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Oh dear.

eh - I had a look at your first 4 convert terrorists. The first one, the 7/7 bomber who killed 26, the second was the convert Dellosa who admitted to placing the Abu Sayaf bomb on the Phillipine Super Ferry which killed 116 (I couldn't find references about him being charged for the crime though - could you?) - but no worries we'll count him.

As for the next two - these proved to be more elusive. You claimed 12 killed in the following:

12 more:

MANILA, February 15, 2005 --- A spate of bomb explosions in Makati City, General Santos City, and Davao City, killed at least 12 people on Monday, turning the Valentine's Day celebrations into a nightmare.

http://www.filipinoexpress.com/19/08_news.html

I couldn't see where it says these were carried out by converts.


Therefore (pending your evidence that the 12 were killed by converts) your score has to go down:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 2
Number Killed by these: 140
Number Injured: tbc



The offer to look at your next 2 alleged convert terrorists is still open (and I'll be happy to increase your numbers once you show us the evidence that converts were involved). Note that I excluded from my totals all the incidences where converts were only 'suspected' to have done the killing.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please try and keep up. The bombing you posted was carried out by members of the Rajah Sulaiman movement, an Islamist terror group made up of converts to Islam.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/158

and then I'll check the evidence you provide that shows they were indeed converts.

Interesting double standard. I must prove that attacks carried out by Islamist terror groups made up entirely or mostly of converts to Islam were indeed carried out by converts.

It speaks volumes that you have not done the same yourself. But hey, why would you worry about accuracy?

the evidence for the NLFT being comprised of converts was presented, read by yourself and accepted.

If there is evidence that the NLFT is made mostly up of converts then I must have missed it. I did read your quote that says the Christian population in Tripura grew by 90% over a fifteen year period (the Hindua population, for comparison, grew only by 35%, but again, they are larger than the Christians), but I have already explained to you numerous times by now that I had misread your quote and I take my previous claim back.

It's interesting that you seem to ignore this and repeat what I was misinformed over.

The evidence is still there

Ok, I'll wait for you to re-post the evidence - that the NLFT is made up entirely of converts.

Therefore (pending your evidence that the 12 were killed by converts) your score has to go down:


Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 2
Number Killed by these: 140
Number Injured: tbc


Let's not lose track of the fact we are comparing statistics.

As for the NLFT being made up of converts - the links and quotes are on the first two pages of this thread (which includes your acknowledgement that they are indeed Christian Converts). You read it first time round - so I guess you only need to revise the evidence.

In the mean time, let me know if you find any evidence of converts other than the two listed above - I'm sure that there was at least one other example. List the person/event and I'll update your list.

I'm a bit embarrassed that you are back down to 2 - so I'll spend some time helping you out with your count.

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, I've already shown that the Rajah Sulaiman movement was both behind the Valentine's Day bombings and that they are an Islamic terrorist group composed entirely of converts to Islam. Simple logic should take care of the rest.

Now, can you provide me with a link that says all of the NLFT's membership are converts to Christianity or that even most of them are?

Still waiting for your updated count.

Nope, I haven't seen evidence that the Valentine's day bombings were carried out by converts to Islam - sorry. The link you gave said it was the Abu Sayaf group who claimed responsibility:

The Abu Sayyaf Muslim extremist group immediately claimed responsibility for three bombings and warned there was more to follow.
...
Abu Solaiman, a senior Abu Sayyaf leader, said on radio his group carried out the attacks in General Santos and Davao to punish President Glloria Macapagal-Arroyo for heavy military offensives in Jolo, its stronghold.

“This is our Valentine’s gift for her,” Solaiman said.

I've excluded events that were 'suspected' to be carried out by converts. I trust that you would do the same. If you now want to include these events, then I'll have to go back and add all the events that were suspected to be carried out by the NLFT.

Perhaps you do now have evidence they were converts - if so, I'm sorry. Let me know how many converts took part and where this evidence is and I'll gladly add these terrorists to your two current numpties (as I said, I feel sorry you are back down to 2 and will help you increase your count).

I've already referred you to the evidence for the NLFT - let me narrow it down for you - first page of this thread, October 2nd 2009. Here's another clue - it's the post immediately before you said you conceded they were Christian Converts!

Cheers,
Shafique

It's not exactly uncommon for multiple Islamic terror groups to take credit for terror attacks.

When Palestinian terrorists blew up Israeli buses, several groups would often take credit.

The evidence is from every site I've been on discussing the Rajah Sulaiman Movement. I'll take their word that this convert terrorist group was responsible for the attack over your belief.

first page of this thread, October 2nd 2009. Here's another clue - it's the post immediately before you said you conceded they were Christian Converts!

Great - could you re-post the article which said that a majority of the NLFT are converts to Christianity?

