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....Or supporters of extremism and hate the West.

Most Westerners are anti-Muslim, pro-Israel and seek to harm the Islamic world.


The above are two complete misapprehensions but views held by people on each side of the argument. How the hell do you cut through this and get some understanding? I fear in the current climate it won't happen. Anyone with the answer would truly be the world's greatest peace-maker

GoodBai wrote:....Or supporters of extremism and hate the West.

Most Westerners are anti-Muslim, pro-Israel and seek to harm the Islamic world.


The above are two complete misapprehensions but views held by people on each side of the argument. How the hell do you cut through this and get some understanding? I fear in the current climate it won't happen. Anyone with the answer would truly be the world's greatest peace-maker

oh Good Bai if u look into the archives of this forum there have been lloads of issues. Why the hell do u bring same thing up again and again?

It's an important issue, therefore I think it should be raised again and again.

People living in/and cocooning around their own culture are invariably going to develop stereotypes about other groups of people.

Westerners, no matter how much we pretend, are not less cocooned than a lot of muslims, around our culture, and that's human nature (you want proof? check abcd's thread).

I think some positive development can be achieved through the communities living together, namely in major metropolises, like London, AMsterdam, Dubai ..etc.

Also through open-minded people seeking true knowledge about "The Other", but that's a farshot.

I think the major blame falls on the shoulders of the media. Never before has been such a concentration of vain and uninteresting people/writers/reporters, so visible more than today in most media outlets.

The masses are ignorant, the elite have the responsibility of ushering everybody forward. Media used to be a medium to educate and enlighten you. But now it's nothing but a tool to further your ignorance and self-centredness.

I bet "yes by Jove " that if some story that would shake people's beliefs reaches some news outlet, the response would be "Oh wait .... people won't like this, and we want to give people what they like!! Shred it!"...... it used to be "This is unbelievable! People must know about this! Integrity!"

Rotten consumerism

I think one main issue is that some Arabs are treating the perceived problems with the West as a religious issue. For example, the US going into Iraq has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with politics and economics.

The moment that both sides use religion to be biased against one another and claim that God is telling them to cleanse the world of non-believers of their faith - there is no more hope, because we'll be back in a situation like the Crusades. That is a ing period in history, and we all should know by now that no one religion is better than another.

kanelli wrote:I think one main issue is that some Arabs are treating the perceived problems with the West as a religious issue. For example, the US going into Iraq has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with politics and economics.

George Bush said God "spoke" to him and told him to go to Iraq... Thats what the crusaders said...

So because George Bush is Christian and he attacked Iraq, that means that all the Western countries who are also mostly Christian want to have a holy war with the Arab world? Give me a f-ing break!

kanelli wrote:So because George Bush is Christian and he attacked Iraq, that means that all the Western countries who are also mostly Christian want to have a holy war with the Arab world? Give me a f-ing break!

Look at Europe banning people from wearing the headscarf in public or in cinemas (like in certain places in Belgium) and like the Dutch are planning... Whats that?

France you mean? I would hardly consider them a good example of cultural understanding. Look at the recent riots! Let social problems fester in immigrant communities and that is what will happen...

I think the main reason for the banning of headscarves was to prevent prejudice. It is deemed too visible a sign of one's religion and could cause problems in a mixed-religion, mixed-cultural setting. Really, it is more for the protection of the Muslims wearing them, because it seems that France is aware that too much visibility of Islam could stir up problems with the non-Islamic citizens - probably the ones with long French ancestry who might feel threatened about an increasing group of immigrants from a different religious background. I belive that this ruling is unfair if Christians and Jews and people of other religions are allowed to wear symbols of their faith. Perhaps it is true that one can hide a cross or star of David on a necklace under one's shirt, but still - fair should be fair. It will be interesting to see what happens with all this banning head scarf business.

I understand that some European countries who had a homogenous culture for hundreds and hundreds of years are struggling with immigration and cultural issues. This is after trying hard to understand, because as a Canadian I don't see anything threatening about different cultures and different religions living together. Europe needs more convincing of that, and immigrants need to be patient, or move elsewhere.

Liban wrote:

kanelli wrote:So because George Bush is Christian and he attacked Iraq, that means that all the Western countries who are also mostly Christian want to have a holy war with the Arab world? Give me a f-ing break!

