KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn?

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KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 27, 2011
The Koran has a bit of a problem. In many verses, Allah calls on angels to bow (worship) before Adam and Iblis (Satan) is disciplined for not following this instruction - implying Iblis is an angel. Otherwise, the instruction for the angels to bow before Adam would not apply to Iblis. Unfortunately, the authors of the Koran let this detail slip when they say Iblis is a jinn rather than an angel.

So why would Allah punish Iblis for not bowing before Adam when that command was only for the angels? Every verse saying to bow before Adam is an instruction for angels only. And every verse where this instruction is given Iblis is castigated for not bowing before Adam. So, either Allah is unjust for punishing Iblis for an instruction he was not intended to follow or the Koran contains another contradiction.

The Quran, in many citations, portrays Satan or Iblis as an angel:

And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam." And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah). S. 2:34

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. S. 15:28-31

And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. S. 20:116

(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. S. 38:71-74

The natural reading of the above texts is to see Satan as an angel who refused to obey Allah’s order to worship Adam. The following passage brings out this point even more clearly:

And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." S. 7:11-12

Allah asks Iblis why he didn’t obey his instruction to the angels to prostrate to Adam, which presupposes that he was one of the angels. The text does not say that Allah commanded some other group along with the angels to worship Adam, and therefore makes no sense for Allah to hold Iblis accountable for not obeying a command that was given to them if he wasn’t an angel.

Yet the Quran introduces a discrepancy by identifying Iblis as a jinn:

And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc). S. 18:50

Thus, this either means that:

* Satan is an angel and therefore not a jinn.
* Or he is a jinn and therefore not an angel, which makes Allah unjust for blaming him for not obeying a command given to the angels and not to the jinn.
* Or the jinn are angels which introduces another contradiction as we will demonstrate shortly....


Read it all.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/iblis.html

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 27, 2011
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 27, 2011
uaehop wrote:BORING !

Try this instead

http://failblog.org/2011/12/23/epic-fai ... rica-fail/


Have you been refused a visa or something?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
Easy.

Not an angel - Jinn. No where does God state he was an angel, but clearly states he was a Jinn. Just being in the presence of angels does not make you an angel. (You could easily have looked this up if you had read a commentary, rather than relying on your usual blogger sources).

Arabic Rule Of Tagleeb The English translation of the first part of the verse ‘We said to the angels bow down to Adam: they bowed down except Iblis’, gives us the impression that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. Therefore according to that sentence Iblis may be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Qur’an say Iblis was an angel. Therefore there is no contradiction in the Qur’an.

Jinns have free will and can disobey Allah Secondly, Jinns have a free will and may or may not obey Allah, but angels have no free will and always obey Allah. Therefore the question of an angel disobeying Allah does not arise. This further supplements that Iblis was a Jinn and not an angel.


Next.

BTW - have you e-mailed Diana Nammi yet?

I note that your long list of Biblical confusions hasn't been dealt with either:
philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 28, 2011
You could easily have looked this up if you had read a commentary, rather than relying on your usual blogger sources


You could have also read the article as opposed to googling for responses.

The author of the article is a native Arabic speaker and directly addresses the paragraph you copy/pasted.

Another attempt of explaining away the discrepancy is to appeal to the rules of Arabic grammar, which is what this next Muslim tries to do:

2. Arabic Rule Of Tagleeb

The English translation of the first part of the verse ‘We said to the angels bow down to Adam: they bowed down except Iblis’, gives us the impression that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.

Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. Therefore according to that sentence Iblis may be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Qur’an say Iblis was an angel. Therefore there is no contradiction in the Qur’an. (Dr. Zakir Naik, Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims who have some knowledge of Islam; source)


To show why this ad hoc explanation is rather forced and very weak, let us take his same analogy and change it a bit. If for example, I address the same class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and it so happens that there are parents also present with their children, and I say in Arabic that all the boys should stand up and yet none of the parents stand, I cannot legitimately hold them liable since I wasn't addressing them directly. Let us also assume that at this class, both the principal and the vice-principal were present and didn't stand up after having told the boys to rise from their seats. Could I legitimately hold them accountable for failing to comply with my orders? Of course not, since they do not fall under the category of boys, nor do they come under the category of classmates. If I wanted both the parents and school officials to stand up I would need to mention them specifically.

