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I smell more than whiff of hypocrisy here.

FD digs out a 14 year old report and expects Muslims to not condemn the treatment of Kurds.

The facts are that the Kurd homeland was divded between Turkey, Iraq and Syria by western powers. Nato was complicit in allowing Turkey to bomb Kurds freely in the no-fly-zone - and the west stood by when Sadaam gassed kurds- all more recently than the events in the report.

Muslims are quite capable of denouncing all injustices - whereas the fanbois object and name call when israel's crimes are discussed.

Good attempt though - only 14 years old

Cheers
Shafique

Fascinating views - now, can you tell me if these racist laws are still in existence?

I'm interested in finding out too - good question eh. FD - you seem to be the resident expert on Syrian abuses, can you answer?

I'm happy to just condemn all abuses as they are mentioned - doesn't matter to me who is carrying them out - current day Syrian abuses should indeed be highlighted - I wouldn't want them to think that all the attention is only on its neighbour.

Cheers,
Shafique

How could this be? I thought you were keeping up with those oppressed minorities facing racial discrimination?

Moreover, couldn't you check the BBC to find a story on this? I mean, I would imagine racial discrimination like this would be covered on a weekly basis by some journalist crusading for justice (or an axe to grind). Or at least in an oped column - with all those angry leftists/Muslims voicing their opinions of the injustices the Kurds face - because, they 'really' care about human rights for all.

Really, they do.

You may not have noticed, but Israel's cover ups keep me busy, as do fanbois denying the facts over Gaza truces etc.



Anyway, I'm glad that you've undergone a damascene conversion and are now (belatedly?) joining me in championing the cause of those oppressed people in the region. We'll let FD enlighten us as to how the Kurds are doing - I'm really only aware of the more recent injustices committed against them by Turkey and Iraq (and especially the Turkish attacks which took place with the apparent connivance of NATO).

Oh - or perhaps you were more interested in condemning Syria only for what they did in the 60's? I'm happy to join you in that condemnation, but surely you'll join me in speaking out against all injustices against Kurds, Palestinians etc?

Cheers,
Shafique

You may not have noticed, but Israel's cover ups keep me busy, as do fanbois denying the facts over Gaza truces etc.

Ok, maybe if you have some spare time from posting on DF and other important stuff, you can check up on those Kurds.

You know, if you're not too busy.

You really must spend some more time brushing up on your comprehension skills.

I have indeed been posting about the fate of the Kurds - I posted when Turkey bombed Kurds with the complicity of Nato, for example. I also was posting about Saddam's treatment of the Kurds before it was fashionable to denounce Saddam.

Please try and keep up.

It is FD that has brought up events which took place 50 years ago, and this is something I'm not aware of and I'm happy for him to inform us further and give us updates. (And, given this happened before I was born - I could hardly be blamed for not speaking up at the time. The best I can do is denounce it when it is mentioned here - which I've done. Compare and contrast with the excuses fanbois raise when Israel's real crimes are mentioned.)

I'm not surprised that your crocodile tears for Kurds have been exposed and you were more interested in scoring points and/or diverting attention away from your unanswered questions.

Cheers,
Shafique

I agree you pay the mandatory lip service for the Kurds whenever their treatment is highlighted by non-Muslims (which, to be fair, is not very often - but hey, I guess non-Muslims can make a point so many times before we tire of having it fly past your head).

I was just wondering why you were not aware if these racist laws in Syria are still enforced because you probably keep up with the news - and the news must have kept up with the Kurds over the years, right?

(perhaps you must have missed all of those BBC news stories and UN resolutions on the Kurds)

shafique wrote: but Israel's cover ups keep me busy

That the understatement of the year.

Ahh, there I was thinking you were going to actually give us an update and join me in condemning the more recent attacks against Kurds by Iraq and Turkey. I've no issue in condemning something that happened 50 years ago and was mentioned in a 14 year old report - and thought (perhaps optimistically) that you'd come round to my point of view that we should speak up for minorities who are being oppressed - regardless of what religion they or their oppressors have!

So, when Nato helped Turkey with their bombing raids on Kurds - was that because they were being good Muslims? Or perhaps you think the Quran says it is ok to bomb other Muslims just as long as they belong to different tribes?

