Which Koran Was The One First Written?

Topic locked
  • Reply
Which Koran was the one first written? Jul 02, 2012
I've come to learn that historically there have been different Korans. By different, these Korans have retained the same meaning in their passages but are not literally, word-for-word, identical.

If the Korans are not exactly the same, then I wonder which Koran, if any, was the one angel Gabriel dictated to Muhammad and Muhammad recited to his scribes.

Richard Kroes explains:

Arabic is a 'defective' script: only consonants can be written with it, vowels are omitted. Furthermore, when the Qur'an was codified a script was used in which several consonants shared the same signs. Only 17 signs were used to write 28 consonants. Just 7 signs in this alphabet, called rasm, are unequivocal. About a century after the first compilation of the Qur'an the various consonants were distinguished by adding 'diacritical dots'. From that moment on the five consonants for example that were written with a 'hook' ﺒ b, ﺘ t, ﺜ th, ﻨ n en ﻴ y could be distinguished. Eventually, three centuries later, after some experimenting with systems for the notation of vowels, the vowels were also added.

In 1923 the al-Azhar university in Egypt issued a standard text that is now used worldwide. This standardisation too had its reasons because despite Uthman's standardisation, several versions of the text of the Qur'an developed.

Discussions between traditional Muslims and western scholars of Islam on this topic can run high. On the side of the faithful it is claimed that these only represent the various Arabic dialects or modes of recitation, the qira'at. All 7 (or 10, or 14) are considered canonical. On the side of scholarship however, differences at the level of meaning are recognised.

A good example are the last three words of Q 2:10. In the Egyptian standard edition these are: بِمَا كَانُو ا يَكْذِبُونَ bima kanu yakdhibuna, 'for their persistent lying'. The standard text is based on the text of imam Asim († 744 AD) as transmitted by imam Hafs († 796 AD). It is used in the whole Islamic world, except in North Africa. Here the text of imam Nafi († 785 AD) as transmitted by imam Warsh († 812 AD) is used. In the latter, the same passage runs like this: بِمَا كَانُو ا يُكَذِّبُونَ bima kanu yukadhdhibuna, 'for what they denied'. 'Lying' or 'denying', there is a subtle difference...[4]


http://www.livius.org/opinion/Luxenberg.htm

for their persistent lying vs for what they denied

So, did angel Gabriel say to Muhammad 'for their persistent lying' or 'for what they denied'? Ignoring the 'subtle difference', these two "canonical" Korans are not identical. Word-for-word, Allah's various books have passages which do not literally match each other. How are Muslims to believe the message in the Koran if Allah cannot keep his word that the written Koran will never be altered?

rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 02, 2012
^^You are as thick as pea-soup!
I am sure you would have heard of something called 'belief'.
There are people in your own backyard that still believe that the Earth is flat, and the world was created in 6 days. Thats their belief.
Muslims believe in the current version of the Quran.
I follow no religion myself, but I dont try to convert everyone to my way way of thinking, nor do I troll internet forums ridiculing others beliefs. :roll:
Frequentflier
Dubai forums Addict
User avatar
Posts: 230
Location: Area 51

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran was the one first written? Jul 03, 2012
Unlike the multiple topics that eh/ray refuses to answer (such as Rapture, whether the Pope is the anti-Christ, etc etc) this particular topic has been dealt with thoroughly already:
eg:
The Quran is an Aural revelation which was transmitted Orally - the primary means of transmission was recitation and memorisation.

As such there has only been one version of the Quran - one authentic Arabic set of verses (and here authentic means undisputed).

During the lifetime of the Prophet, the Quranic revelations were recited time and time again and memorised by thousands of people. To this day the number of people having memorised the Quran increases each year.

Written records of the Quran were checked against the memory of people - not the other way round. Arabic writing evolved over time, with different scripts etc. There are mistakes in some transcriptions of the Quran - but because of the fail-safes, none of these mistakes have ever been considered anything but mis-transcriptions (because there is no doubt what the true words were).


What confuses some people is that there are different ways in pronouncing the same Arabic word - i.e. different dialects of Arabic will have different pronunciations. This produced different 'Quirat' or ways of pronouncing the Quran - however in all the words are the same (in meaning).