It is obvious that the girl in Naik's analogy falls under the same general category of classmates and children, so a reference to boys can include her since the term boys wouldn't be gender specific in this case. (But even that would have to be gleaned from the context in which the word is being used since you may have a class which is made up of entirely boys). The mention of boys in this context would be a general statement referring to a group consisting of young children and schoolmates. The term would therefore include all the persons which would fall under that category, irrespective of gender.

Hence, the only way Naik’s example could serve as a valid analogy is if we were to take for granted that Iblis belongs to the same category of angels. But arguing this way leaves us with the problem of Iblis disobeying Allah when the Quran says that angels are never disobedient.

Also, there are situations where only part of the class is supposed to stand up. Just imagine there are 30 boys and ten girls in a class. The teacher says that all the boys should stand up. Does he mean all the pupils then? Or could it be that he meant really only the boys and not the girls? E.g. because the boys should then leave the room to attend auto mechanic class to learn how to repair cars while the girls remain in the room for learning knitting, or something of that nature. Thus, it isn’t the rule, really, but the context that determines the meaning.

Now had the Quran simply said that Allah commanded the heavenly beings, or the inhabitants of heaven to worship Adam then that would have been a different story. One could argue that the reference to heavenly inhabitants would most likely include Iblis, presuming of course that he originally was a heavenly creature.

To help further drive this point home here is another illustration: Suppose in heaven there had been angels, men and animals present when Allah chose to single out one man, Adam, for special honor and blessing. Suppose Allah had commanded that all the angels should bow down before Adam, which they do, but none of the humans or animals do so. Could Allah blame them for failing to bow before Adam despite the fact that he never specifically singled any of these other groups out? The obvious answer is, of course not.

As it stands, Naik's argument is pretty weak and quite unconvincing. Dr. Naik is simply committing the fallacy of false analogy at this point.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
Fail.

God says Iblis is a Jinn.
And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.


If your blogger wish to write long refutations of the explanation - so be it, he's free to disagree. A random blogger* is not an authority on Arabic grammar - just someone who seems to have invented a weak argument. However, we see yet again another case of Islamophobic bloggers inventing an argument and a contradiction that just isn't there in the Arabic Quran.

Now - the questions to you still remain, have you e-mailed Nammi and have you addressed the very real (rather than imagined) issues in the Bible?

Cheers,
Shafique

*in this case it is the Islamophobic blogger Sam Shamoun.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 28, 2011
God says Iblis is a Jinn.


Iblis is also an angel:

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. S. 38:73-74


All the angels except Iblis.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
I note that your blogger Sam does not dispute that Arabic rule that was given as explanation is a real rule. That speaks volumes.

Now, if you and Sam wish to have yet another 'Islamophobic-only' interpretation of Islam - go ahead. However, you asked a question and it has been answered.

Iblis was a Jinn. God says so. No contradiction in the Quran (Sam just imagines there is one).

Now - have you emailed Nammi and when will you address the real issues in the Bible linked to above?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
I love these "Arabic rules".

Apparently one shouldn't read the plain language of the "clear" Koran where it explains Iblis is an angel.

And btw, the grammar rule apparently refers to commands.

There's no command in the following verse:

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan)


And Sam already discusses the rather weak argument used. Perhaps you should read this time around?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
Sam does not say the Arabic rule does not apply, he just thinks it is a weak argument. Well bully for Sam. Reading his argument a second time hasn't made it any better.

C'mon eh - did you really think that not giving us Sam's details as the author would fool anyone? You want to believe this 'Islamophobic blogger only' theory - go ahead.

God says Iblis was a Jinn, and there's absolutely no confusion in anyone's mind on this. Only on some random blogger's web site.

Now.. have you emailed Nammi and when will you address the REAL Biblical issues listed?

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 28, 2011
You want to believe this 'Islamophobic blogger only' theory - go ahead.


Islamophobe: A non-Muslim who knows more than they are supposed to know about Islam.

Pray tell, what makes Sam Shamoun an "Islamophobe" (your definition) that doesn't make your Ahmadi missionary website you've been previously caught lifting your arguments from when discussing Christianity to post demonstrable myths and lies Christianophobic?

he just thinks it is a weak argument.