Look at Europe banning people from wearing the headscarf in public or in cinemas (like in certain places in Belgium) and like the Dutch are planning... Whats that?

French have always been sissy in their culture and demeanor. I am not trying to generalize but if u read their history u will see it's in their blood. French soldiers have been inefficient and had to discipline if they did have the discipline and efficiency like britain they would have built better empire. Now I dont any positive reasons for those morons to ban head scarf. one hand they talk about secularism other hand they take off the freedom to wear scarf and turban etc... those sissys will run again (they gave up Paris 2 god damn times in first and second world war without even firing a bullet!) taking there @sses off if there was any third world war.

I think the main reason for the banning of headscarves was to prevent prejudice. It is deemed too visible a sign of one's religion and could cause problems in a mixed-religion, mixed-cultural setting.

The solution to keep "safety" in a multi-cultural society, is to force one unique group of people to look like the majority?? I fail to see the logic.

Really, it is more for the protection of the Muslims wearing them, because it seems that France is aware that too much visibility of Islam could stir up problems with the non-Islamic citizens - probably the ones with long French ancestry who might feel threatened about an increasing group of immigrants from a different religious background

This is your interpretation, but I disagree.... They banned the headscarf to protect muslims? Muslims don't really need protection, they are a big and thriving sector of French society.

What you're basically saying that instead of educating the "original" french (are you implying that a "new" french is less of a citizen?) about tolerance, the solution would be to ban muslims from practicing their religion?

If the french have allowed immigrants under the premise of eqaulity and secularism, then they should maintain their promise.

I belive that this ruling is unfair if Christians and Jews and people of other religions are allowed to wear symbols of their faith.

Wearing a cross or the star of david is not a religious duty. Headscarf is.

I understand that some European countries who had a homogenous culture for hundreds and hundreds of years are struggling with immigration and cultural issues

I'm a European (Of a pure Scandinavian lineage). Nevertheless, my motto has always been : "You can't change the rules of the game, once it has begun"

It's criminal to allow people in, promising them freedom of practice and equality, then discriminate against them and FORCE them to integrate when you clearly think of them as less than you are.

I think a solution is to stop immigration to Europe. I mean the initial reason was rebuilding after WW2, and that has long ended, so closing down the doors of immigration -because society can't take it- is more fair than screweing the ones you already have.

Just my two cents

I really struggle with intolerant societies. I know it is natural for people of one kind to stick together, but we are supposed to be well educated and beyond that basic animal instinct.

I lived in a European country and I feel that it isn't the place for me to spend the rest of my days. I don't thrive in a homogenous culture, even though I looked the part where I was living.

We came to the UAE for a cultural experience and of course, financial gain after struggling with huge student loans and high taxes in Europe. I feel fortunate to live in an Arab country where I can see really what it is like in the society here. (And I hope to travel to other neighbouring Arab countries too.) After this we'll head back to Canada, because that is the country that suits me best (don't know about my husband ). Sure, Canada has some racism and there is religious tension when it comes to issues like banning the Lord's Prayer from the morning announcements in schools, and trying to ban turbans in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police force etc. You'll find this kind of struggle in any country that is made up of many cultures and religions - but I think Canada does a much better job dealing with this than most European countries.

Sniper, be careful about bashing the French as wussies. Canada isn't exactly known as a military power, and we focus on peace-keeping, which many might consider wussy-ish

kanelli wrote:I really struggle with intolerant societies. I know it is natural for people of one kind to stick together, but we are supposed to be well educated and beyond that basic animal instinct.

I lived in a European country and I feel that it isn't the place for me to spend the rest of my days. I don't thrive in a homogenous culture, even though I looked the part where I was living.

We came to the UAE for a cultural experience and of course, financial gain after struggling with huge student loans and high taxes in Europe. I feel fortunate to live in an Arab country where I can see really what it is like in the society here. (And I hope to travel to other neighbouring Arab countries too.) After this we'll head back to Canada, because that is the country that suits me best (don't know about my husband ). Sure, Canada has some racism and there is religious tension when it comes to issues like banning the Lord's Prayer from the morning announcements in schools, and trying to ban turbans in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police force etc. You'll find this kind of struggle in any country that is made up of many cultures and religions - but I think Canada does a much better job dealing with this than most European countries.

