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event horizon wrote:Unfortunately, the clear passages in the Koran are not metaphors - allah is very explicit when he says that non-believers sent to hell will be tortured in the most ghastly ways for all eternity.

I do agree with you that the passages describing 'hell' in the New Testament are metaphorical as another way to describe an existence completely cut off from God.

Going back to the teachings of hell in the Koran, it would seem that some view these passages as forgeries - given that the passages are clear and the torture promised to unbelievers, explicit, I can't see any other alternative.

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Punishment given for a sin is only to change the mind of the soul and purify it. There is no trace of revenge in this. The hell is an indication of the intensive love of God to the souls through which God wants to reform the souls. The hell indicates the hectic effort of God put on the soul to reform it and not to leave the soul for its fate. A father may leave his son since he is not changing inspite of all his efforts. But in the hell God puts serious effort and succeeds to change the soul. Therefore, even thousands of fathers cannot be equal to God. God is not leaving the soul without changing it and this point is indicated by the punishment and hell. Therefore, there is no point of excusing the Prarabhdas if this true basis is understood. God will try to change the soul through preaching as far as possible. Punishment in the hell is the last resort. Once the soul is reformed all the sins are smashed since there is neither the necessity of preaching nor the necessity of punishment.

Unfortunately, Islam teaches that the souls of unbeleivers sent to hell will be tortured for all time. I can't see any other alternative than to believe these clear and multiple passages are forgeries and should therefore be ignored.

The accounts of torture in the Koran are quite graphic, too. So, there is no indication that the torture these souls will experience will be any less severe than what the Koran indicates.

I can't see how God would torture souls for all eternity as a form of love. and since the torture of souls, in the Koran, is said to last forever, what reform could be said to take place?

Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

event horizon wrote:Unfortunately, Islam teaches that the souls of unbeleivers sent to hell will be tortured for all time. I can't see any other alternative than to believe these clear and multiple passages are forgeries and should therefore be ignored.

The accounts of torture in the Koran are quite graphic, too. So, there is no indication that the torture these souls will experience will be any less severe than what the Koran indicates.

I can't see how God would torture souls for all eternity as a form of love. and since the torture of souls, in the Koran, is said to last forever, what reform could be said to take place?

Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

The earth, hell and heaven come under the plane of materialism (Pravrutti) only. The punishment on the earth and the punishment in the hell differ just by the areas present in the same realm of Pravrutti. It is just the difference between a jail in India and a jail in Andaman Islands in the olden days. Therefore, the postponed sin along with the interest can be met with punishment in the hell or in the next birth. It is one and the same. The serious deeds good or bad will yield results in this birth it self (Atyutkataih Papa Punyaiah Ihaiva Phalamashnute..).

The place and time have no significance. Only the quality and quantity of the nature (good or bad) of a deed and its subsequent fruit destined by the constitution of God are important. As the postponement increases, the interest also increases. You will receive the principle along with the interest in any online branch of the divine bank existing on this earth or in the upper world. Actually the deeds are inert actions and do not follow the soul. Only the essence of the deed which is alive in the form of quality (Guna or Samskara) follows the soul and from the color and intensity of the quality, results are decided by the divine computer called Yama for bad deeds and Indra for good deeds.

Kalabhairava is the over all in-charge of super vision in implementing the results (Karanam Guna Samgosya…Gita). Sattvam is white, Rajas is red and Tamas is black. Therefore, the internal intention (Sankalpa) of the mind which is made of these three qualities decides good and bad of a deed and not the inert subsequent action. The cycle of deeds and its administration is simplified based on the specific quality and its quantity. This is the simplified picture of the system of deeds, which is followed by the judge in the final enquiry. Of course, the total network of deeds with all the minute details also exists inside the system, which can be referred if necessary (Gahana Karmanogatih…).

-- Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:11 am --

event horizon wrote:Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

Some people say that the Lord preaches with love and kindness in the world for transformation. If the soul is not transformed, the soul will be thrown to hell permanently at the end of this life. They say that the Lord should not punish the soul in this world. This is exactly similar to say that you should preach the student and if the student fails, he should be hanged to death permanently at the end of the period. You are not allowing punishing with cane during the period.

Therefore before the final punishment temporary punishment must be also given to the soul. Before the final examination interim examinations are also conducted. If the student fails in the interim examinations, there will be a chance for the student to correct himself before the final examination. Therefore interim punishments are part and parcel of the coaching before the final examination. The Lord adopts different procedures of coaching in different regions based on the psychology and attitude of the human beings. You should not criticize the procedure of the Lord which is different in some other religion and region.

-- Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:12 am --

event horizon wrote:I can't see how God would torture souls for all eternity as a form of love. and since the torture of souls, in the Koran, is said to last forever, what reform could be said to take place?

Do you agree with me that an eternal, brutal punishment is wrong and unjust, from a modern, humanistic POV?

Generally, one worships God through practical devotion (service) in order to avoid the negative results. Such attitude is a failure to achieve the real love and permanent grace of God. You must learn to enjoy the negative results also like hot dishes in the meal. In fact, due to the divine knowledge attained by the grace of God, try to find out more benefit in the negative result so that at least the negative result can be enjoyed equally with the positive result. Whenever, you start to do a work, you pray for the blessings of the Lord to get victory and benefit. The defeat and loss are never expected even in the mind. The elders always bless you to succeed and get the profit. They will never bless you to enjoy even the negative result, if attained.