Seems like a pretty convincing argument to me.

So if male students are told to rise, would parents in attendance also be expected to stand? Of course not. That's the point Sam was making. The Muslim argument is therefore unconvincing and it certainly throws the Koran under the bus as an unclear text - you have to be aware of these Arabic grammar rules before fully understanding the Koran. Oh, and of course, these grammar rules are nowhere found in the Koran.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
Hey, if you want to make out Sam to be more than he is - go for it. He's a poster boy for the Islamophobic blogger:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/sam_s ... hristians_

But leaving that aside - he and you imagining there is a contradiction in the Quran does not make it so. God says Iblis was a Jinn - Muslims believe in what God says.

Now - how about you address the real issues of the Bible you've been studiously avoiding? I presume you have chickened out of actually e-mailing Nammi - despite saying you would. That speaks volumes.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 28, 2011
Sorry, what makes Sam an "Islamophobic blogger"? Is it the same qualities one will find at the Muslim missionary website you just linked to?

Now - how about you address the real issues of the Bible you've been studiously avoiding?


Are you referring to the mistaken Biblical and historical beliefs you've parroted from an Ahmadi missionary website that I have since refuted?

God says Iblis was a Jinn - Muslims believe in what God says.


But the Koran says:

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan)

So I don't know what I'm supposed to believe.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Sam is just a random Islamophobic blogger. And he's just as credible as your weird interpretations of Islam. I've conceded that you and Sam want to believe something that is not actually in the Quran - and I'm happy for you to continue to believe this.

I thought I was quite clear on this:
If your blogger wish to write long refutations of the explanation - so be it, he's free to disagree. A random blogger* is not an authority on Arabic grammar - just someone who seems to have invented a weak argument. However, we see yet again another case of Islamophobic bloggers inventing an argument and a contradiction that just isn't there in the Arabic Quran.

Now - how about tackling the real Biblical issues raised?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Sam is just a random Islamophobic blogger


Come on repetitive drone. I didn't ask you to repeat your previous belief. I want to know why in your fantasy world is Sam "Islamophobic" and how Sam's "Islamophobic" qualities are different from anything I'll find on the Muslim missionary website you linked to a few posts ago.

Basically, what you're saying is that one needs to be especially acquainted with these "rules" to understand the clear passages of the Koran.

But really, why should this clear verse be ignored:

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan)

All the angels except Iblis. Gee, could that mean Iblis is....an angel?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Repeating the weird interpretation that only Islamophobic bloggers seem to believe (rather than any expert or any Muslim) only makes you look desperate and foolish.

A bit like your insistence that honour killings have some link to Islam and offering to contact experts to back up your Islamophobic-only theory. You couldn't find one expert to agree with you there either.

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
You once again demonstrate you haven't read the article (this is coming from someone whining about not reading NYT times article in another thread). Sam quotes several Muslim scholars who reconcile the contradiction by claiming Iblis *was* an angel but became a jinn.

So, there you have it. Muslim scholars also agree the Koran states Iblis was an angel too.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Fail. Again.

Sam is on one of the usual fanciful "Islamophobic-only" flights of delusion where he's imagining a contradiction that isn't there. God says Iblis is a Jinn, and the Arabic rules of grammar show that he's only imagining a contradiction where there isn't one.

But hey - prove me wrong and find one expert who agrees with your Islamphobic blogger friend. No spin, or selective quotes please - but a direct full quote that Sam the blogger is right.

Cheers,

Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Fail. Again.


Really? Because it seems like I just responded to your claim that I couldn't find any Muslim scholar in agreement with Sam.

A Muslim scholar has been found. Indeed, if you read the article you already would have known this.

But hey, why is the Muslim scholar quoted in the article not good enough for you? He believes Iblis was an angel - as the Koran says - but changed into a jinn to reconcile the contradictory verses.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Yes, Fail. Again.

Your belief of a contradiction in the Quran is a Islamophobic-blogger only belief. Quote me any expert (in full with a reference/link) that agrees that there is a contradiction.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
Do you want me to find a Muslim who believes the Koran contains a contradiction or a Muslim scholar who reconciles the contradiction by claiming Iblis was once an angel but became a jinn?

The latter has definitely been accomplished. Just read the article.

--- Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:03 am ---

Here you go:

Aware of the foregoing dilemma Muslims have come up with some convenient and/or intriguing explanations. For instance, one Muslim translator distorted the text of S. 18:50 in order to make it say that Iblis became a jinn, not that he was a jinn:

We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! Rashad Khalifa

Khalifa’s rendering presupposes that Iblis was an angel before becoming a jinn, an understanding which, as we stated above, poses additional problems which we will see a little later. Khalifa’s followers provide the reasons why he translated the text in this manner:

The Arabic in verse 18:50 could be translated as he was a jinn or it could be translated as he became a jinn. The following translation of the Arabic verse 18:50 stating that Satan became a jinn, however, is the correct understanding for reasons stated below… It can be understood that Satan became disobedient and therefore no longer an angel through looking at other verses as well as this one rather than coming to a conclusion using only this verse. We should not take the scripture partially… First, God spoke specifically to the angels, not the angels and the jinns… Second, God issued the command to fall prostrate to the angels; and the angels fell prostrate, all of them, except Satan. Some Islamic "scholars" argue about the use of the Arabic word "illah" (except), but it is just a distraction from the fact that God is clearly speaking to and giving the command to angels… Third, There is no mistaking that Satan has fallen, God tells us Satan is in his act of rebellion, which is followed by his banishment… Lastly, the Islamic "scholars" claim that angels are made of light, but nowhere in the Quran does it say what angels are made of. Since there are no inconsistencies or contradictions in the Quran and it is perfect (16:103,18:2, 26:195), complete (6:115, 41:3), and fully detailed (6:114, 7:52, 10:37), we can conclude that the confusion is caused by the contradicting Hadith. (Source)

Still others claim that jinn are actually a class of angels created to guard paradise. Renowned Sunni exegete and historian al-Tabari wrote:.............

...This interpretation would imply that Iblis did not become a jinn but already was one, and being one meant that he was also an angelic being.

The late Muhammad Asad agreed with this view, that jinn are angels, since he stated in his footnote to S. 18:50:

53 Denoting, in this instance, the angels (see Appendix III). (Source)

And then wrote in an appendix that:...


So Muslims either believe Iblis was an angel but became a jinn or that jinns are angels.

And voila, that reconciles the contradictory statements in the Koran.

Which do you believe? That Iblis, once an angel, became a jinn or that jinns are a class of angels?
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
I want you to find one expert or a Muslim that agrees with Sam's theory that there is a contradiction in the Quran on this subject. Just quote me their statement in full with a reference - the article is devoid of such a quote.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 29, 2011
That's been done. Muslims have reconciled the contradiction in the Koran by inventing stories that Iblis was an angel but became a jinn or that jinns like Iblis were also angels.

If there is no contradiction, then Muslims would not resort to making up these stories.



So, do you believe that Iblis was an angel that became a jinn or that Iblis was a jinn and angel at the same time?



You do realize this is what the Muslims quoted in the thread believe. And they have to, otherwise the Koran would contradict itself and fundamentalist Muslims cannot allow for that.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
Eh, you are not gonna convert us with his half-baked attempts. To convert us first you need to understand Islam and make real agruments. Why don't you take an Islamic course from a reputable Islamic scholar. Get to know first.

--- Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:55 am ---

"We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn"


That red part doesn't even make sense. So we have an entity 'satan' that is different from angels already.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
shafique wrote:I want you to find one expert or a Muslim that agrees with Sam's theory that there is a contradiction in the Quran on this subject.
Why do you need an expert? Can't you read the quran and see for yourself if there is a contradiction or not? :shock:
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
DFT , if eh read the quran then he wouldn't be arguing this. The verse is very clear satan was not an angel, never was. It was a separate entity with freewill. Angels doesn't have freewill.
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
DFT wrote:Why do you need an expert? Can't you read the quran and see for yourself if there is a contradiction or not?


There is no contradiction - I explained this in my first post of this thread. It is really to help eh out - he seems to refuse to accept that only Islamophobic bloggers such as Sam belief in this fanciful theory of his. If he realises that no expert shares Sam's theory, perhaps he'll see the error of his way.

