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Flying Dutchman · Mar 23, 2012

It has been argued that Pali unilateral bid for statehood would be a grave mistake. All the signs are there, that that becomes reality. One more, in a long Pali history of never missing an opportunity to make a wrong decision.

The PA is reeling from a sharp drop in foreign aid following its unilateral bid for statehood at the United Nations last year. Even Arab nations that supported the bid have failed to deliver on their pledges amid the upheaval of the Arab Spring.

In a report released on Saturday, the International Monetary Fund projected that if donor countries continued to withhold promised aid, and if last year's budget deficit of $1.1 billion were to recur, the PA would find itself with a budget shortfall of $500 million.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... 2txQ9n8-vU

Hamas controlled Gaza, has a fuel shortage. Israel offered an solution, but Hamas refused, and also has problems dealing with Egypt. It has been noted before that hatred against jews in the Arab world can run so deep, that it trumps anything else, including their own lives.

Gaza's Hamas rulers are caught between their rage at Israel and their distaste for having to cooperate with Egypt. The result has been a wintry region without electricity and, within the next few days, the situation will reach crisis proportions if the leadership does not come up with a solution.

More than a year ago, the terrorist government decided the smuggling tunnels beneath the border with Egypt could provide as much and cheaper fuel than that sold to the region by its enemy, Israel.

Egypt itself has suffered shortages – one of the reasons for last year's revolution. Generous profits gleaned by Hamas taxes on subsidized fuel intended for Egyptians sparked anger in Cairo's new government, led by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Egypt put a stop to the practice and instead insisted on shipping the fuel in a legitimate fashion, through Israel's land crossing. Hamas countered with a demand to ship the fuel through the Rafiah crossing with Egypt – and there the matter ended, with Egypt having lost patience.

Fuel supplies to the terrorist-controlled region's power plant ended in early February, sending Gaza into freezing cold darkness.

Fuel for hospital generators is nearly at an end; when it runs out, premature and sick babies in incubators could die. People with failing kidneys who need dialysis will be unable to clean their blood – and they will die too. Intensive care units will be without the life-saving equipment they need.

Many ambulances are without gasoline, and the rest will shortly be off the streets. Sewage treatment facilities will be unable to operate, and water supplies will drop because pumps won't operate. With no sign the flow will resume any time soon, the storage tanks are nearly dry.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... 2t0Ddn8-vU

shafique · Mar 23, 2012

Flying Dutchman wrote:Hamas controlled Gaza, has a fuel shortage.

Isn't Gaza also under a petulant blockade by Israel since the Gazans voted in Hamas in fair elections?

The aim of the blockade (indistinguishable from a medieval siege, I'd argue) to cause collective punishment to the Gazans by causing economic hardships?

That said, what is your actual argument? That Israel should continue the Military Occupation and blockade of land captured in 1967 instead of letting the Palestinians form their own state? Sounds like a tired old colonial argument for continued colonisation to me. Or am I missing something here?

'The natives aren't ready for independence' sounded very arrogant in the last century - doesn't it stick in your mouth to make the same argument now?

Cheers,

Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 23, 2012

shafique wrote:That Israel should continue the Military Occupation and blockade of land captured in 1967 instead of letting the Palestinians form their own state?

The Rafah crossing is not blocked by Israel. As are the Israeli border crossing with Gaza, they are also not blocked. As a matter of fact they stayed open, despite recent Pali shelling of the crossings. Pali's wanted them close, Israel kept them open, despite the shelling and danger for their life, in order to let continue food for Gaza civilians. Again proof that the IDF is the most moral army in the world!
Pali's made a big mistake and are already a failed state, before coming a state. The Pali Arab majority areas should join Jordan.

shafique wrote:'The natives aren't ready for independence' sounded very arrogant in the last century

Jews are the natives.

shafique · Mar 23, 2012

Flying Dutchman wrote:The Rafah crossing is not blocked by Israel. As are the Israeli border crossing with Gaza, they are also not blocked.

With respect, this was not what I asked.

The Blockade of Gaza by Israel was aided by Mubarak - who could have chosen to negate the siege by allowing free passage. He was put under pressure from the USA and Israel to not do so. That the border with Egypt has not been fully open since is still something that is being discussed actively in Egypt.

The point remains though, that Gaza is under siege - and one imposed after a free and fair election, and just because Israel was not happy with the democratic outcome (which was really a rejection of corrupt Fatah administration).

The Israelis are the military occupiers and the 'settlers' are colonists. You did not explain what your solution was - that the military occupation and colonisation (of West Bank, annexed East Jerusalem etc) continue?

'The natives are not ready for independence' is quite an outdated argument. Unless you think the Military Occupiers are arguing Jews aren't ready for independence, I can't see why you would mention Jews in regard to the Military Occupation and independence of the people living under Military Occupation.

Can you at least explain what your point is? Should the people under Military Occupation continue to live under Military Occupation because they haven't been allowed full control of their resources, borders, seas etc? Is this your argument? Or are you saying something else?

Cheers,

Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 23, 2012

shafique wrote: He was put under pressure from the USA and Israel to not do so.