However, if a non-Arab mispronounces an Arabic word, the danger is that they are changing the meaning. This began to happen in the Khalifa Umar's time - and he took the decision to standardise the written representation of the aural revelation - i.e. compile the standardised Quran - showing how the words are to be pronounced in the Quraish pronunciation of what is known as Fursa/Classical Arabic. Not all of the existing written Qurans were destroyed - some were returned to their owners, but most were.

[The main point is that the Quran had only one set of words, Arab speakers could pronounce them differently without changing the meanings for themselves.]

At the time there were many, many non-Muslims in Arabia and none of these Arab speakers accused the compilers of changing the Quran or doing more than writing down what was memorised. The accusations of variant readings etc came much later and were levelled by 'orientalist' opponents of Islam. (And also note that there were divisions amongst muslims too in this period - Shia/Sunni tensions were in their early stages - and yet there is no dissension on the Quranic revelations).

So the short answer is that there has always been only one aural revelation of the Quran in history. There have been written codices which varied from one another, but these were either phonetic representations of different pronunciations or because of transcriptural errors


philosophy-dubai/quranic-and-biblical-integrity-t25193-60.html

eh/ray appears to be ashamed of his faith:
philosophy-dubai/event-horizon-ashamed-his-faith-t49458.html

and confused over what the Bible teaches:
philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
shafique wrote:What confuses some people is that there are different ways in pronouncing the same Arabic word - i.e. different dialects of Arabic will have different pronunciations. This produced different 'Quirat' or ways of pronouncing the Quran - however in all the words are the same (in meaning).


The author dispels your claim that the different Quirat were merely different pronunciations but different words used for the same verses; resulting in different meanings in some of these verses.

If you want to claim otherwise, you'll have to adress what's actually been written by a real scholar:

A good example are the last three words of Q 2:10. In the Egyptian standard edition these are: بِمَا كَانُو ا يَكْذِبُونَ bima kanu yakdhibuna, 'for their persistent lying'. The standard text is based on the text of imam Asim († 744 AD) as transmitted by imam Hafs († 796 AD). It is used in the whole Islamic world, except in North Africa. Here the text of imam Nafi († 785 AD) as transmitted by imam Warsh († 812 AD) is used. In the latter, the same passage runs like this: بِمَا كَانُو ا يُكَذِّبُونَ bima kanu yukadhdhibuna, 'for what they denied'. 'Lying' or 'denying', there is a subtle difference...[4]


One passage; two different words; two different meanings.

Your missionary claim that the Koran has been preserved from changes is debunked. There were seven to twelve different versions of the written Koran until the 20th century when a committee decided on using the Egyptian Standardised Koran.

shafique wrote:[The main point is that the Quran had only one set of words, Arab speakers could pronounce them differently without changing the meanings for themselves.]


That's an a claim easy to debunk; any Arabic reader can read the North African Koran to the Egyptian Standardised Koran side by side and see differences in the Arabic. For instance:

بِمَا كَانُو ا يَكْذِبُونَ bima kanu yakdhibuna

vs

بِمَا كَانُو ا يُكَذِّبُونَ bima kanu yukadhdhibuna

Both are Arabic Korans; however, any Arabic or non-Arabic reader can notice differences in the texts which come out to subtle differences in meaning.

shafique wrote:At the time there were many, many non-Muslims in Arabia and none of these Arab speakers accused the compilers of changing the Quran or doing more than writing down what was memorised.


You mean, their viewpoints weren't recorded by the victors?

shafique wrote:The accusations of variant readings etc came much later and were levelled by 'orientalist' opponents of Islam


These accusations can be substantiated; just compare one Quirat with another. It wasn't until the 20th century that one of these variant Korans was picked by a committee as the one to be read by all Muslims.

shafique wrote:So the short answer is that there has always been only one aural revelation of the Quran in history.


Now, how could you prove this, exactly? There weren't audio and video recorders centuries ago. It stands to reason Muslims would memorize the version of the Koran they read.

But I note your mental acrobatics. Allah says in the Koran his book will never be altered. Has the written Koran been altered? Were there different versions (Quirat), with different words and sublte meanings, of the same Koran?

