Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers

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Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 05, 2010
Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talks Ill Of Unbelievers. Calls For Violent Conquest.

July 26, 2010

AN INVENTED TALE [Excerpts]

Every now and then you hear calls from critics of Islam for Islam to reform itself--for mosques and madrassas to teach against the Islamic doctrines that inspire terrorists. A dramatic example of this demand occurs in the film Fitna when Geert Wilders invites Muslims to tear the offending pages out of the Koran. In one scene you can hear the sound of tearing pages in the background.

If thy page offend thee, pluck it out? The only trouble with this sort of recommendation is that it assumes that there is enough positive material in the Koran and other foundational documents to form the basics for a reformation. But is there?

According to Moorthy Muthuswamy, an expert on political Islam, "61 percent of the Koran talks ill of unbelievers or calls for their violent conquest and subjugation, but only 2.6 percent talks about the overall good of humanity." Hmmm. Seems as though that would amount to an awful lot of offending pages.

It's a similar story when you turn to the sira, the biographies of Muhammad. Take the earliest of these, the one written by Ibn Ishaq. Of the 130 short chapters which detail the life of Muhammad after his arrival in Medina, over 70 are about raids, battles, and assassinations or else they are about preparations for raids and battles, division of spoils, odes upon battles, names of those who fought, etc. According to a content analysis done by Bill Warner of the Center for the Study of Political Islam, at least 75% of the sira is about jihad. These are inconvenient facts for those who hope Islam can be reformed. No matter how reform-minded you may be, it is difficult to come up with a symbolic interpretation of the Koran's numerous calls to make war on unbelievers, since that was literally what Muhammad did.

So, rather than encourage Muslims to remove the violent and hateful parts of the Koran, it might make more sense to encourage them to renounce it in toto. The "good" parts of the Koran are so bound up with the "bad" parts that trying to separate them is an impossible task. Besides, there is no warrant in Islamic tradition for picking and choosing. Islamic authorities say that the Koran given to Muhammad is a replica of the original which is inscribed on "imperishable" tablets in heaven. And, just for the record, "imperishable" beats "set in stone" by a wide margin. Talking of reforming Islam by re-interpreting the Koran is like talking about reforming a marble statue. Some things don't lend themselves to reformation.


http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/s ... og-386981/

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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 05, 2010
According to Moorthy Muthuswamy, an expert on political Islam, "61 percent of the Koran talks ill of unbelievers or calls for their violent conquest and subjugation, but only 2.6 percent talks about the overall good of humanity."


Well, you know me and stats - bring it on.

I suspect this is another loon exaggeration - but hey, we have a pretty specific number here - so let's see which verses are being put into what category. I suspect this is another classic case of smoke and mirrors.

eh - please provide a link to which verses he is classifying as 'speaking ill of disbelievers' and which verses are for the benefit of mankind etc (I mean 2.6% is pretty specific).

How many of the verses are the ones which say what punishment will befall disbelievers at the hands of God? (i.e. going to hell etc) And why not count the equivalent verses which talk about the rewards the believers will get?

When we see the detail, we'll probably discover he's been disingenous and padded out the numbers of verses which talk about fighting oppressors etc. Strip out the verses talking about rewards and punishments in the afterlife and we'll get to see whether his arguments that Islam tenets are primarily violent stands up to scrutiny.

It sure smells like a classic loon argument: let's define some groupings to make Islam look bad and come up with some scary headlines and hope no one notices it is all smoke and mirrors.

Given that there are around 6200 verses of the Quran - he has counted around 3800 verses which 'speak ill of disbelievers etc' and only 160 verses which speak of good for all mankind. (I'm rounding the figures).

Can we get a list of his categorisations - or is this going to be another one of the questions that loons run away from?


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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 05, 2010
:happy1:
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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 06, 2010
Do you deny that the Koran overwhelmingly speaks of unbelievers in negative terms ?
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 06, 2010
Young loon - you quote stats, I ask for evidence behind those stats.

Show the evidence.

(and please re-read my post above)

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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 06, 2010
Ask the author for the evidence.

