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I'm confused!

There are so many contradictions in Islam. They manifest themselves here on DF everyday.
We have DF's very own Ayatolla admitting he didn't take an Islamic mortgage because an infidel one was more financial viable for him.
Then there's the little munchkin, a practising Muslim, who shacks up with his Filipino girlie friend, breaking the law of the land aswell as going against Islam.
Then there's Sym. I'm not sure what his game is, death to all Jews and then with a flick of a switch, he's all sweetness and light and holiday photos.
When I was in Dubai recently, the place seemed to be over run with Saudis. I got talking to a few and they all seemed very nice indeed. One nice boy became very interested in Beth and we spent a good few hours talking to him and his two friends by the pool. They seemed very respectable, one being an Engineering student and one studying to be a doctor. One thing that I was very interested in was that they were all drinking beer. I asked them about it and they explained that their families didn't mind them drinking alcohol. Not only did they drink beer but spirits too. How fasinating!

It must be tough being a Muslim, with so many rules to break.

I found it all very amusing that they all fasted during Ramadan. Does fasting wipe out all of your sins or something?

Was this an exercise in spotting the obvious mistakes?

1. Wrong forum.
2. Fundamental mistake in title - you're giving examples of people not apparently being good Muslims - but not contraditions in the religion itself.

But you're opening statement is spot on.

Bethsmum wrote:I'm confused!

Cheers,
Shafique

I'm quite happy that I've posted it on the right forum.

Surely picking and choosing what you want to follow in your religion is contradicting yourself?

From what I can see, none of you are particularly good Muslims. It must be tough being you.

If you say so.

We have eh defining a new religion in the religion forum, and here BM is reinventing the meaning of the word 'contradiction'! I blame the teachers personally!

Cheers,
Shafique

Contradiction:

A contradiction is two propositions used in combination where one makes the other impossible. It is something that is A and non-A at the same time. A contradiction, therefore, cannot exist in reality, since existence exists (whereas a contradiction could not possibly exist). In the cognitive process, reaching a contradiction as a conclusion or evaluation of reality is proof of an error in one's thinking.
A square circle is a contradiction in terms. It cannot even be imagined.

"Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned." (Avicenna, Medieval Philosopher)

BM's observations offer a perfect example of the definition.

Please explain what it is that you dont understand and I will endeavour to convey it in another way

Cheers

Shafique you may well be a good Muslim but from personal experience in Dubai I have to say it is hard to ignore the fact that there are so many who do tend to pick and choose what to believe and when to believe. These same failings I think apply to all religions in general and who am I to judge. Live and let live and let those deal with their own spiritual well being. I think MY confusion comes from a lack of knowledge that maybe you can help me clear up. How as a 'good' Muslim do you feel about us non Muslims. Are we the enemy? Are we to be obliterated from the earth? Are you breaking any rules by befriending us and socialising with us? Or are we just to be pitied because we will not be saved and live our lives in a different way? As I remember from being one of the only Catholics at a Catholic school I tended to be treated with kindness and sympathy by the nuns because obviously I was going straight to hell. I do not mean to start an argument or appear rude I am just genuinely interested in what your views are on this. Is tolerance of other religions preached at Mosques because alot of what we see and read is purely death to the infidel, if it is how and what are the moderate muslim community doing to combat the extremism that seems to be the public face of Islam. Is there a conflict between say an Indonesian muslim and a British muslim or a Saudi muslim and a UAE muslim? Are your beliefs the same? similar? completely different? It is so hard to write something and not capture the tone of the conversation and I hope that you take this for what it is, a genuine attempt at understanding. Sorry lots of questions.

-- Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:48 pm --

sorry non Catholics

I can't resist a pedant's challenge.

Ok, thread title = 'Contradictions in Islam'

Islam is a religion. Title implies there are contradictions within Islam - or the teachings of Islam.

Let's see the definition of Contradiction:

viking-warrior wrote:Contradiction:

A contradiction is two propositions used in combination where one makes the other impossible. It is something that is A and non-A at the same time.

Fair definition - no argument there.

viking-warrior wrote:A square circle is a contradiction in terms. It cannot even be imagined.

Good example.

viking-warrior wrote:BM's observations offer a perfect example of the definition.

Please explain what it is that you dont understand and I will endeavour to convey it in another way

Oh, an offer of help. Excellent. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.