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting diversionary tactic on Turkey (I sometimes forget that Muslims aren't independent moral actors and others need to be blamed for their actions) - but what does this have to do with the racist laws of the Syrian government?

Oh - and have you found a UN resolution or BBC article clarifying whether Kurds can indeed legally speak their ancestral language in the state of Syria?

How is it diversionary to point out I spoke out against Kurds being killed by Turkish airplanes when it happened, but wasn't around when the events in FD's report from 14 years ago happened in the 60's?

You may have missed the fact I condemned the injustices against the Kurds in Syria, and invited you to join me in condemning the more recent injustices against Kurds in Iraq and Turkey (by Saddam and Turkey/Nato). In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed!

Just because Israeli fanbois excuse Israeli injustices does not mean I will condone injustices committed against Muslims that are committed by Syria, Turkey, Nato or Saddam. Perhaps you think that everyone who opposes Israel must therefore support Syria/Iran/North Korea? That would be yet another (very) quaint and queer belief.

Right now, I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that pointing out that Nato has aided Turkey to kill Kurds is excusing what Syria did 50 years ago? I can't see how - I'm just pointing out that if you are really interested in the welfare of Kurds, you'll join me in also condemning the more recent acts against them.

We can wait for FD to snap out of his sarcastic mood and answer your question about whether the laws are still in place. (Perhaps he didn't realise his quote was from a 14 year old report and related to events in the 60s?)

But I do hope you will join me in sticking up for the Muslim Kurds. My solution is quite simple - let them have their homeland. What's your view?

Cheers,
Shafique

but wasn't around when the events in FD's report from 14 years ago happened in the 60's?

Poor reading comprehension problems at work again. The report doesn't say that banning the Kurdish language was a relic from the 60s - just that twenty percent of Syria's Kurdish population were stripped of their citizenship after a census in the sixties (although Kurdish may also have been banned back then too).

The talk of the Kurdish language being banned in Syria was in regards to the present (and a simple google search confirms this).

So either this is a case of your poor reading skills or you simply did not read FD's article?

Which is it, poor reading skills or not reading linked articles - a or b?

(by Saddam and Turkey/Nato). In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed!

Well, I would have to see evidence that NATO killed Kurdish civilians. Is this another of your quaint beliefs, such as Jesus was a speaker in the epistle of James or Muslims are attacked more often than Jews and Christians in the West?

you'll join me in also condemning the more recent acts against them.

Well, the article was printed fourteen years ago and the Kurdish language is still banned to this day in Syria, what more recent acts against the Kurds would you like me to condemn instead?

My solution is quite simple - let them have their homeland. What's your view?

Kurds already have somewhat of a de facto homeland (as this article explains) in northern Iraq, and in comparison to the rest of the region, it is actually prosperous.

Your argument seems to be with Kurds themselves, who more and more, are accepting the realities of the world and would rather work with Turkey on obtaining equal rights rather than create a mini-state within Turkey - something that would never happen and that Iraqi Kurdish leaders do not support for pragmatic reasons.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll ... 19960/1080

What part of my statement condemning the Syrian actions and asking you to join me in condemning the more recent acts against the Kurds by Turkey and Iraq confused you dear boy?

So, you are ok with Kurds living in Iraq having a de-facto homeland (so am I) - but what about the parts of Kurdistan that are in Syria and Turkey? I guess you perhaps think the Kurds in Turkey aren't complaining about human rights abuses? I guess you are also unaware that the Kurds are hardly 'accepting reality' and are still advocating for a homeland (and being branded, predictably, as terrorists by Turkey).

There has a been an armed insurgency in Turkey for the past 20 years or so, Turkey bans any political parties whose aim is seperatism (and hence have banned several Kurdish parties) etc etc.

It appears reality and your understanding of the situation about Kurdish nationalism in Turkey is as accurate as your knowledge of Islam. (You seemed to be arguing that Kurds in Turkey are 'accepting reality' and not advocating for an independent homeland - or perhaps you'll claim I misunderstood you?? )

As for Nato complicity in the bombing of Kurds by Turkey - I suggest you just do a Google, I can't really spoon feed you all the time.

Cheers,
Shafique

I can see you're not reading the links provided. Disappointed but not surprised.