Oh, and here is the evidence from this link:

http://www.zimbio.com/Saudi+Arabia/arti ... Terrorists

Once you go through the link and verify that converts were behind the valentines day bombings, I can go ahead and add to my count:

Philippine authorities charged Dellosa with participation in the ASG's 2001 kidnapping of 20 people, several of whom were killed, from the Dos Palmas resort in Palawan, the Philippines.

Sorry, still couldn't see any evidence for the belief that converts were responsible for the Valentine day bombings. The link you gave said that the 'Jamestown foundation' believed that the RSM was responsible for the Makati bombing which killed 4.

However, your first quote showed that this was claimed by Abu Sayaf group.

In any case, you haven't provided any count of supposed converts to add to your 2.
(Dellosa is the second of the two you have listed. How many do you want to add to his count of killings? Let me know and I'll add it to the current stats:


Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 2
Number Killed by these: 140
Number Injured: tbc


I've given all the references for the NLFT on pg1 of this thread. Please let me know if you want me to add to my list all the terrorist attacks that were 'suspected' by the authorities to be the work of the Christian Converts (my numbers currently exclude these).

Cheers,
Shafique

Then it is not my problem that you have not read my link to see that converts have been arrested and charged for their role in the Valentines day bombings.

It's also interesting that you would dismiss what some websites say but pedal, so far, unsubstantiated, uncited death counts from a dot com site that has not shown any real evidence that the NLFT are actually behind any of the attacks they are blamed for - indeed, even if these attacks were carried out and these numbers were not fabricated.

You have not provided any news reports to actually verify that these alleged massacres have taken place. Why should I take what some website claims? Do you have documents from the government of India which corroborate these death counts? How do you know that these attacks were carried out by the terror group in question?

I would like you to provide news reports alongside your numbers to at least verify that people were killed. Whether they were killed by the NLFT or some other insurgent group operating in Tripura can be determined later on.

Au contraire, mon ami.

I did read your link - and as I said, there is no evidence that converts carried out the valentine's day massacres. The best I could find was a belief that one bombing which killed 4 may have been carried out by the RSM.

As I said, if you want to include 'suspected convert terrorists' - let me know and I'll go back and add to my list.

(However, if you have some confessions or convictions, then this would be ok - let me know and we can the names and numbers below)


Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 2
Number Killed by these: 140
Number Injured: tbc


C'mon - I'm trying to help you here - let's add to your list of 2. Just give us some real evidence to work with.

Cheers,
Shafique

Really? You read my link, huh?

ANGELO RAMIREZ TRINIDAD

Angelo Ramirez Trinidad is a member of RSM, and at the time of his arrest in February 2005, was also a member of an ASG operational cell in Manila.

On the orders of senior ASG figure Jainal Antel Sali, Trinidad and an accomplice conducted the February 2005 Valentine's Day bombing of a passenger bus in Manila that killed six and wounded over 100. Trinidad assembled the bomb, helped plant it on the bus and triggered it by cell phone. The ASG publicly claimed credit for this bombing. A Philippine court convicted Trinidad of the bombing in October 2005.

RICARDO PEREZ AYERAS

Ricardo Perez Ayeras is a member of RSM. Philippine Government authorities arrested Ayeras in January 2007 for his role in the February 2005 Valentine's Day bombing of a passenger bus in Manila that killed six and wounded over 100.

I guess you must have missed the bits that converts to Islam have been arrested and convicted for their role in triple bombings on St. Valentine's Day. Or perhaps that is not good enough for you???

Maybe I can scour the internet looking for unverified death tolls attributing attacks to the RSM. Then perhaps you'll believe they're responsible for the attacks.

Excellent - I see now you are bringing out the exact references and providing the counts. You were trying to add 12 to the numbers killed - but we can now directly attribute 6 deaths to these 2 converts. So, we now have two more to add to your list and 6 killed and 100 injured (let's call it 120 - as it says 'over 100').

Now, watch closely - I'll do this for you this time, but next time you are on your own.

2 plus 2 equals 4. (Got it?)

Now, here's a trickier sum - 140 plus 6 equals? .... yes, 146.

Injured now becomes 120.

See - not so tough after all.

Now, updated scores:


Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 146
Number Injured: 120

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388



Only 238 behind now, but no problems - I'll help you out a bit more - please provide the next set of references.

Cheers,
Shafique

You were trying to add 12 to the numbers killed - but we can now directly attribute 6 deaths to these 2 converts. So, we now have two more to add to your list and 6 killed and 100 injured (let's call it 120 - as it says 'over 100').

There were three bombings for a total of twelve deaths. Now, you will have to cite news articles confirming every dead body you have counted.

Indeed, you'll have to show that the NLFT were actually behind these attacks as you have expected this from myself, in addition to providing evidence that convert members of the NLFT were specifically involved.

I mean, we wouldn't want one person to have to prove converts were behind certain attacks while you can't even prove the attacks and killings you've listed even took place.

Hey, I'm rooting for you right now - I'm sure that if we put our heads together we can get your count to double figures (sorry, let me be more specific - above 10).