Explain to me how the observations are exposing contradictions within Islam. What are the two 'Islamic' propositions that are mutually exclusive?

For example, in Islam pork is forbidden in almost all circumstances, but is allowed in some circumstances. Therefore a Muslim eating pork to save their life is not contradicting the Quran/Islam.

Muslims that drink alcohol, are breaking an Islamic law. No contradiction there.

Muslims who choose a conventional mortgage against a more expensive mortgage labelled 'Islamic' but which in reality is just an interest bearing loan 'dressed up' is within the rules of Islam - as explained in that other thread. Again, no contradiction.

Over to you.. show me the propositions juxtaposed and explain to me how they are contradictory.

Cheers
Shafique

-- Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:26 pm --

Warning - long post:

patience wrote:Shafique you may well be a good Muslim but from personal experience in Dubai I have to say it is hard to ignore the fact that there are so many who do tend to pick and choose what to believe and when to believe.

I agree. I don't hide the fact that there are indeed many in Dubai and elsewhere that only pay lip service to their faith. This is certainly an issue within Islam - but also so in Judaism (I worked with Jewish people that ate pork etc), Catholicism, Hinduism etc. Human nature - I'm afraid.

So I agree with your observation and agree to live and let live:

patience wrote: These same failings I think apply to all religions in general and who am I to judge. Live and let live and let those deal with their own spiritual well being.

patience wrote: I think MY confusion comes from a lack of knowledge that maybe you can help me clear up. How as a 'good' Muslim do you feel about us non Muslims. Are we the enemy? Are we to be obliterated from the earth? Are you breaking any rules by befriending us and socialising with us? Or are we just to be pitied because we will not be saved and live our lives in a different way?

Good Muslims are instructed in the Quran to preach to all non-Muslims in a 'goodly way'. We need to act with justice to all (even if we aren't in positions of power, but especially if we are).

Non-Muslims are not the enemy. The Quran lays down the rules of war - and when an enemy is fighting you, you HAVE to stop when they make an offer of a truce/peace. You can only fight them if they are fighting you actively.

In non-war situations, non-Muslims are free to believe as they wish - 'there is no compulsion in religion' according to the Quran.

We are not allowed to fight people who aren't actively waging war or causing trouble. We do have an obligation to fight injustice.

At the end of the day, salvation comes from God's own Mercy and His Judgement on the Day of Judgement - we Muslims can't tell who will be saved, be it from Muslims or non-Muslims. That is God's prerogative.

We can socialise with non-Muslims - and God tells us in the Quran that when non-Muslims denigrate God or speak ill in general, we need to move away and then rejoin the conversation/company when they stop that topic of conversation. That's the extent of our displeasure that we can show for expressions against God/Islam etc. There is no punishment in Islam for blasphemy.

There are verses which say 'do not take unbelievers as friends' but this does not mean we can't socialise with them. This is illustrated in the life of the Prophet who entertained Christian delegations and even gave the Christians of Najran permission to hold their Sunday service in his mosque in Medina.

patience wrote: As I remember from being one of the only Catholics at a Catholic school I tended to be treated with kindness and sympathy by the nuns because obviously I was going straight to hell. I do not mean to start an argument or appear rude I am just genuinely interested in what your views are on this.

There is an interesting thread in the religion forum on the subject of who goes to hell. The Bible is quite clear - and the nun's views is indeed Biblical. The Quranic view is slightly different - God does not say ONLY Muslims go to Heaven - but explicitly says in 2.62 that Jews, Christians and Sabians who believe in God, the day of judgement and do good work will go to heaven (have nothing to fear in the after life).

patience wrote: Is tolerance of other religions preached at Mosques because alot of what we see and read is purely death to the infidel, if it is how and what are the moderate muslim community doing to combat the extremism that seems to be the public face of Islam.

A lot of what you read about and see isn't what is actually being preached.

The Quran actually contains instructions for Muslims to fight aggressors so that Churches, synagogues and temples are protected (and mentions mosques last). In the Egyptian revolution this spring - Muslims protected coptic churches (when in previous months some Muslims did firebomb some churches!)

patience wrote: Is there a conflict between say an Indonesian muslim and a British muslim or a Saudi muslim and a UAE muslim? Are your beliefs the same? similar? completely different? It is so hard to write something and not capture the tone of the conversation and I hope that you take this for what it is, a genuine attempt at understanding. Sorry lots of questions.