As Nucleus says - this comes from not reading the Quran and trusting what random bloggers have to say.

eh should spend his time tackling the real issues with the Bible which he is running away from, and making good on his empty boast that he would e-mail experts on honour killings to see whether they agree with his rogue theories. He can run, but he can't hide. ;)

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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
Perhaps if you've read the articles you'd see Muslims making up stories to account for the contradictory verses in the Koran. I'm amazed this needs further explanation.

Nucleus wrote:That red part doesn't even make sense.


Then why did the Muslim scholar interpret the Koran in a way that doesn't make sense?

Could it be because the Koran says Iblis was an angel and an jinn?

Let's see what his explanation is:



The Arabic in verse 18:50 could be translated as he was a jinn or it could be translated as he became a jinn. The following translation of the Arabic verse 18:50 stating that Satan became a jinn, however, is the correct understanding for reasons stated below... It can be understood that Satan became disobedient and therefore no longer an angel through looking at other verses as well as this one rather than coming to a conclusion using only this verse. We should not take the scripture partially... First, God spoke specifically to the angels, not the angels and the jinns... Second, God issued the command to fall prostrate to the angels; and the angels fell prostrate, all of them, except Satan. Some Islamic "scholars" argue about the use of the Arabic word "illah" (except), but it is just a distraction from the fact that God is clearly speaking to and giving the command to angels... Third, There is no mistaking that Satan has fallen, God tells us Satan is in his act of rebellion, which is followed by his banishment... Lastly, the Islamic "scholars" claim that angels are made of light, but nowhere in the Quran does it say what angels are made of. Since there are no inconsistencies or contradictions in the Quran and it is perfect (16:103,18:2, 26:195), complete (6:115, 41:3), and fully detailed (6:114, 7:52, 10:37), we can conclude that the confusion is caused by the contradicting Hadith. (Source)


So you see, we have Muslim scholars who argue that Iblis was indeed an angel but to reconcile the contradictory passages in the Koran, they must invent fanciful stories that Iblis, once an angel, became a jinn or that jinn are really angels to begin with.

What's your personal explanation dealing with the contradictory verses in the Koran?

So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan)




???
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - Angel Or Jinn? Dec 30, 2011
eh - you've failed.

Either try and find one expert that agrees with Sam or accept that it is only Islamophobic bloggers that get things this wrong.

Now, why don't you turn your attention to the real issues in the Bible rather than these fantasies of your blogger mate? I take it you STILL haven't found one expert who agrees with your other blogger-only theory about honour killings. How many of these theories do you have? :roll:

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
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Re: KoraniK Kontradiction: Iblis - angel or jinn? Dec 30, 2011
Either try and find one expert that agrees with Sam or accept that it is only Islamophobic bloggers that get things this wrong.


I have. Try reading Sam's article if you're still confused.

The evidence is the fact that Muslim scholars have proposed several explanations to reconcile the contradictory verses in the Koran - one Muslim scholar proposing Iblis was an angel but became a jinn.

The scholar explicitly explains in the quote I've provided that the Koran "clearly" says Iblis was an angel. He then goes on to explain that Iblis must have become a jinn at a later point but was an angel when Allah commands the angels to bow before Adam.

This is, of course, a forced interpretation. The scholar, a Muslim fundamentalist, can't accept the existence of contradictory passages in the Koran, so irons out the contradictions by coming up with a story that satisfies the discrepancy in the Koran calling Iblis an angel in one passage and a jinn in another.

First, God spoke specifically to the angels, not the angels and the jinns... Second, God issued the command to fall prostrate to the angels; and the angels fell prostrate, all of them, except Satan. Some Islamic "scholars" argue about the use of the Arabic word "illah" (except), but it is just a distraction from the fact that God is clearly speaking to and giving the command to angels...


The scholar fully recognizes that Iblis was an angel according to the Koran. Do you dispute that this is what the Muslim scholar is saying?

Could you also explain your previous statement in this thread:

God says Iblis was a Jinn, and there's absolutely no confusion in anyone's mind on this.


Yet as Sam's article shows, a number of Muslim scholars do indeed dispute your claim that Iblis was always a jinn or that he was also an angel as well as a jinn.

So, it appears you've back peddled quite a bit in this thread.

Do you acknowledge that Muslim scholars have argued that Iblis was originally an angel as they read it in the Koran and/or Iblis was both a jinn and an angel?
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