But do you deny the gist of the article - that the overwhelming majority of the passages in the Koran which refer to unbelievers talks ill of them but only a small fraction speaks of unbelievers in positive terms (and there, there is a caveat that the Jews and Christians who are spoken well of are 'true believers', uncorrupted by the teachings held in mainstream Judaism and Christianity)
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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 06, 2010
I do actually deny the gist of the article - I gave my suspicion that this was another example of loon smoke and mirrors.

Seems I was right.

All Mouth, No Trousers - yet another loon headline that crumbles with a cursory look beyond the headlines.

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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 06, 2010
Damn, finisned in 4 posts. This thread is no fun !
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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 06, 2010
shafique wrote:I do actually deny the gist of the article - I gave my suspicion that this was another example of loon smoke and mirrors.

Seems I was right.

All Mouth, No Trousers - yet another loon headline that crumbles with a cursory look beyond the headlines.

Cheers,
Shafique


Really ?

I'll be happy to look at all the passages in the Koran that speak ill of unbelievers and look at the passages that talk well of unbelievers.

After all, that's the gist of the article:

If thy page offend thee, pluck it out? The only trouble with this sort of recommendation is that it assumes that there is enough positive material in the Koran and other foundational documents to form the basics for a reformation. But is there?


My guess is that there are a few passages in the Koran that seemingly talk well of unbelievers ... in a sea of intolerance and hatred.

And, to no surprise of any non-Muslim, the few 'good' verses are often taken out of context or have certain caveats that do not make them binding for all non-Muslims.
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 07, 2010
So, no evidence is forthcoming - just the loon exaggerations.

You're predictable, young one, I'll give you that.

So much for 61% then. sigh.

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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 07, 2010
In other words, you don't want to find out if the vast majority of passages in the Koran speak ill of unbelievers, rather than talk positively of non-Muslims.

I understand that.

It would be bad PR.

Islam is peace, donchya know ?
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 07, 2010
I do actually want to find out whether the loon headlines match reality, that is why I asked for the evidence.

Duh.

:)

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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 08, 2010
Ok, I'll start with intolerance and cruelty and link to the skeptics annotated quran.

You should have no problem countering these passages with 'good' verses.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

Oh, and let's not forget the Koran on violence and cruelty:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran ... /long.html

Seems like two long lists.

Perhaps there's a better method.

I'll find an intolerant, violent or cruel passage from the Koran that relates to unbelievers. You can provide a 'good' verse that also relates to unbelievers.

They will then 'cancel' each other out (I know this isn't sound interpretation, but it would show whether these a huge discrepancy between the 'good' and 'bad' passages in the Koran).

First verse - Do not take unbelievers as friends, or you'll become an unbeliever:

5:051 O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. God guides not the people of the evildoers.
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 08, 2010
I'm still waiting for the evidence that 3800 verses or 61% of the Quran are 'speaking ill' etc.

SAQ lists about 1000 verses and there are verses which are in multiple categories. I haven't counted them in detail - have you?. I would also be over-the-moon if this what the author used as his evidence (as most of the verses that are supposedly intolerant are just speaking of the punishment in the after-life).

Do you have any evidence that the author used SAQ's categorisations? Or are you plucking arguments out of your .... again?

(I'm happy to separately discuss God's descriptions of what happens to sinners etc in the Quran and get your views about what your objections are to God punishing those that go against His laws - but I first want to find out whether this 61% is a loon fantasy as I suspect it is).

When you dig up some evidence of the list of 3800 verses, let me know.

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Re: Sixty-One Percent of the Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 08, 2010
bawk bawk bawk
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 08, 2010
Indeed. All mouth, no trousers.
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 26, 2010
shafique wrote:Indeed. All mouth, no trousers.


philosophy-dubai/koran-positive-negative-talk-non-believers-t42807-15.html

Happy to prove otherwise.
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Re: Sixty-One Percent Of The Koran Talk Ill Of Unbelievers Aug 26, 2010
Go on then, prove that 61% or even more than 50% of verses talk ill of unbelievers.

Otherwise, 'All Mouth, No Trousers'

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