There are over 80 sects within Islam and there are a lot of sects who are fighting each other. The big split is between Shia and Sunni (think of this as like Roman Catholicism vs Protestants) and within each there are multiple sects (again as with Christianity).

My view is that Islam is going through its middle ages - and religion is being misused by many, in much the same way earlier religions were misused at the similar stage of their development.

Where we have an advantage, is that Islam has a Holy Scripture that all Muslims agree is the literal word of God and is unchanged from the time it was revealed (by word of mouth) - and that is what we can all refer to.

Cheers,
Shafique

Islam is not just a religion, Shaf, it is a creed, a doctrine and a policital mandate, a road map of existance per se, but then you know that don't you, but when it suits your purpose to define it to be one thing rather than an other you switch hats. All to divert and confuse.

The contradiction referred to herein is in the behaviour of those strictly observant Muslims IN (the Nation of) Islam, commonly referred to as 'Islam'. The same people who one weekend attend a public beheading because they are instructed to by an Imam, then drive to bars and clubs 1,200 miles away get drunk and pick up Hookers then return and get on with preaching the holier than thou message - that to be a supporter of their club makes them better than anyone else (!?)

What BM observed was a contradiction between being a Muslim, and being able to switch that off to indulge in copious amounts of un-muslim like behaviour. The circle is not square.

Please note that this does not in anyway suggest that you engage in such practices, just that those of us who have lived in muslim countries observe this trait so often, it is the norm, not the other way around.

Cheers

Ok - I see where the issue is. For me, Islam (by definition) is a religion.

In your alternative reality where it isn't, I can see how you can see valid contradictions in BMs observations.

In my reality, where Islam is a religion, there are no contradictions in the observations.

That said, I totally agree that there are indeed many, many examples of Muslims not following what Islam teaches. That's a fault of the Muslims and not the religion, I'd argue - but that's just my opinion.

Cheers,
Shafique

are we ever going to see quality posts in Df ?

not until your Mum bans you from the Internet again !

-- Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:11 pm --

From your response (Shafique) do we agree then that the area of misunderstanding stems (on both sides) from a lack of clarity on when Islam ceases to be a religion and becomes a political doctrine, (it has to be Islam because Christianity for the majority of Christians is little more than country club membership) ?

I will concede that there is little to no contradiction in the religion, but can't agree with religious political indoctrination and by extention contentious issues such as the application of Sharia over non muslims.

Cheers

The Quran is indeed full of contradictions, and al shafique has proven it.
rule A: XXXXX is forbiden
rule B: you can break a rule out of necessity
so if you want to do XXXXX, forget rule A, go by rule B
We know for a mortgage, we know for pork and prostitutes.
another contradiction here.
Mooslims are not allowed to drink wine, but....."heaven is full of rivers delicious to the drinkers".
Hey! al shafique do you have to shorten your earthly existence to get drunk, or are you going to use rule B for a Chardonnay with BM ?

al shafique, Islam is not a religion, it is an ideology that creates havoc, genocide and revolution wherever it grows and you know it. It is a political theocracy, Instead of assimilating into any society, Islam seeks to establish a state-within-a-state, to insinuate Sharia law into the existing system of law and expand it by degrees until it can consume it.
Muhammad’s declared at the Kaaba that all of Islam, anywhere in the world, to be a political and military state against all non-Muslims, regardless of the non-Muslims’ political, geographical, or national origins.
The Quran is the political manifesto of Islam, a totalitarian constitution. it is not a religion.

Viking - yes, I think we can agree that the misunderstandings stem from when Islam is perceived to be a political doctrine and not just a religion.

Islam does give guidelines on some social laws, but there is no one 'shariah' law - each political entity needs to make its laws and can choose how to implement laws found in the Quran if it wishes.

There is no 'Islamic' form of government proscribed - but rather instructions on how to behave for whoever is in power.

There certainly isn't a teaching in Islam that Muslims should conquer the world or wage war on unbelievers - indeed, the first Muslims found sanctuary under a Christian king and that country (Abyssinia/Ethiopia) was never attacked by Muslims.

How Muslims or Muslim governments or political parties choose to act towards other countries is a political decision. Historically we've had wars of conquest for territory - be it by the Ottomans or the earlier Islamic rulers - and we've had peaceful propagation of Islam without conquests - eg Indonesia and the Far East generally.