Sniper, be careful about bashing the French as wussies. Canada isn't exactly known as a military power, and we focus on peace-keeping, which many might consider wussy-ish

Well Fremch are causing trouble in Canada, first they want to seperate, they made the poor chretein cry. they opened and have so many gay s and lesbos, and lastley recently they legalized orgy party.

Sniper, you are really stirring the pot now!

Whats with the "Turbans" ? Muslims don't wear turbans anymore, they stopped 300-400 years ago.

What you see in Dubai (the locals) is the traditional gulf outfit, and they don't usually wear it abroad.

The only ones who wear turbans are the Sikhs, which is a religion majorly from India.

Are you referring to the headscarf? Because that's called "Hijab" I think.

I knew I'd get jumped on about the new vs old French. It is the old French that would have more of a problem with less cultural and religous purity than the new French. I don't get what your problem is with that statement.

Why is it hard to understand that the French would want to make everyone look the same so that no one is discrimated against? Yes, not wearing a headscarf would protect a Muslim woman from attracting attention from religiously biased people.

I'm well aware that the head scarf is a different issue to the cross or star of David etc.

Yes, I was talking about Sihks. You may not be aware, but there was big controversy in Canada in the 90's because a young Sihk man wanted to wear his turban with is RCMP uniform. The RCMP are Canada's pride, and they have a very distinct uniform. Wearing a turban would alter the uniform, and some people were wondering why the man just couldn't conform to the uniform instead of standing out from everyone else. I didn't see the big deal, but many people to this day are divided about it. In the end, it was determined that Sihks could wear their turbans. It looks good actually - they use the black ones with their regular uniform, and tan coloured ones with the dress uniform, so it doesn't really wreck the look of the uniform in any way. More importantly, it doesn't affect his work and he can keep his religious obligation. A happy compromise in my opinion.

I knew I'd get jumped on about the new vs old French. It is the old French that would have more of a problem with less cultural and religous purity than the new French. I don't get what your problem is with that statement.

Simple. If the French as a society were that "sectored" into new and old, and incapable of granting equal rights (socially and legally) to immigrants, then they shouldn't have allowed immigrants in the first place. But to allow them then bash them is what I have a problem with.

I can respect a society wanting to remain homogenous, but to pretend it's not, and wreck people's beliefs in the process is what I'm against.

Why is it hard to understand that the French would want to make everyone look the same so that no one is discrimated against? Yes, not wearing a headscarf would protect a Muslim woman from attracting attention from religiously biased people.

I believe that the correct way to counter/respond to biased people is by education and law, not by indulging their bias on the expense of the minority.

But that's just me.

and some people were wondering why the man just couldn't conform to the uniform instead of standing out from everyone else

Because these "some people" fail to see the importance of religious duties to other people.

I agree with you Linda.

Despite what many of us would consider a stupid and intolerant ruling on head scarves, do the French deserve to be killed over it? Some Islamic extremists would say yes, and that is wrong!

If people feel they are being biased against in Europe, and they don't have the patience and persistence to try to change attitudes - they should leave to a more open society, or to a country they feel they have more in common with (perhaps ancenstral home country?) It always takes time for people to change - look at how long it took the world to give women a chance to vote. Is some countries women still can't vote. If the women are happy that way, fine, but if they aren't - the change needed to accomplish their goal needs to be worked on.

------------------------------------------------------

Here is an interesting article about the US.

Do we just love to hate them? David's friend Goliath.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... 331&page=0

My opinion is that this piece doesn't deal adequately with the fact that big business has a large role in manipulating foreign policy. However, there are some good points there, and the US being the large power that it is has had a positive influence on the world in many ways. The author, Michael Mandelbaum, is an expert in this area and has done more reading than I have, so I can't totally pick him to pieces.

What do you guys think?

Simplistic and relishing the fact that the US is most powerful.

The notion that since there is no anti-US coalition, then the people of the world must be secretly enjoying the US patronage is beyond silly.

I've read many articles by equally self-deceiving "commentators".

Whats with your infatuation with "Islamic Extremists!!!!" ? Don't worry, you're canadian, Canada has had no hand in any Arab/Muslim catastrophe, no body will bomb Toronto soon.

Nobody said that the French should be killed for banning Hijab, it's their country and they can decide whatever suits them (irrespective of my feelings towards that decision).

How about some examples of anybody calling out to kill the French? Don't presume, that's dangerous (and I hope you're not referring to the idiotic Abu Hamza piece in 7Days)

George Bush said God "spoke" to him and told him to go to Iraq... Thats what the crusaders said...

