The practical applications of the Quran are what constitute the sunnah and hadith.

Hope that answers your question.

Shafique

Good clarification Shafique and liban..

In Islam there is a complete science call the science of Hadith, as a part of this there is something called - latterly translating - ( the Science of wounding and modifying).

When the prophet Said, stated, or agreed on something the companion used to memories that, word to word, letter to letter and they tell it to each others which made something which called (the chain of Tellers).

in the Science of wounding and modifying they invistigate each teller by checking what kind of person he was; did he lie; had he ever made a crime; did he betray... etc.. if the chain is clean.. then the Hadith gets aproved.. if not.. they the invistigation keeps going so the hadith will be classified accordingly.

for the matter of fact, for the people who are deeply knowlegable in koran - and there r only few of them - they can tell which is the correct hadith by getting its source from the koran. each verse in koran could contain many many numbers of meanings.

the Authantic Hadith was gathered by: Bukhary and Muslim and some other people as well.

The koran has the science of everything and for everytime

Chapter 6, verse:38

[38] There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

I'm at work, didn't have the time to read the reply of the guys, but here are my quick views.

1) Quran is flawless, it is from God, it is the Main doctoriane of the islam. It is like the consitution.
2) Sunnah, it is as a supplement or clarification of the General rules from the Quran, so you can't use it only.

For example, the number, and the way of praying is not mentioned in the Quran, but it is in the Sunnah, but the Quran tell is it is a must for a muslim to pray.

For me it is like the Constitution, and sunna are the detailed rules. They can't contratict each other, and the detailed rules are not sufficient as the constitution is the basis.

Regards

If there is anything wrong with my opinion or facts, please help me correct it. Regards

OK, I think I'm beginning to understand.
Every Sunnah must have a counter-part contained within the Quran.
So, every Sunnah which has no basis to be found in the Quran can not be included?
Anything that is included can not contradict the Quran.

Forgive me but, if God gave the Quran to mankind and it is perfect, why then does it need to be explained ?

I would think that God would have forseen any difficulties for even the simplest minds and afforded clarity in his message so all may understand without aid.

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:OK, I think I'm beginning to understand.
Every Sunnah must have a counter-part contained within the Quran.
So, every Sunnah which has no basis to be found in the Quran can not be included?
Anything that is included can not contradict the Quran.

Forgive me but, if God gave the Quran to mankind and it is perfect, why then does it need to be explained ?

I would think that God would have forseen any difficulties for even the simplest minds and afforded clarity in his message so all may understand without aid.

The human mind is too pathetic to fully grasp God's message. Thats a simple one liner of why...

Liban wrote:

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:OK, I think I'm beginning to understand.
Every Sunnah must have a counter-part contained within the Quran.
So, every Sunnah which has no basis to be found in the Quran can not be included?
Anything that is included can not contradict the Quran.

Forgive me but, if God gave the Quran to mankind and it is perfect, why then does it need to be explained ?

I would think that God would have forseen any difficulties for even the simplest minds and afforded clarity in his message so all may understand without aid.

The human mind is too pathetic to fully grasp God's message. Thats a simple one liner of why...

Well, GOD did make that 'pathetic' mind did he not ?
Are you saying that God made man incomplete or incompetent?

I Do declare i'll not respond to OEM Post as he seems really ignorant and he only car to debate and he is not willing to learn or understand anything.



God help you, you are sick.

I'm not accusing you, as sickness can be cured. and it is a conclusion from your opinoin in the posts.

yshimy wrote:I Do declare i'll not respond to OEM Post as he seems really ignorant and he only car to debate and he is not willing to learn or understand anything.
God help you, you are sick.
I'm not accusing you, as sickness can be cured. and it is a conclusion from your opinoin in the posts.

How can I learn from one who claims: "The human mind is too pathetic to fully grasp God's message" ?

Richard,

Islam does indeed teach that we cannot fully comprehend God and even the afterlife - God tells us that we do not have the senses or 'bodies' to understand what the here-after will be like. And God will be even more remote than our existence in the after life.

It's like trying to explain the concept of colour to a blind person - you can only use analogies (red is a hot colour etc).

As God is not of this universe, but the Creator, then - logically - we cannot fully comprehend God.

This is actually a concept that is at the core of all revealed religions, not in any way unique to Islam.

Therefore, in answer to your question above, I would say you have everything to learn from a person who says we can't fully comprehend God

Cheers,
Shafique