The religion of Islam - how one lives one's life and interacts with the spiritual and the temporal - is quite distinct from the politics. In that, I'm glad we agree, there are no contradictions.

Cheers,
Shafique

BM, interesting what you say about the Saudi's. They come to the UAE, Bahrain, Lebanon to escape the rigid laws in their own country. On a recent trip to Bahrain, I went to a bar and it was full of them, all drinking. The thing that shocked me, was that they were ashamed to admit to being from Saudi Arabia and from what I gathered it's the hardline religious police they have a problem with. They want the freedoms the rest of us have, they have aspirations to do great things, but in their country unemployment and drug use is horrifically high. For the most part, very lovely people. Don't forget however, that they are 'born' into that religion, they have no choice there.

^Saudi also has a problem with s.ex crimes - with even kids being abucted and raped, and because of the harsh laws, they are murdered. I was shocked when I first went to Saudi in 2003 and was told this - people used to not let the teenagers travel home from school alone because of this fear.

Saudi is a police state, and very oppressive.

Cheers,
Shafique

It's a shame, because the royal family are actually very liberal. The crown prince even employs women in many of the higher positions within his company.

uaekid wrote:are we ever going to see quality posts in Df ?

No, this place is full of arrogant ignorants who find full joy in attacking our Eastern culture, religion, lifestyle, and enjoy throwing ugly racist comments between lines, and find no shame in that at all.

Funny part is when they lecture you about morals/ethics, lol!!

Its a waste of time to try approach terms of understanding with them, as they'll always ask for more, and will never offer anything in return. They are free to attack anything related to you, but you're not allowed to attack back. They got 0% respect to us, specially when it comes to politics and religion.

Do they even got a purpose in life? Do we need to respect jerks?
They just got big mouths and loud voices, and like the common Middle Eastern saying goes..
"The barking of dogs never harmed the sky"

Sho rayek ya UAEkid, don't you agree?

Sym that is extremely harsh - I asked Shafique for explanations which he very kindly provided and as with all answers it has raised more questions for me. But my post was made with total respect and with a genuine curiosity. You are guilty of what you accuse ie tarring everyone with the same brush. I addressed my questions to Shafique as he seems to be open to peoples differing opinions and seems balanced and fair - UAE Kids posts do not and he seems to have the 'death to the infidel' air about him.

Walahi fikra mazboot ya sym.

symmetric wrote:

uaekid wrote:are we ever going to see quality posts in Df ?

No, this place is full of arrogant ignorants who find full joy in attacking our Eastern culture, religion, lifestyle, and enjoy throwing ugly racist comments between lines, and find no shame in that at all.

Funny part is when they lecture you about morals/ethics, lol!!

Its a waste of time to try approach terms of understanding with them, as they'll always ask for more, and will never offer anything in return. They are free to attack anything related to you, but you're not allowed to attack back. They got 0% respect to us, specially when it comes to politics and religion.

Do they even got a purpose in life? Do we need to respect jerks?
They just got big mouths and loud voices, and like the common Middle Eastern saying goes..
"The barking of dogs never harmed the sky"

Sho rayek ya UAEkid, don't you agree?

And in closing M'Lud I offer the above as a perfect example of how to brown nose an Emirati dullard ~ one can only expect that he next offer his sister in exchange for a lokal passport

Move on Sym and permit Shaf to build bridges that you can not even comprehend.

Prat

permit Shaf to build bridges that you can not even comprehend.

Shaf and sym, are our two resident anti-Semites and Europhobes.

shafique wrote:but explicitly says in 2.62 that Jews, Christians and Sabians who believe in God, the day of judgement and do good work will go to heaven (have nothing to fear in the after life).

Which Muslims interpret the Koran to mean that Christians and Jews of today who have heard the message of Islam and have not accepted Muhammad as a prophet will still enter Paradise?

patience - I think sym has lost patience with the resident Islamophobes that aren't as respectful as you when asking questions about Islam, but rather seek to preach to Muslims what Islam is according to their agenda.

I'm happy to answer your questions and I'm sure sym isn't referring to your enquiry - and if he is, he should apologise/clarify.

I'm also glad that you asked for clarification and that I was able to make clear my views.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:patience - I think sym has lost patience with the resident Islamophobes that aren't as respectful as you when asking questions about Islam, but rather seek to preach to Muslims what Islam is according to their agenda.