They feel inauspicious even to utter the possibility of negative result even as the next alternative. But Lord Krishna says to Arjuna in Gita “If you die in the war you will enjoy the heavenly pleasures and if you win you will enjoy the pleasures on this earth” (Hatovaa Prapsyase Swargam …..Gita).

The Lord is giving blessings with the negative result in the beginning and the positive result is mentioned as the next alternative only. The Lord is showing more happiness in the negative result than the positive result because the heavenly pleasures are more superior to the pleasures on the earth. It is just like saying that if you are defeated in a work you will get a treat in the five star hotel and if you win you will get a treat in ordinary hotel. The Lord says that He is giving the analytical faculty to laugh at results of the deeds (Buddhyaa Yukto…..Gita).

The ignorant fellow may laugh at the statement of Krishna, but a scholar will laugh at the ignorance in analyzing the welfare in the positive and negative results. Actually the negative result giving you misery is for your welfare only to become near to God. The positive result is for your loss by which you are far from God. The punishment purifies you from all bad effects and the boon will pollute you with ego and ignorance. You must have faith in God that He is always doing everything for your welfare only. In such case, you are never upset in the life and hence there is no need of linking your devotion to the favor from God.

You are mistaking the favor of God as His anger and the anger of God as His favor. The divine knowledge, which is harsh to you, is always in your welfare and Satguru who gives such divine knowledge is the human form of God. Majority likes the sweet, which harms in long run and welcomes the knowledge preached by the preachers who are the human forms of Satan.

Generally, one worships God through practical devotion (service) in order to avoid the negative results.

So the ultimate motivator for worshiping allah and his prophet, Muhammad, is fear?

As a non-Muslim, that type of idea is very disturbing to me.

event horizon wrote:So the ultimate motivator for worshiping allah and his prophet, Muhammad, is fear?

Fear is what motivates people to adhere to a law or code, For example all the laws in the world would not exist if they were not "enforced" , the fear of violating a law is what makes that law a reality.

Anarchist views of existence , even though sounding noble is impractical. Even the application of DEMOCRACY is not FULLY APPLIED anywhere in the world.

Historically there were kingdoms and tribe leaders , all who were adhered to due to fear.

From a scientific point of view, Fear can be thought of as Negative Reinforcement and Reward as Positive Reinforcement. The result of this is termed as "conditioning" , We are all CONDITIONED to behave in a certain way and have the opinions of whatever. Both are practiced consciously or subconsciously in daily life.

Even as a child thats how you knew what was right or wrong.

event horizon wrote:

Generally, one worships God through practical devotion (service) in order to avoid the negative results.

So the ultimate motivator for worshiping allah and his prophet, Muhammad, is fear?

As a non-Muslim, that type of idea is very disturbing to me.

Faith developed through prayers & songs using superpowers of God for solutions will not stand forever because God will not answer always for the prayers, songs & crying with tears. People become addicted for such ways.

Child weeps every time for chocolate, which is habituated for that path. Child intensifies process of weeping if chocolate is delayed! Initially child is attracted by chocolates to go to school for some days. Child has become young person but did not cross first standard of school, because child concentrated only on art of weeping to get chocolates.

Person became postgraduate & even a Ph.D. degree holder in course of begging & weeping for chocolates. Person became exceptional scholar & developed several talents in praising Lord, crying for Lord, singing & music on Lord, meditation & concentration on Lord with mind, chanting name for millions of times, writing name of Lord for millions of times, chanting some letters (Beejaksharas or mantras), drawing some design diagrams on metallic plates (Yantras), doing worship following certain special ways of technology (Tantras) & so on. These discoveries and developments are tremendous & as many as developments in Science & Technology!

Ofcourse, all these are good psychological ways of solutions in treating certain psycho-patients with fixed notions to give mental relief of stress & confidence. All these ways are good, if person is without aspiration of any fruit from God in return. Such love is real. But real love is expressed in terms of sacrifice of work & sacrifice of fruit of work as seen in case of your love on your children. If such practical expression exists, all above theoretical expression of love through words & mind can be associated as plate of meals is associated with cup of drinking water.

-- Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:07 am --

zubber wrote:

event horizon wrote:.........ns of whatever. Both are practiced consciously or subconsciously in daily life.

Even as a child thats how you knew what was right or wrong.

The cause of fear is only the ignorance about God. The complete knowledge about God removes the fear completely. You can neither protect your self nor others. Any item of the creation cannot protect any other item of the creation. The reason is every item has production and destruction. Even the Lord in the human form has birth and death but has no fear. Jesus knows about His future crucification. He never feared about it before or during the crucification. He never feared for the soldiers who came to arrest Him. He never argued about His case in the court, because He knows that the crucification has to take place by the will of God. Therefore when you have the knowledge of God and the knowledge of His will, you will not fear even about the death.

The death proves that everything and everybody other than God gets destroyed. There fore Jesus asked the people to fear about themselves and about their children and not about His death. Lord Rama jumped into the river with smiling face, Lord Krishna was smiling while leaving His body. Sri Padavallabha and Sri Narasimha Saraswati merged in the Krishna river with smiles. Therefore one will not fear even for death if the divine knowledge is attained. Gita says that death is only changing the old shirt. Where the divine knowledge exists like sunlight, the fear vanishes like darkness. Even in the last statement of Jesus no trace of fear appears as He said that He is surrendering His soul to the hands of God. Veda says that the limited knowledge is cause of the fear (Atha Tasya Bhayam….).