You seemed to be arguing that Kurds in Turkey are 'accepting reality' and not advocating for an independent homeland - or perhaps you'll claim I misunderstood you??

Please follow rule number one. If you're still confused, click the link already provided. If you're still confused.....

As for Nato complicity in the bombing of Kurds by Turkey - I suggest you just do a Google, I can't really spoon feed you all the time.

I take it you don't have evidence that NATO killed Kurdish civilians (AMNT), which is what you claimed here:

shafique wrote:(by Saddam and Turkey/Nato). In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed!

shafique wrote:What part of my statement condemning the Syrian actions and asking you to join me in condemning the more recent acts against the Kurds by Turkey and Iraq confused you dear boy?
....
As for Nato complicity in the bombing of Kurds by Turkey - I suggest you just do a Google, I can't really spoon feed you all the time.

Did Google let you down dear boy?

Ok, let me help you with some reading material.

First, let us start with the actions of Turkey against Kurds within Turkey - see, this for some background (including articles from western media, and references to Nato complicity in these actions - primarily support):
http://www.haroldpinter.org/politics/po ... urds.shtml

Here's an article from Washington Post:
http://www.kurdistan.org/Washington/lostkurd.html

And here's the coup de grace:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200103190010

Pilots patrolling the so-called no-fly zone in the north of the country have spoken angrily about how they have been ordered to return to their base in Turkey in order to allow the Turkish air force to bomb the Kurds in Iraq - the very people the British are meant to be "protecting".

The pilots say that, whenever the Turkish air force wants to launch attacks on the Kurds, the Turks are recalled to base and their radar is switched so that the targets will not be visible. One British pilot reported seeing the devastation caused by the attacks when he resumed his patrol.

You can take a horse to water...

Cheers,
Shafique


Cheers,
Shafique

I guess you don't have evidence that NATO killed Kurdish civilians as you previously claimed:

shafique wrote:(by Saddam and Turkey/Nato). In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed!

In the latter, Kurdish civilians were killed! By whom? By Turkey/NATO.

what did I say about taking a horse to water!

Did you even click on the links in my previous post? The last article is the most damning - but it appears you aren't actually interested in the Kurds after all, but rather want to exonerate Nato/Turkey and only blame Syria.

Let me quote to you what is on Harold Pinter's page, taken from a 1999 article in 'The Guardian':

It's the same old story. Since Iraq and Iran are "anti-Western" regimes, the Kurds in those countries are described as victims, or - if they resist - freedom fighters. Since Turkey is a member of Nato, and a "loyal ally" the Turkish Kurds are described as terrorists.

This issue is not simply a queation of what is happening to the Kurds but also of what is happening to freedom of expression and independent thought. Something has been occurring beneath our very noses in Turkey for years: many thousands of people confront substantial and persistent persecution and yet we read little about it in the press and our Government is silent while trade with Turkey flourishes.

(BTW - I just want to check, you do know that Turkey is a member of NATO don't you? This is an obvious point, and I would have imagined you'd know this fact)

Cheers,
Shafique

Sure - I'm aware that Turkey is a NATO member. That's why Turkey is/was in Afghanistan from the beginning after combat operations ended. But are you now saying that Turkey's crackdown on Kurdish rebels was really a NATO operation?

Or perhaps you're now trying to obfuscate the facts after you can't support your previous claim that NATO killed Kurdish civilians?

Oh and please let me know how this ties in with Syria's racist laws (and note that Turkey no longer bans the Kurdish language). Surely you have some up-to-date news articles/UN resolutions pertaining to the racist laws of the state of Syria?

I'm glad you did after all know Turkey was part of NATO, I assumed you did - but wanted to be sure.

So, what is your problem now?

You can't see the link between Kurds being oppressed in Syria 50 years ago and Turkey doing more oppressive things to Kurds more recently (not least bombing the Kurds NOT living in Turkey, let alone those who live within Turkey)?


Can I ask you to just post where you think I said that Nato killed civilians - I just recall saying that Nato was complicit in Turkey's bombing raids on Kurds, and I gave you the evidence - quotes from RAF pilots who were supposed to be patrolling the no-fly-zone to protect the Kurds. NATO let Turkish airplanes bomb and kill civilians in Kurdish parts of Iraq. QED.