Oh, pleeeeez! Don't categorise everyone according to his statements. Don't you guys have friends whose religion, race, nationality etc are different to your own? Yes, I do. Who gives a flying fish? Some people are nice and some are not- it has nothing to do with race, religion, nationality, gender or how big their car is!! End of story.

Sorry, keep referring to extremists because they are the ones calling for Westerners to die every time there is an offence against their religion, or a political or economic offence against their country. There is an increasing tendency for some Muslims who are against the policies of some Western governments to take up extremism, and this is a threat to peace and security. Everyone should be concerned about this.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/ ... 8832.shtml

http://www.alwayson-network.com/comment ... 52_0_6_0_C

I'm not saying that all Muslims called for aggression against non-Muslim French citizens. Many Muslims have followed the ban without complaint - wearing the scarf when not on school property.

Here's an interesting article too, What the French Ban on Head Scarves Says About France
By Sarah A. Curtis
http://hnn.us/articles/printfriendly/7442.html

There are extremists in every religion and there are non-religious nutters as well. Why single out one religion or for that matter race or for that matter nationality or for that matter country????

Are you claiming that the 7Days article was misleading about Abu Hamza? Here are some other articles that report on videos that prove he was inciting hatred. Who cares whether the media outlets reporting are from the West, there are videos to prove it and people have viewed these, or are you suggesting that all of this is fabricated?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... altop.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europ ... ain.hamza/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3752517.stm

http://www.cbc.ca/national/news/recruit ... rview.html - in this interview he totally blurrs politics and religion. The US did not invade Afghanistan or Iraq on religious grounds to humilate those nations! He is very contradictory, with words saying we aren't a target, yet other words that imply that we are. Which is it?

A small sample of links to support my claim that Islamic extremism seems to be increasing in Western countries.

In Australia
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/conten ... 516896.htm

In Canada
http://www.canada.com/national/national ... 222&page=1

In USA
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040 ... -6221r.htm

In Europe
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe ... _jihadist/

BUT, I found this encouraging. Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics
Support for Terror Wanes Among Muslim Publics
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

GAB wrote:There are extremists in every religion and there are non-religious nutters as well. Why single out one religion or for that matter race or for that matter nationality or for that matter country????

Have you been reading any of these recent threads and posts, or did you just skip to the last page of this discussion and then post?

EDIT: Okay, I did see your previous posts now. Sorry!

In any case, your comment is very basic and if you were reading carefully you'd see why we are talking in particular about Islamic extremism. It is not a bias on my part, because I am well aware of other extremist groups - they just aren't relevant to this current discussion.

Basic?? A little insulting. But if the shoe fits I'll wear it happily. I just find that this sort of posting is pot stirring and antagonostic-my basic, naive view.

Lets stop talking about Islamic extremism right now.

The greatest number of atrocities in history were commited by Christians and Jews. Muslims are a distant third. So please get off your high horses and look at your own bretheren for a change...

Liban, are you implying that because Christians and Jews were cruel and barbaric in the past, that it is now okay for Islam to have a go?

Why am I getting the flack for discussing the exact topic that this thread first brought up? I didn't start this thread by the way.

I've made it pretty clear that not all Muslims are extremists, so agree with the original poster that that is a stereotype. What I am saying based on some evidence from professionals and people keeping an eye on the situation, is that Islamic extremism seems to be increasing in Western countries, and this is something we should all be concerned about.

I'll be quiet now because obviously the politically correct squad and living back in history squad are here to shut me down.

kanelli wrote:Liban, are you implying that because Christians and Jews were cruel and barbaric in the past, that it is now okay for Islam to have a go?

Why am I getting the flack for discussing the exact topic that this thread first brought up? I didn't start this thread by the way.

I've made it pretty clear that not all Muslims are extremists, so agree with the original poster that that is a stereotype. What I am saying based on some evidence from professionals and people keeping an eye on the situation, is that Islamic extremism seems to be increasing in Western countries, and this is something we should all be concerned about.

I'll be quiet now because obviously the politically correct squad and living back in history squad are here to shut me down.

Its a bit like banging your own head on a brick wall Kanelli.

-Sigh-

It's really sad the obvious degree of rabid fear people have... but then again, looking at the media and it's unholy mission nowadays, I'm not surprised.

