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Kung and I have the same interpretation of what 'all merciful' means.

You are the only one here with tali-tubby views who think it is ok to enslave virgins for one's use, after slaughtering their families in cold blood - as long as you are an Israelite and you think God wants you to do it.

That's you, my friend, not me.

Cheers,
Shafique

I disagree - after leafing through the online copy, it is clear that Kung does not believe that the Koran should be applied literally.

Kung does not believe that thieves should have their hands chopped off, etc. Kung, although I don't remember reading it specifically, does not support polygamy/concubinage - which he says are both allowed in Islam.

Kung also says that Muslims should not claim that Muhammad was morally perfect since, as Kung says, there are numerous recorded instances where Muhammad's actions are not compatible with modern morality/ethics - such as the two examples of Muhammad breaking treaties, Muhammad causing violence, Muhammad marrying nearly a dozen wives at once, and so on.

So, what Kung does believe is not what you claim he believes. Kung does not say that Allah loves disbelievers/sinners. Yes, the Koran does describe allah as merciful. But, as we have already seen, allah's mercy only boils down to allah providing favors for those who believe in him.

In other words, as Dr. Craig correctly points out, allah only loves those who love him back. Allah is morally deficient.

I agree that there are points I disagree with Kung about.

However, the point on whether Muhammad, pbuh, worshipped the same God as Moses and Jesus - we totally agree - it is the same God. Kung considers Muhammad, pbuh, a true prophet of this one God.
Eg:

..
But may a Christian assert that Muhammad was a prophet? Christians, if they pause to survey the situation, must admit the following (especially in light of the Hebrew Bible):

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad did not function by reason of an office assigned to him by the community (or its authorities), but by reason of a special personal relationship with God.

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad was a person of strong will who felt himself fully imbued with a godly calling, fully consumed, exclusively appointed to his task.

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad spoke to the heart of a religious and social crisis, and with his passionate piety and revolutionary proclamation he opposed the wealthy ruling class and the tradition it was trying to preserve.

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad, who mostly called himself the “Warner”, sought to be nothing but the verbal instrument of God and to proclaim not his own, but God’s word.

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad untiringly proclaimed the one God who tolerates no other gods and who is at the same time the good Creator and merciful Judge.

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad required, as a response to this one God, unconditional obedience, devotion, submission, which is the literal meaning of word Islam: everything that includes gratitude to God and generosity toward fellow human beings.

Like the prophets of Israel, Muhammad combined monotheism with humanism or human values, belief in the one God and God’s judgment with a call to social justice, and a threat to the unjust, who go to hell, with promises to the just, who are gathered into God’s paradise.
...

I think for the peoples of Arabia Muhammad’s prophecy led to tremendous progress. Whatever we Christians do with this fact, we must affirm that he acted as a prophet and that he was a prophet. I do not see how we can avoid the conclusion that on their way of salvation, Muslims follow a prophet who is decisive for them.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives ... a-prophet/

We also agree on the attributes of the one God are unchanging. One of them is 'Rahman' - the God who loves all creation.

Where you and I disagree, eh, is on what I view as extreme religious fanaticism:

shafique wrote:You are the only one here with tali-tubby views who think it is ok to enslave virgins for one's use, after slaughtering their families in cold blood - as long as you are an Israelite and you think God wants you to do it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nice spin. There's nothing in the Koran that you have provided that shows that allah loves all of creation.

Even if you were to provide a single verse - and you have not, all that would prove is that the Koran contains more contradictions.

Ah, so - apart from the word 'Rahman' in the Quran there's nothing in the Quran that says God of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad loves all creation. Hmm.

Interesting interpretation. Have you or Craig persuaded anyone else of this quaint view?

Cheers,
Shafique

Sure, if you conflate mercy with 'allah loves disbelievers'.

In any event, we already know that allah has a warped view of mercy - chopping off hands is not all merciful, for instance. So, allah's mercy has some pretty narrow bounds.