It is very interesting to note that whilst I did not hestitate to condemn Syrias actions against Kurds, you are wriggling and squirming when it is pointed out that Kurds have been oppressed and killed more recently by Turkey and Saddam (both with the tacit blessing of the west - and certainly no official condmenations at the time)

Cheers,
Shafique

My bad - I thought the title of this thread would be of a discussion on Syria.

Funny how I should have known that this would turn into a Turkey (blame the West) discussion.

Anywho, seems that Kurdish oppression in Syria is ongoing - since the Kurdish language appears to be banned from a quick google search. Anyways, I would like you to find a few BBC articles and UN whatevers addressing this very important issue, so we can gauge how much attention the Kurds really receive (you say they receive a lot of press, I'll wait to look at the results before I form an opinion).

Can I ask you to just post where you think I said that Nato killed civilians - I just recall saying that Nato was complicit in Turkey's bombing raids on Kurds, and I gave you the evidence - quotes from RAF pilots who were supposed to be patrolling the no-fly-zone to protect the Kurds. NATO let Turkish airplanes bomb and kill civilians in Kurdish parts of Iraq. QED.

Too bad that NATO wasn't involved in the no-fly-zone that your article is referring to (which should highlight how much you really have followed this issue on the Kurds). The RAF pilots (who were probably stationed in Turkey and, therefore, would have taken Ankara's orders) were not under NATO command - this was a British/American venture.

Secondly, your article says that the Kurdish language was banned at the time of the article's publication in 2001. A quick google search reveals that the Kurdish language was banned in Turkey until 1991 after there was a let up in violence between the Turkish government and Kurdish rebels when the Turkish president, of Kurdish descent, removed the ban on speaking/publishing in Kurdish.

So, it looks like you're back to where you started at. Perhaps you can check out if Turkish planes used NATO airfields during the eighties, as I seem to recall, but I don't see any other evidence that 'NATO/Turkey' killed Kurdish civilians.

AMNT?

So you are a fan of Turkey as well as Israel - who would have known!

So, are you saying it was only Brits and Yanks who colluded with Turkey when she bombed Kurds in Iraq? Fair enough, happy to be corrected in using the term 'Nato' when I should have used UK and US. Happy now?

But I'm surprised at your 'supposition' - you are imagining that the RAF/USAF was under the control of Turkey. I suppose this is another of your wild fantasies and it would be futile to ask what you base this 'supposition' on! US and UK bases in Turkey aren't under the control of Turkey. Duh.

Are you really arguing that Turkey ( a member of Nato) did NOT bomb Kurdish villages or invade Northern Iraq and kill Kurds, including civilians? (This would be some serious revision and denial)

I just thought you'd support Kurdish nationalists who have been oppressed rather than just opposed only what Syria did/does. I condemned Syrias activities against Kurds and thought you'd join me in more recent oppression -but I guess you pick and choose who you condemn depending on some other criteria (other than whether they actually oppress/kill etc).

Cheers,
Shafique

So eh, perhaps you can give us your views on the information in this link, detailing how the US have let down Kurds in the past (it gives specific examples, and the events took place after the changes in law in Syria - so are more recent) :

http://revcom.us/a/1226/lvexcerpt.htm

Cheers,
Shafique

Fascinating views, but again, what does this have to do with the *current* racist laws against Kurds living in Syria?

Could you also supply me with numerous news articles (preferably from the BBC, CNN or other major news networks) to show that others were indeed highlighting the discrimination that Kurds experience(d) in Syria *after* it became fashionable to do so?

shafique wrote:So you are a fan of Turkey as well as Israel - who would have known!

So, are you saying it was only Brits and Yanks who colluded with Turkey when she bombed Kurds in Iraq? Fair enough, happy to be corrected in using the term 'Nato' when I should have used UK and US. Happy now?

But I'm surprised at your 'supposition' - you are imagining that the RAF/USAF was under the control of Turkey. I suppose this is another of your wild fantasies and it would be futile to ask what you base this 'supposition' on! US and UK bases in Turkey aren't under the control of Turkey. Duh.