Kanelli, none of what you mentioned is "evidence", articles reflecting their writers' personal opinion are not "Evidence".

Who's the most notorius "terrorist"? And I don't mean some chickenshit like Abu Hamza, but someone who had actually got the capability/will/track record of carrying out deadly attacks?

Bin Laden right? It's interesting, but I was witnessing a pseudo-debate the other day between an annoying American soccer mom, and this Brit reporter in Dubai that works for the BBC, and when the lady said something like : Islamic extremists want all westerners to die, the reporter put his foot down and said: I'm sorry Mrs.xxxxx , but no where in any press release/theological "sermon" has any of those groups called for killing westerners.

And she says: Oh yeah? What about the westerners dying in Iraq and in housing complexes in Saudi Arabia?

And his reply (which I found to be golden) was : There's a difference between legitimizing killing ANY western for the mere purpose of eradicating westerners, and between using western individuals -in hot zones- as pawns of political pressure against governments. Yes the latter is terrorism as well, but it has been used by most political movements -I add : including American revolutionaries- , and we never said that the IRA wanted the eradication of all Brits because of a bombing in London.

And I think that that is an important distinction. A lot of westerners (apparently including you Kanelli) seem to think that a brand of muslims (that is growing) just views any blonde-blue-eyed person as a legitimate enemy who's killing would only get them closer to Heaven.

I'm sorry, but no one is that way.

When you recite stuff from the media, opinions and what not, you're doing exactly what I've been complaining about. Namely : The villification of muslims in the media. Yes sure everybody will say :"Oh no, we just mean the fundamentalists!!" but in a lower tone will continue to say/imply : "But they are growing and it seems that most disgruntled muslims are good candidates to be become extremist".

Nothing is further from the truth.

I know that this is something that is usually never discussed in the media, but I'll put it forward nevertheless: The general Muslim public shares these same concerns (of which MOST are are legitimate and valid) with what we call "Terrorists". It is the way the two parties act upon it that is different. And we should draw that line.

Being anti-war on Iraq, didn't mean that that person was pro-Saddam (Although for some news outlets, that was the motto for a while).

Similarly, being anti-western policy, doesn't necessarily mean Pro-Terrorism.

I'll say it again, being anti-western policy, doesn't necessarily mean Pro-Terrorism.


I'm repeating it because it seems that once anybody critisizes the West in anyway, he/she is looked upon as someone either extremist, or on the way to extremism.

And by the way Kanelli, if the media and the media people were so accurate and unbiased in their opinion, there wouldn't be such a gap betweem european/american populations and the Arab/Islamic ones.

Do your own "excavation", talk to the people and listen to their concerns. This forum is a good place to start.

I recommend the books :"Silent no more" by Paul Findley (any of his books would be good).

Any of the recent books by Noam Chomsky.

And "Orientalism" by Edward Saeed. As a matter of fact, I have some of Edward Saeed recorded "lectures" on the computer, if you have P2P like e-mule or any other similar program, I'd be happy to upload it to you. It's very insightful.

Lets stop talking about Islamic extremism right now.

Yee haa to that!!

Thank you Linda

I'm sorry if you are getting the impression that I mean this:
"I'll say it again, being anti-western policy, doesn't necessarily mean Pro-Terrorism." - a quote from your last post. I really didn't feel that I was claiming that anywhere.

I simply can't believe that the West is evil because I am from the West and I have no ill intention towards others, and do not support injustices to others. I also don't believe that the media in the West is too biased to be reliable as a source of valid information. All media has a slant, including the media coming from Arab countries, but ultimately, there are truths in there.

I still don't think I am wrong about more Muslims, particularly in the West, moving into the extremist end of the spectrum due to events like the invasion of Iraq, and problems with relations when living in European communities. Are all the news outlets really getting it wrong? Where are all the articles and expert opinions that say otherwise? I already posted one link to an opinion poll that showed that support for terrorist attacks was dwindling in many Arab nations, but couldn't find anything refuting my claim that Islamic extremism was growing in Western countries.

These discussions are very useful for me because I need to see other perspectives and need to get over any biases or misconceptions that I have. In the end it will make me a better and more understanding person.

Sorry Linda, I don't have p2p - but would be interested to read some books or articles that you suggest.

If anyone has useful links or info related to busting up the myths that were given in the original thread, please feel free to list them.