I must say, this is a pretty desperate attempt to show that allah loves disbelievers - especially if you ignore the passages in the Koran where allah says that he does *not* love disbelievers/sinners.

So, do you concede that koran does not say that allah loves disbelievers and, in fact, the koran is clear that allah dislikes disbelievers?

shafique wrote:
Interesting interpretation. Have you or Craig persuaded anyone else of this quaint view?

I think it is a valid question. Did you miss it first time round?

You didn't watch the debate between Dr. Craig and Jamal Badawi, I take it.

I take it the answer to my question is 'No, I can't find another person who agrees with me and Craig'?

I'm sure there are some here who may agree - try Chev for example.

I will stick with Hans Kung's view that there is only one God - the same one Muhammad, Jesus and Moses prayed to.

Cheers
Shafique

Do you agree or disagree with the Koran that allah does not love disbelievers?

I disagree with you and Craig - and agree with Kung that God is the same and that He loves all creation I including sinners.

If God is the same, then His attributes did not change from when Jesus was praying to God to when Muhammad did the same.

God whilst loving all creation also diapproves of acts that hurt his creations. A mother will tell a child that she will not like children who misbehave or play with fire - ultimately to prevent them from hurting thmselves.

God says in the first verse of the Quran that He loves all creation - this is His attribute of Rahman.

QED

Shafique

God whilst loving all creation also diapproves of acts that hurt his creations. A mother will tell a child that she will not like children who misbehave or play with fire - ultimately to prevent them from hurting thmselves.

LoL.

No, I've never heard a mother (or anyone else) say that they will not like/love a person if they do something that person does not like.

From my experience, the mother would say that she does not like their actions. For example, 'I don't like it when you do this'.

But I've never heard a mother say, 'ok, you're playing with fire, now I don't love you'. !!!!

Perhaps you should read what you just wrote.

bump for shafique - why does allah not love disbelievers?

shafique wrote:I disagree with you and Craig - and agree with Kung that God is the same and that He loves all creation I including sinners.

If God is the same, then His attributes did not change from when Jesus was praying to God to when Muhammad did the same.

God whilst loving all creation also diapproves of acts that hurt his creations. A mother will tell a child that she will not like children who misbehave or play with fire - ultimately to prevent them from hurting thmselves.

God says in the first verse of the Quran that He loves all creation - this is His attribute of Rahman.

QED

Shafique

Do you need to look up what QED stands for?

I said that I agree with you. For Muslims relying on the Koran, their conception of allah is incomplete. Muslims must read the NT to appreciate a morally perfect God that does not dislike sinners/disbelievers.

That is why the NT quite rightly says that God is love.

shafique wrote:

shafique wrote:I disagree with you and Craig - and agree with Kung that God is the same and that He loves all creation I including sinners.

If God is the same, then His attributes did not change from when Jesus was praying to God to when Muhammad did the same.

God whilst loving all creation also diapproves of acts that hurt his creations. A mother will tell a child that she will not like children who misbehave or play with fire - ultimately to prevent them from hurting thmselves.

God says in the first verse of the Quran that He loves all creation - this is His attribute of Rahman.

QED

Shafique

Do you need to look up what QED stands for?

Another post that could be deleted - quoting yourself, no less.

In any event - can you confirm that there is no passage in the Koran where allah says that he loves disbelievers or sinners?

I'll take your non-answer as confirmation that there is no passage which says that.

That would also have to ignore the contradictory passages in the Koran where allah is clear that he does *not* love disbelievers and sinners.

Anyways, I have to repeat my earlier claim that I have never heard someone who is truly loving tell another person (especially a child) that they will no longer love that person anymore if they do not do what that someone wants out of them.

To me, that was the entire point Dr. Craig was making. Thank you for encapsulating Dr. Craig's previous point by using an analogy of a mother who tells her children that she will no longer love them if they do not do or believe what she tells them to.

The fact that you used such an analogy, tells me that you, also, have an imperfect and incomplete understanding of morality and that this understanding comes from what the Koran says - that one should not unconditionally love others.