Are you really arguing that Turkey ( a member of Nato) did NOT bomb Kurdish villages or invade Northern Iraq and kill Kurds, including civilians? (This would be some serious revision and denial)

I just thought you'd support Kurdish nationalists who have been oppressed rather than just opposed only what Syria did/does. I condemned Syrias activities against Kurds and thought you'd join me in more recent oppression -but I guess you pick and choose who you condemn depending on some other criteria (other than whether they actually oppress/kill etc).

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought it was Saddam that bombed and gassed the Kurds in Iraq or am i just being a nob?

Nope, you're not being a nob.

Saddam bombed and gassed the Kurds before he became the West's bad guy (i.e. before he started selling oil in Euros and looking like becoming a strong regional leader to challenge Israel's strength in the region - he was just as bad a dictator when he was 'our strong man in the region')

The Turkish bombing and invasion of Northern Iraq to kill Kurds took place after the first Gulf War and when the US, UK and France imposed a no-fly-zone in Northern Iraq to protect the Kurds. The UK and US pilots were ordered back to base to allow the Turks to go into Iraq and bomb, when they had finished the UK and US airplanes were allowed back.

That was Turkey attacking Kurds in Iraq, the last post I gave above was detailing other injustices against Kurds - notably what Turkey has done to Kurds living in Turkey itself.

It's kind of bizare that in a thread where Syrias actions against it's Kurds 50 years ago are highlighted in a 14 year old report, that there isn't more codemnation for more recent attacks against Kurds by Iraq and Turkey since. eh seems more interested in wallowing in denial about Turkey or taking me to task for labelling the UK and US military as 'NATO'.

Cheers,
Shafique

It's kind of bizare that in a thread where Syrias actions against it's Kurds 50 years ago are highlighted in a 14 year old report

The report on Syria's racist laws is as fresh today as it was 14 years ago.

Do you have any relevant news articles by any chance? I did some googling on the discrimination Kurds receive, but I couldn't find any Muslims who actually speak out in defense of the Kurds, as you claim.

Are they as real as the 'quote' of Jesus from the epistle of James?

Did you confirm in your Googling that the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq are being discriminated against and killed - and that these events took place more recently than the events in FD's first post, which I unhestiatingly condemned?

I've told you that when Saddam gassed the Kurds inthe late 80s, I was objecting to this - and I was quite vocal, but there wasn't much condemnation by the West or the Arab/Muslim leaders either. The condemnations came more from ordinary Muslim and other citizens. Notably the Kurds living outside of the area were raising a hue and cry.

I merely invited you to join me in condemning all the injustices committed against the Kurds. Yet you've actually spent most of your posts in this thread disputing the atrocities committed agains them in Turkey and Iraq.

Is it because the Kurds are muslim, or is it because you really want to hate Syria and ignore the facts that Turkey is the one actually killing Kurds (now that Saddam has gone).

(BTW - looking at how Kurds are treated in each country, it appears that Iran is the one who is treating the best.. no discrimination it appears, but quite the contrary - they are protecting Kurdish identity/culture in their laws:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#In_Iran )

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon wrote:

It's kind of bizare that in a thread where Syrias actions against it's Kurds 50 years ago are highlighted in a 14 year old report

The report on Syria's racist laws is as fresh today as it was 14 years ago.

Do you have any relevant news articles by any chance? I did some googling on the discrimination Kurds receive, but I couldn't find any Muslims who actually speak out in defense of the Kurds, as you claim.

Are they as real as the 'quote' of Jesus from the epistle of James?

I take it you join me in condemning the mistreatment Kurds have faced by the Turkish state - but are reluctant to join me in condemning the racist laws against the Kurds in Syria (which are actually current - so more recent).

I'm also happy to read whatever articles highlighting the mistreatment of the Kurds by (non-Kurdish) Muslims you can find on google. So far, I couldn't find any Muslim authors who have highlighted their mistreatment on any popular Islamic website or otherwise.

As for the Kurds, you're clearly not boned up on them as much as you claim. Not all Kurds are Muslim, for instance. So, while you throw out a token condemnation for their mistreatment because they are Muslims, I condemn injustices against the Kurds on humanitarian grounds - although I think your analysis of the Kurdish rebellion in Turkey is quite shallow.