I'll happily add the extra 6 killings - its only that what you quoted above only said 6 deaths were attributed to the two converts. I'll admit that I am concentrating on adding to your totals (i.e. doing your sums for you) - and am relying on you to present the numbers (with references) to me.

C'mon - we need another 6 more converts to hit the magic 10!


Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 146
Number Injured: 120

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388


Cheers,
Shafique

Cool - but I think you need help more than I do. You have not provided a single news article verifying any of your numbers.

So, it looks like your count stands at around zero.

No problem - I've listed quite a few of your quaint beliefs - we'll just add the interesting leap of logic that equates 232 with zero.

But, as I said, I'm happy to help out and try increase your count of 4 - I'm sure if we really try we can reach 10.

So whatdaya say? Shall we go for number 5?

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, shall we now try and find a fifth convert terrorist for you?

I want to help you reach 10 by the new year - so c'mon, let's have your next candidate. You can verify my numbers in the new year - but for now let's both focus on getting your numbers up, all in the spirit of Christmas!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:No problem - I've listed quite a few of your quaint beliefs - we'll just add the interesting leap of logic that equates 232 with zero.

But, as I said, I'm happy to help out and try increase your count of 4 - I'm sure if we really try we can reach 10.

So whatdaya say? Shall we go for number 5?

Cheers,
Shafique

That's quite simple. In fairness to accuracy, I can't accept your figures until you a) provide news articles confirming the death toll, b) show that the NLFT were indeed behind these atrocities and c) prove that Christian converts carried these attacks out.

I've invited you to verify my figures - the source is on the first page of this list and I painstakingly went through each incident. Given that there were so many, and that I excluded the majority of the incidents listed - my count is a deliberate understatement.

But that is my count - I'm still on a 'Christmas truce' and trying to help you get your figures up from 4 terrorists.

You can verify my figures and challenge each incident I've counted in the New Year - I'll listen to each and every challenge where you think the terrorist acts listed should or should not be counted.

So, shall we try and get your count up to 5 - or are you 'sticking' at 4 terrorists over the 9 years in question (2001 to 2009 inclusive)?

Cheers,
Shafique

Oh dear, you are a bit of a slow one, I see.

the source is on the first page of this list and I painstakingly went through each incident.

Yes, that's the entire point.

Please try and read. I'm well aware that your figures are coming from a dot com website. What I want are *news* articles confirming the casualty toll in this list.

So far it is an uncited, unsupported, unsubstantiated figure that I won't entertain until the conditions in my post above are met.

I understand your objections - I also understand you don't want to do any work and verify that my figures are understatements. I've done my bit and given you the source - you can quite easily go through each terrorist act and then look up the newspaper reports from Indian to verify that the source is correct.

All my figures have detailed dates, locations and numbers and come from a terrorist monitoring organisation

The list of terror acts by the 'Christian Al-Qaeda' as they are sometimes called, is here:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... LFT_tl.htm

But that is for the new year - shall we try and get you to 5 terrorists? Or are you happy to stick at 4 over the 9 years?

Cheers,
Shafique

I also understand you don't want to do any work and verify that my figures are understatements.

Nope, I don't want to do your work for you. When you get around to it, please provide a news report for every incident that meets the following guidelines above - a) the crime was actually committed, b) it was carried out by members of the NLFT and c) these members were actual converts to Christianity.

Fine, if you don't want to verify my figures, then there's not much more I can do to help you on that front - I've been open about where my figures come from.

So, can we now try and get you to 5 terrorists, or are you happy to stick at 4 for the 9 years?

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, Christmas is over and the Muslim Convert terrorist count still stands at 4. I'm still a bit embarrassed at this low count, and will extend my offer to help get it to 10 indefinitely (i.e. I won't look to increase my numbers until I help our dear young friend out and get his figures into double figures).

Perhaps if you let me know which of your favourite websites I should consult, we can uncover mad-terrorist No 5?

Cheers,
Shafique

No problem - just go through the thread and include the links that have already been provided for you.

Last I recall, I have documented three or four convert suicide bombers in addition to numerous terror attacks carried out by Muslim converts.

I said I would 'help' - not do +all+ the work for you.

Let me know which particular news story you want me to look into for terrorist number 5 - c'mon we have less than a week if we want to get your count up to 10 before the end of the year!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
Between 2001 and 2009:

Number of Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 4
Number Killed by these: 146
Number Injured: 120

vs

Number of non-Muslim Convert Terrorist carrying out attacks: 242
Number killed by these: 255
Number injured :388



Only 238 behind now, but no problems - I'll help you out a bit more - please provide the next set of references.

So, please let's have reference for terrorist number 5.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, eh - did we ever find a fifth convert who committed a terrorist act between 2001 and 2009?



Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for the bump - have you found a news article of a single Christian convert terrorist who meets the parameters set in the first page of this thread yet?

I've already documented three or four Muslim convert suicide bombers - common sense tells me, that for every dude who blows himself up, there will be dozens of other non-suicide bomber terrorists.