Yes, I posted many times that the first verse of the Quran states that God is Rahman - i.e. that He loves all creation.

Hence my QED in my previous post.


I also agree with Kung et al that there is only one God - that of Muhammad, Moses and Jesus - and therefore His attributes are the same.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Yes, I posted many times that the first verse of the Quran states that God is Rahman - i.e. that He loves all creation.

Hence my QED in my previous post.


I also agree with Kung et al that there is only one God - that of Muhammad, Moses and Jesus - and therefore His attributes are the same.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, unfortunately the Koran defines allah's mercy (as William Lane Craig already pointed out in this thread previously) - the examples provided from the Koran prove that allah is merciful only to those who love him.

BTW, thanks for bringing the arguments from this thread back up again.

It's good for Muslims and non-Muslims alike to learn that allah's love is conditional and that many humans are morally more perfect than the god of Islam.

Repeating your belief that God does not love all creation does not make it any stronger - just shows your desperation to believe the loon spin about Islam.

Rahman applies to all creation - God loves all creation.

You seem to think that God telling us the consequences of our actions is tantamount to a punishment, when it is merely an act of love - a warning that we may suffer if we choose actions that can harm us.

You have to go through some impressive logic sommersaults to spin this warning issued out of love as an act of cruelty or bizarely an argument for God's conditional love.

Cheers,
Shafique

So we should ignore what allah clearly says in the Koran and listen to your fanciful spin about who allah loves:

Koran 3:32 wrote:Say: 'Obey God, and the Messenger.' But if they turn their backs, God loves not the unbelievers.

Koran 2:98 wrote:Whosoever is an enemy to God and His angels and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael - surely God is an enemy to the unbelievers.'

I've provided concrete examples of what allah's mercy really boils down to - if you love allah (obey, believe in him) then allah will love you back.

So far you've only repeated a claim that al-Rahman translates to loving all of creation (even though you haven't supported such a definition).

That's nothing more than a truth-advertising-problem since people have different conceptions of what words mean. The Koran helpfully defines what mercy actually translates to and we can cite these verses to learn how merciful or how loving allah actually is.

So far, you have been unable to provide a single verse that shows that allah really loves all of mankind - including unbelievers and sinners.

You quoted me stating that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus and therefore His attributes are the same. Given that Prof Kung maintains that this is true - why haven't you addressed this point?

Rahman is God's attribute and applies to all creation.

As I said, I choose Kung's conclusions over your weird and discredited arguments about the loon interpretations of Islam.

Should you not address the questions about the Bible instead of ressurecting threads and presenting no new evidence? Or perhaps this is just smoke and mirrors to hide your embarrassment in the talking donkeys thread?

Cheers
Shafique

You quoted me stating that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus and therefore His attributes are the same. Given that Prof Kung maintains that this is true - why haven't you addressed this point?

Is this an argument ? LoL.

Rahman is God's attribute and applies to all creation.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. See WLC's arguments (and quotations from the Koran) that allah does not love those who do not love him back.

As I said, I choose Kung's conclusions over your weird and discredited arguments about the loon interpretations of Islam.

Let me know where you have 'discredited' the quotes from the Koran that allah does not love disbelievers, does not love sinners.

Allah only loves those who love him.

Yes, I do believe that Kung's clear conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus trumps your weird argument that God does not love everyone according to loon interpretations of the Quran.

I see no attempt to dispute the conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the God Jesus prayed to, and therefore your whole argument is based on a loon interpretation.

Such as it always was.

Cheers,
Shafique

Eh, As babies we are born sinless and pure, a child born to a Muslim family is no different than a child born to a pagan or Christian family. Everyone of us is born the same way with the same creator with the same patent rights on us which makes belief in one single creator is actually inherent in every one of us.

So until we each reach adulthood god loves us all “unconditionally” (means if we die before adulthood, our place will be the heaven) only because we become accountable after reaching adulthood provided that we are not mentally handicapped.