I'm happy to answer your questions and I'm sure sym isn't referring to your enquiry - and if he is, he should apologise/clarify.

I'm also glad that you asked for clarification and that I was able to make clear my views.

Cheers,
Shafique

This is coming from someone who wanted to tell Christians how to interpret the Bible.

Seriously?

Coming from someone who invents a new religion to explain his bizare interpretation of Biblical passages, that's the height of irony!

I don't presume to preach to Christians how they interpret the Bible - but I do share my views of Jesus' original teachings and why I side with the 'Jewish Christians' in their interpretations.

But, hey - why let facts get in the way of spin, eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

Coming from someone who invents a new religion to explain his bizare interpretation of Biblical passages, that's the height of irony!

Who previously claimed Jews and Christians only need faith and good works to reach Paradise?

but I do share my views of Jesus' original teachings and why I side with the 'Jewish Christians' in their interpretations.

Sure, just don't confuse a saying of Jesus to a letter by James.

But I'd be curious to know what these are and how you 'side' with Jewish Christians.

More fantasies eh?

Why not address the real questions posed in the religion forum rather than trying in vain to prove patience wrong?

patience told us in this thread that nuns considered non-Christians as being hell bound (or was it non-Catholics? ) - and yet you have come up with a new theory that Hindus are 'damned' and 'condemned' but aren't going to hell. I'm still intrigued to what this new religion you've invented is called - and why you use the Bible as a scripture.

Cheers,
Shafique

patience wrote:Sym that is extremely harsh - I asked Shafique for explanations which he very kindly provided and as with all answers it has raised more questions for me. But my post was made with total respect and with a genuine curiosity. You are guilty of what you accuse ie tarring everyone with the same brush. I addressed my questions to Shafique as he seems to be open to peoples differing opinions and seems balanced and fair - UAE Kids posts do not and he seems to have the 'death to the infidel' air about him.

Patience, unfortunately, not all people are as decent as you are. And I wasn't pointing my finger at everyone, rather on a specific group of people who knows themselves very well.

Not all people are willing to approach peaceful terms of communication. For those who know me in real life, they know I'm too far away from being a harsh and hostile, but I've become fed up of the huge amount of hostility, hatred, and attacks on whatever is related to my Eastern culture, society, heritage, and religion.

I tried many times to clarrify some misconceptions, but nothing is good enough for them, and I couldn't careless anymore what they think or about my behavior in the forums, as I don't take anything seriously in this online forum after seeing the extreme amount of hypocrisy from some people who'd lecture me, you and the entire world on ethics/morals, while they lack the basic meanings of ethical codes.

My apologies to those decent ones, and the rest may rotten in their filthy thoughts

Sure Symmetric blame it on others that you want to kill the jews.

Whatever next. Those calling you out on it are the hostile ones?

symmetric wrote:

patience wrote:Sym that is extremely harsh - I asked Shafique for explanations which he very kindly provided and as with all answers it has raised more questions for me. But my post was made with total respect and with a genuine curiosity. You are guilty of what you accuse ie tarring everyone with the same brush. I addressed my questions to Shafique as he seems to be open to peoples differing opinions and seems balanced and fair - UAE Kids posts do not and he seems to have the 'death to the infidel' air about him.

Patience, unfortunately, not all people are as decent as you are. And I wasn't pointing my finger at everyone, rather on a specific group of people who knows themselves very well.

Not all people are willing to approach peaceful terms of communication. For those who know me in real life, they know I'm too far away from being a harsh and hostile, but I've become fed up of the huge amount of hostility, hatred, and attacks on whatever is related to my Eastern culture, society, heritage, and religion.

I tried many times to clarrify some misconceptions, but nothing is good enough for them, and I couldn't careless anymore what they think or about my behavior in the forums, as I don't take anything seriously in this online forum after seeing the extreme amount of hypocrisy from some people who'd lecture me, you and the entire world on ethics/morals, while they lack the basic meanings of ethical codes.

My apologies to those decent ones, and the rest may rotten in their filthy thoughts

LOL There speaks the person who writes death to all Jews! The rest os us have got some way to go before we can match your sentiments Sym! You really need to look at your past work before you pass judgement on anyone.

well well well, i've been away for quite some time, and now that i'm back, i see nothing has changed.

how is everyone doing? good to be back