Yes or no?
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran was the one first written? Jul 03, 2012
You have already had this question answered for you in the 'Understanding Islam' forum where you have been trolling:
http://forums.understanding-islam.com/s ... ad-recited

You are just a serial troll.

The Quran was an Aural revelation and people memorised and passed it on orally.

This has already been discussed in yet another thread.
philosophy-dubai/did-prophet-muhammad-have-photographic-memory-t46337-15.html#p375729
Interestingly, in India and Africa too the tradition of remembering word perfectly very long traditions is well known, and as Dalrymple explains in 'Nine lives' studies have shown that the illiterate memorisers have much better recall than those who can read and refer to texts.


eh is just grasping at straws (and constructing strawmen) in his desperation to shift focus on to points already demolished in not one, but two fora! Sad boy. :roll:

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
Quite the mental gymnastics: "Allah promises his Koran will never be altered...but...but...but he doesn't actually mean the written Koran!"

I'm impressed.

The responses acknowledge, just as the scholar I quoted says, the written Koran has many versions with actual differences in wording and subtle meaning; making your claim:

shafique wrote:]What confuses some people is that there are different ways in pronouncing the same Arabic word - i.e. different dialects of Arabic will have different pronunciations. This produced different 'Quirat' or ways of pronouncing the Quran - however in all the words are the same (in meaning).


refuted.

Allah did not protect the written Koran; Arabic variants have different words resulting in sublte differences in meaning.

It was decided by a committee of scholars which Koran would become the official Koran. Previously, there were 7 or 9 or 12 different Korans floating around the Muslim world.

Any side-by-side reading of the Korans would reveal these differences.

Your argument on aural revelation and recitation falls remarkably flat. Muslims reading and memorizing their own variant Koran each would have recited something different from each other.

The bottom line is this: Allah was not able to protect the written Arabic Koran. Scholars 13 centuries later needed to decide which Koran should be used by Muslims.

This is fact you cannot dispute.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
I cannot dispute the fact that so far you've lost this argument in three separate threads over 2 fora - I am willing to bet you've lost it on other threads too.

The Quran was an Aural revelation and people memorised and passed it on orally.

Good luck in future attempts at trolling. This one has crashed and burned.

I suggest you sort out the confusion you have over the Bible before you tackle the Quran in future:
philosophy-dubai/biblical-confusion-t47353.html

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran was the one first written? Jul 03, 2012
Note my question has not been asked in the thread you're linking.

I have specifically asked about the written Koran; but since you say you've agreed with the responses, I suppose we can both agree the written Koran has not been perfectly preserved.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
You copied pasted the OP from the other forum. :roll:

As I said, let's focus on your confusion over the Bible first, then perhaps come back to see whether on the 4th or 5th attempt you can understand how God preserved an Aural revelation by ensuring millions memorised it word perfectly each year.

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
Let's start with the promise Allah makes in the Koran and test it with what we know about the differences between the written Korans to see if it has been fulfilled.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
We've dealt with that. God ensured word-perfect preservation of the Aural revelation by the means of memorisation by millions - a living proof that you can go test today. Just ask any one who speaks Arabic - and steer clear of the bloggers who have been leading you astray all these years.

Now, let's tackle your issues with the Bible now. Deal?

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
Really? I think you have not dealth with the written Koran. There are differences not only in word usage but "subtle differences in meaning".

Did Allah prevent millions upon millions of Muslims from reading and believing in these differences their entire lives? How many have memorized one of the faulty Korans?

There've been at least 14 different versions according to Muslim scholars; but, thankfully, a committee in Egypt in 1923 decided which Koran was correct for Muslims to read.
rayznack
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 610
Location: inside

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
Thanks for your post. I refer you to the replies in the other forum, the ones from this forum linked above and my previous two posts.

The offer to help you with your confusion over the Bible remains though.

Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

  • Reply
Re: Which Koran Was The One First Written? Jul 03, 2012
^You're welcome. :D

Cheers,

Shafique
shafique
Dubai Shadow Wolf
User avatar
Posts: 13442

posting in Philosophy and Religion ForumsForum Rules

Return to Philosophy and Religion Forums


cron