God is Ar-rahman, al-wahhaab, ar-razzaaq…becouse when he wills us to become a human being in this universe which is out of his love and passion to create, he doesn’t ask our consent..
For his will/love and passion to continue (just like parents’) requires one to be a continues provider and sustainer until death, like parents/animals do until kids leave home or get married and so on. So within this concept, if someone is a disbeliever or believer will make no difference as long as we show some sort of effort to work and stay alive.

I would only say that god is unfair to dislike disbelievers (after adulthood), if only he didn’t give us “free will” as a birth right- which means, instead of leaving us to decide on matters, he would do it himself right from the beginning as he favours, i.e takes sides for some people to be born acting disbeliever and some as believers. Just like when we manufacture certain type of machines to perform certain tasks.. But this is not the case everyone chooses what to believe or disbelieve at certain times of their life(sometimes chancing minds as well), this can only happen within the presence of a mind power and memory to produce intelligence and wisdom to initiate our choices, hence why we have free will..

Even after our adulthood , if our choice is to stay a disbeliever, he will still continue to remain rahman, wahhaab, razzaaq and haleem for 1- he didn’t ask our consent to be created, 2- in the hope that one day due to some sort of reason or for prayers for guidance that we will change our course of actions and become a true believer, God gives us everyone the opportunity as he is Al-Haleem,As-Sabur, means patient enough to grant us respite, so that we use, available knowledge, experience, intellectual capacity and free will to make up our final decision until our abilities start to decline..

The problem only starts when we start to neglect and treat our free will wrongfully otherwise if we stay pure (without external causes to contaminate our nature and toughts) our belief in single creator is inherent and with the help of education and personal will to posses knowledge, everyone is bound to find the right path.

8. Al-Haleem (The Most Forebearing)
http://www.godnames.org/godnames.php?f=SiteMap

shafique wrote:Yes, I do believe that Kung's clear conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Moses and Jesus trumps your weird argument that God does not love everyone according to loon interpretations of the Quran.

I see no attempt to dispute the conclusion that the God of Muhammad is the God Jesus prayed to, and therefore your whole argument is based on a loon interpretation.

Such as it always was.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, but what does the 'complete' Koran say ?

I wouldn't think one would need to consult the corrupted and abrogated texts of other religions to learn whether or not allah loves disbelievers.

Yes.. so if the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the same God of Jesus according to Prof Hans Kung - a Christian theologian, then your whole argument has been shot to pieces.

He's aware of what the Bible says God's attributes are and concludes that the God of the Quran is one and the same.

God loves all creation - only loons seem to have a weird way of looking at scripture, it seems.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hey, I just thought it was a weak argument that Muslims must consult the texts of other religious books to better understand 'allah'.

I take it this as your concession that the Koran does not contain any passage where allah says he loves unbelievers or sinners.

I know - it is very embarrassing for you when the loon theories are exposed as just that - fantastical loon theories.

You can't run away from the fact that your theory has been blown out of the water by Prof Kung who concludes that the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the same God of Jesus - and therefore has the same attributes.

Repeating your discredited loon notions of Islam won't change this simple fact - so it is no surprise you don't even address this simple, fundamental point.

Punked. Comprehensively. Again.

Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, I've been punked.

I've shown, by quoting the Koran, that allah does not love disbelievers and sinners.

Your brilliant argument is 'but what does the Bible say!'.

Yeah, I'm the one who has been punked.

I know you think you know more about the Bible and Quran than Prof Hans Kung and wish to stick to your loon interpretation, but unfortunately for you your inability to counter the knock-out blow to your argument is most telling.

The God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the God of Jesus and therefore all your posturing and interpretations are blown out of the water.

I fully expect you'll just go and dig out another Memri video or Loon argument and try again... yes, I see you've done that in the politics section. Loons are nothing, if not predictable.

(BTW, we're still waiting to hear your answer about talking Donkeys)

Cheers,
Shafique