And it's Israels fault (and the US) again. Typical.

shafique wrote:that Gaza is under siege - and one imposed after a free and fair election

-The restrictions on Gaza were imposed before of Pali terrorism
-The mandate of the election is long gone. Hamas are officially dictators now

shafique · Mar 23, 2012

Let's leave who is at fault for the siege - it is not really relevant to the question I posed to you.

I asked you what your solution or suggestion was?

Should the military occupation or control of land captured in 1967 continue because the institutions under occupation have been damaged by the years of occupation and the siege?

In a nutshell, aren't you trying to say 'the natives aren't ready for independence'?

Cheers,

Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 23, 2012

shafique wrote:Should the military occupation or control of land captured in 1967 continue because the institutions under occupation have been damaged by the years of occupation and the siege?

Institutions have been damages by Pali corruption and inter-fractional fighting amonst Pali's. Pali's should join Jordan. Jordan=Palestine and Palestine=Jordan

shafique wrote:In a nutshell, aren't you trying to say 'the natives aren't ready for independence'?

In a nutshell, jews are the natives.

shafique · Mar 23, 2012

Sorry, I didn't see what your answer was. Your opinion on the institutions that are in the land captured in 1967 and since under military control and occupation is vaguely interesting, but doesn't answer the question.

Are you arguing that the people living under Military Occupation are not ready for independence? Or do you have a separate point?

If they are not ready - is your solution that the Israeli military occupation continue - or are you proposing a way of stopping the occupation short of independence?

(I'm still not sure why you're bring up people's religions - I'm talking about the land that is militarily occupied. The Military Occupying force is not made up of only Jews, there are non-Jews serving in the army, and on the Palestinian side there are Christians, Muslims and Arafat even had a Jew on his cabinet, if you recall.. so it is curious why you mention 'Jews')

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 23, 2012

shafique wrote:Are you arguing that the people living under Military Occupation are not ready for independence? Or do you have a separate point?

Point is Pali Arabs should join Jordan.

shafique wrote:If they are not ready - is your solution that the Israeli military occupation continue - or are you proposing a way of stopping the occupation short of independence?

My proposal is that Pali Arabs should join Jordan.

shafique wrote:I'm still not sure why you're bring up people's religions

I was referring to jews as an ethinc group, not as a religion.

shafique · Mar 23, 2012

The independent state of Palestine is indeed free to decide whether it wants to join with the separate state of Jordan. But that can only happen after Israel stops the Military Occupation of land it captured in 1967.

However, it appears that you are saying that the people who are living under Military Occupation should not become an independent state.

I thought you were going to engage in a discussion, FD. I have to say I am disapointed that you are deliberately avoiding a central and pertitent question I posed you in the first post - which is 'what is your solution'? Even now, you have not said what happens to the land under Military Occupation - only that the 'Pali Arabs should join Jordan'.

As for Jews as a ethnic group - still your point does not make sense. This is about land under military occupation - and the Military Occupiers are not all ethnic Jews.

I think that this thread was nothing more than a smear campaign to support the on-going Military Occupation and the denial of the rights of people living under Occupation to the right of self-determination.

Cheers,

Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 23, 2012

shafique wrote: 'what is your solution'? Even now, you have not said what happens to the land under Military Occupation

The land of the previous British Mandate with an Arab majority should join with Jordan. This even includes land within the 1949 armictice lines. Areas with a jewish majority of the previous British Mandate should be included by Israel. Every citizen should actively announce loyality to the state they live in, otherwise they loose citizenship, which they can get to the other state. So a jew in an Arab majority area, that refuses to announce loyality to the Arab state, should go and be accepted by Israel.

shafique · Mar 23, 2012

Can you just clarify - you are giving me an explanation why you wish the Military Occupation of land captured in 1967 to continue, or to change to complete annexation?

Land captured in 1967 militarily is not considered as part of Israel under International Law - some in Israel see it otherwise and want to annex the land illegally. Do you support or oppose this illegal act?

(Your way of parcelling up the land based on majority is an interesting one - especially given the recent colonisation of occupied land in recent decades. And to me it is another way of saying Israel should not give up the land under Military Occupation right now - and it also smacks to me of Apartheid.)

Edit - let me clarify what I mean by Apartheid - first it is the segregation based on race (as FD defines Jews as a race) and secondly is the establishment of bantustans. Also it strikes me as rather 'colonial' to advocate that an occupied people be not allowed self determination but should be assimilated in another state.

Four years ago, FD agreed that the facts of the occupation were quite simple and even said that the majority of Israelis would be willing to give up the occupation:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Yeah, heard Finkelstein speaking. He is absolutely right in my opinion. It is very simple. Question in my mind is, if Israel is willing to do this will it bring absolute peace? I still believe the majority of Israeli´s are willing to give up the occupied terrorities (inclusing east Jerusalem) if it guarantees lasting peace and stability.
Also, the one state solution does seem to get more publicity. At least more people are discussing it. Eventually this is how it will turn out I think, probably with a two state solution as a temporary solution. As long as Israel likes to see itself as a jewish state, it is inherently discriminatory.

dubai-politics-talk/demystifying-the-palestinian-issue-t25254.html

The facts listed in that thread haven't changed since then, neither has my opinion.

Cheers,
Shafique

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